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Introducing Christian Doctrine by Millard Erickson

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Jarthur001

Active Member
skypair said:
ABSLOUTELY!!! But omnipotence is just like authority or sovereignty --- delegating some of your power or authority or sovereignty in no way diminishes them though it does diminish your responsibility for their use! That, indeed, is how evil entered into the earth.

And is God not free to entrust His authority to whom He will? Read John 8:9-10. It's a lesson on authority by Jesus that many ignore. Did Jesus have to go heal the centurion's son Himself? No, He could delegate it.

And what did Jesus say about the centurion who understood this? Oh, yeah -- "I have not seen so great a faith..." I'd like to quote Him on another occasion at this point --- "Oh, ye of little faith!"

skypair

Skypair,

I would have to disagree that omnipotence is the same thing as sovereignty.

We cannot confound the attributes and or essence of God, making them all mean the same thing, which would be equivalent to denying them all together.

The Nominalists, said that general terms used to describe God are mere words and formed only in the human mind. And consequently when we speak of different attributes in God, we only use different words for one and the same thing.
 

Jarthur001

Active Member
skypair said:
Why not consider God, Who is One, to be the Personification of all Truth? Essences and attributes are all part of Truth

When we get to the Bema (1Cor 3), what are the "wood, hay, and stubble" that are burned with fire? Man's wisdom, man's thoughts, and man's glory -- or untruth. Untruth cannot reside with God.

skypair

Why not?

It has alot to do with the truth.

Sorry about that.
 

skypair

Active Member
Jarthur001 said:
We cannot confound the attributes and or essence of God, making them all mean the same thing, which would be equivalent to denying them all together.
I believe what you are saying is that there are innumerable truths contained in the thought "all Truth."

I believe what I am trying to do is distinguish between Father and Holy Spirit here. God is all Truth --- the Spirit is the knowledge, emotions, and will under which we would find your "God" attributes and essences.

It would be a similar arrangement as our soul and spirit. The "orientation" of our soul is the overaching truth of our lives which "inform"/guide the activities of our spirits. Of course, the other thing that informs and guides the spirit is the lie -- the flesh. But with righteousness of God in our souls, we have the 1) assurance of heaven and the 2) potential for godly living in an 'untoward generation.'

To use another example -- think about reconciling your checking account like being "reconciled to God." You take the new statement you have from the bank ("the God of truth" enters your life at salvation) and your begin to reconcile all your checks to the statement (in much the same way as you reconcile your thoughts and motives to what God says). Is that good? It takes a long time to reconcile your checkbook but it takes a lifetime and then some (the Bema) for a complete reconciliation of your spirit with "all Truth."

skypair
 
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tinytim

<img src =/tim2.jpg>
Jarthur001 said:
Skypair,

I would have to disagree that omnipotence is the same thing as sovereignty.

We cannot confound the attributes and or essence of God, making them all mean the same thing, which would be equivalent to denying them all together.

The Nominalists, said that general terms used to describe God are mere words and formed only in the human mind. And consequently when we speak of different attributes in God, we only use different words for one and the same thing.

It may help for the readers to see what you mean by attributes, and what you mean by essence

Can you give us a list of the attributes?
Then a list of the things you believe makes up the essence of God?

This way, we can have something tangible on this thread to debate.

Skypair, I understand what you are saying about sovereignity and delegation...

Here is the way I see it... God is sovereign... He is in control.... Yes I beleive they are the same thing.. we may differ on this...

but if God delegates some responsiblities to us... he is still in control.

If I Own a business and delegate my authority to an employee, I haven't lost control of the company...
And if something goes wrong, I will have to stand responsible.

Also, when you were talking about being reconciled with God, are you saying that we will have to wait until judgement to be fully reconciled?
I thought Christ did that already, and the moment we were saved, God judicially reconcilled our debts to him based on Christ's payment on calvary. That may be a good debate to look forward to the week we discuss Salvation.
 

tinytim

<img src =/tim2.jpg>
skypair said:
BTW, I don't think delving into the "deism-theism" of man advances us in understanding of the issues raised in the OP.

skypair

I am not for sure who you are throwing that at, but may I remind you that I brought the subject of deism and theism up.. .and since this is my thread... (cosponsored with TCGreek,and Reformed) I can do it...

Also, if you have read the the OP, you will realize that this thread runs parallel with the class I am auditing, and others from my class are looking on...

So with that said, in class the other night we were given out charts from Geisler, and on these charts was listed the difference between theism and deism according to Geisler...

So, in keeping with the spirit of my OP.. I asked this, because some of the students may want to see this from different theologians perspective...

If you have a problem with the things I bring up on my own thread, don't participate...
Also, don't put down other posters because they happen to have degrees,

Your comment about AA "ever learning" was uncalled for.

Either play nice, or I am asking you to not participate on this thread.
 

Frogman

<img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr
Skypair,
your posts are not improving. If you want to continue in this present discussion please do not do so through feigned personal attacks. Your post citing scripture referring to those who 'ever learn and never come to the knowledge of the truth' is viewed by myself and others as a personal attack on AA.

Please discontinue this course or I will begin to actively monitor your posts to this thread and edit them as needed.

Whether you are in disagreement with what is being stated in this thread is not the question. It is a discussion of differences, not an argumentation to disprove, simply an educational discussion. you can participate in such a discussion, civily.

If not, I will not hesitate to delete any personal attacks as I see them posted. Count this as a warning to yourself and anyone else who would use this particular link to further attacks against other posters.

bro. Dallas:wavey:
 

tinytim

<img src =/tim2.jpg>
I have always thought that Omnipotence and Sovereignity were the same thing...

Can someone please show me the difference?
Erickson lists his omnipotence under infinity. He is infinite when dealing with space, time, knowledge, and power.
 
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Frogman

<img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr
Dear TinyTim,
I don't know about differences in omnipotence and sovereignty. But I think I understand skypair's example of reconciling the checkbook. We are now reconciled to God, in his view, we do this progressively as we study and grow in knowledge. The fullness of that reconciliation is never realized in this present body which in the flesh remains sinful, thus we are taught to 'let this mind be in us' that was in Christ, at the resurrection, all will be reconciled to a degree that what we as individuals may hold that is not truth will be shown and that which is truth, will be ours, thus, a full reconciliation.

hope that helps,
bro. Dallas:wavey: :wavey:
 

The Archangel

Well-Known Member
tinytim said:
I have always thought that Omnipotence and Sovereignity were the same thing...

Can someone please show me the difference?
I'm not sure that there is a difference, per se. I think they are two sides of the same coin.

First, the scripture describes God as both absolutely sovereign and absolutely omnipotent. The Isaiah 46 passage I have been quoting says as much.

I think, though, these two concepts cannot be discussed as theoretical and I think they must be discussed only in relation to God, since that is how the Bible relates the concepts.

Rhetoricians will have a field day with this quote, but here goes: God is sovereign because He is omnipotent and He is omnipotent because He is sovereign.

Both attributes are His because He is those things (as revealed in the Bible) by nature.

If I had to choose a "head's up" or primary side of the coin, it would be God's sovereignty. He is absolutely sovereign and does whatever He pleases and, because He is omnipotent, He has every and all power to actually accomplish that which He desires to do.

Many Blessings,

The Archangel
 

tinytim

<img src =/tim2.jpg>
Frogman said:
Dear TinyTim,
I don't know about differences in omnipotence and sovereignty. But I think I understand skypair's example of reconciling the checkbook. We are now reconciled to God, in his view, we do this progressively as we study and grow in knowledge. The fullness of that reconciliation is never realized in this present body which in the flesh remains sinful, thus we are taught to 'let this mind be in us' that was in Christ, at the resurrection, all will be reconciled to a degree that what we as individuals may hold that is not truth will be shown and that which is truth, will be ours, thus, a full reconciliation.

hope that helps,
bro. Dallas:wavey: :wavey:

It does help, it is what I would call progressive sanctification... we are all being reconciled daily to be more like Christ.. slowly changed into His image.
 

tinytim

<img src =/tim2.jpg>
The Archangel said:
I'm not sure that there is a difference, per se. I think they are two sides of the same coin.

First, the scripture describes God as both absolutely sovereign and absolutely omnipotent. The Isaiah 46 passage I have been quoting says as much.

I think, though, these two concepts cannot be discussed as theoretical and I think they must be discussed only in relation to God, since that is how the Bible relates the concepts.

Rhetoricians will have a field day with this quote, but here goes: God is sovereign because He is omnipotent and He is omnipotent because He is sovereign.

Both attributes are His because He is those things (as revealed in the Bible) by nature.

If I had to choose a "head's up" or primary side of the coin, it would be God's sovereignty. He is absolutely sovereign and does whatever He pleases and, because He is omnipotent, He has every and all power to actually accomplish that which He desires to do.

Many Blessings,

The Archangel

Yes the fallacy of my illustration with the owner and employee is easily seen, since God has no one he is responsible to..:tonofbricks:
 

The Archangel

Well-Known Member
tinytim said:
Yes the fallacy of my illustration with the owner and employee is easily seen, since God has no one he is responsible to..:tonofbricks:
Take heart, my friend...it was a valiant attempt. I see the point in your analogy and I think it is a good one. Having said that, I do not think the analogy works where God is concerned (His sovereignty and His omnipotence and as you rightly said, He is responsible to no one). But, where we are concerned, certainly there is (and must be) someone at whom the proverbial buck stops.

Many Blessings,

The Archangel
 

TCGreek

New Member
tinytim said:
I have always thought that Omnipotence and Sovereignity were the same thing...

Can someone please show me the difference?
Erickson lists his omnipotence under infinity. He is infinite when dealing with space, time, knowledge, and power.

1. In his Christian Theology, 2nd ed., Erickson says, "God's infinity may also be considered in relationship to what is traditionally referred to as the omnipotence of God. By this we mean that God is able to do all things that are proper objects of his power" (p. 302).

2. While Erickson doesn't have a heading treating the Sovereignty of God separately, his thoughts on the sovereignty of God would fit under God's Infinity. Here's what he says about the sovereignty of God:

"He is the Creator and Lord of all things, and consequently he is free to do whatever he wills. He is not subject to or answerable to anyone. Humans are in on position to judge God for what he does"(p. 928).
 
I'll take a stab at the differences between sovereignty and omnipotence. A sovereign... and God being the only true sovereign, could delegate His authority and use His standing as sovereign to cause His subjects to use their power to accomplish any task. A human sovereign or king ( I hate to use the word sovereign, because all humans still have God to answer to) could use the resources at his disposal to be quite powerful.
God, by definition, is completely full of all His attributes. He does not need resources to be completely full of power. He is all powerful in Himself. Omnipotent. God, by definition, is the only true sovereign ( has no one to answer to). So God ( as sovereign) has the ability to use all the resources at His disposal to be all powerful, or He can simply use His attribute of being all powerful ( completely full of power) and rely upon nothing but His omnipotence.
I'm still not sure that is sufficient to describe the difference, yet simularity of sovereign and omnipotence.
 

TCGreek

New Member
reformedbeliever said:
I'll take a stab at the differences between sovereignty and omnipotence. A sovereign... and God being the only true sovereign, could delegate His authority and use His standing as sovereign to cause His subjects to use their power to accomplish any task. A human sovereign or king ( I hate to use the word sovereign, because all humans still have God to answer to) could use the resources at his disposal to be quite powerful.
God, by definition, is completely full of all His attributes. He does not need resources to be completely full of power. He is all powerful in Himself. Omnipotent. God, by definition, is the only true sovereign ( has no one to answer to). So God ( as sovereign) has the ability to use all the resources at His disposal to be all powerful, or He can simply use His attribute of being all powerful ( completely full of power) and rely upon nothing but His omnipotence.
I'm still not sure that is sufficient to describe the difference, yet simularity of sovereign and omnipotence.

Here's a question, RB:

Is the omnipotence of God in the service of His Sovereignty?
 
TCGreek said:
Here's a question, RB:

Is the omnipotence of God in the service of His Sovereignty?

Yes, I think so TC. Because God is sovereign, He has to be completely full of all His attributes. If He had to look anywhere other than Himself to fulfill any of His attributes, would He be sovereign?
 

Jarthur001

Active Member
tinytim said:
I have always thought that Omnipotence and Sovereignity were the same thing...

Can someone please show me the difference?
Erickson lists his omnipotence under infinity. He is infinite when dealing with space, time, knowledge, and power.

Its like....Law and Order.

God not only legislates His Law and decrees as a ruling King, He also has the power to enforce His Law and decrees on man and even Judge (yet something else we must talk about) them that do not follow His laws.


Hodge Book 1
pages 407-408

A. The Nature of Power, or, The Origin of the Idea.
We get the idea of power from our own consciousness. That is, we are conscious of the ability of producing effects. Power in man is confined within very narrow limits. We can change the current of our thoughts, or fix our attention on a particular object and we can move the voluntary muscles of our body. Beyond this our direct power does not extend. It is from this small measure of efficiency that all the stores of human knowledge and all the wonders of human art are derived. It is only our thoughts, volitions, and purposes, together with certain acts of the body, that are immediately subject to the will. For all other effects we must avail ourselves of the use of means. We cannot will a book, a picture, or a house into existence. The production of such effects requires protracted labor and the use of diverse appliances.

B. Omnipotence.
It is by removing all the limitations of power, as it exists in us, that we rise to the idea of the omnipotence of God. We do not thus, however, lose the idea itself. Almighty power does not cease to be power. We can do very little. God can do whatever He wills. We, beyond very narrow limits, must use means to accomplish our ends. With God means are unnecessary. He wills, and it is done. He said, Let there be light; and there was light. He, by a volition created the heavens and the earth. At the volition of Christ, the winds ceased, and there was a great calm. By an act of the will He healed the sick, opened the eyes of the blind, and raised the dead. This simple idea of the omnipotence of God, that He can do without effort, and by a volition, whatever He wills, is the highest conceivable idea of power, and is that which is clearly presented in the Scriptures. In Gen. xvii. 1, it is said, “I am the Almighty God.” The prophet Jeremiah exclaims, “Ah Lord God! behold thou hast made the heavens and the earth by thy great power, and stretched out arm; and there is nothing too hard for thee.” (Jer. xxxii. 17.) God is said to have created all things by the breath of his mouth, and to uphold the universe by a word. Our Lord says, “With God all things are possible.” (Matt. xix. 26.) The Psalmist long before had said, “Our God is in the heavens; He hath done whatsoever He pleased.” (Ps. cxv. 3.) And again, “Whatsoever the Lord pleased, that did He in heaven, and in earth, in the seas, and all deep places.” (Ps. cxxxv. 6.) The Lord God omnipotent reigneth, and doeth his pleasure among the armies of heaven and the inhabitants of the earth, is the tribute of adoration which the Scriptures everywhere render unto God, and the truth which they everywhere present as the ground of confidence to his people. This is all we know, and all we need to know on this subject: and here we might rest satisfied, were it not for the vain attempts of theologians to reconcile these simple and sublime truths of the Bible with their philosophical speculations.

Hodge book 1
pages 441-442

This sovereignty is exercised, (1.) In establishing the laws, physical and moral, by which all creatures are to be governed. (2.) In determining the nature and powers of the different orders of created beings, and in assigning each its appropriate sphere. (3.) In appointing to each individual his position and lot. It is the Lord who fixes the bounds of our habitation. Our times are in his hands. He determines when, where, and under what circumstances each individual of our race is to be born, live, and die. Nations, no less than individuals, are thus in the hands of God, who assigns them their heritage in the earth, and controls their destiny. (4.) God is no less sovereign in the distribution of his favours. He does what He wills with his own. He gives to some riches, to others, honour; to others, health; while others are poor, unknown, or the victims of disease. To some, the light of the gospel is sent; others are left in darkness. Some are brought through faith unto salvation; others perish in unbelief. To the question, Why is this? the only answer is that given by our Lord. “Even so, Father, for so it seemeth good in thy sight.”

One other thing that should be noted about "power".

Most recognize two types of power found in God. One is the cause or better the 1st cause and the 2nd is the nature order God has setup in nature as law. Or natural and supernatural events. The nature power are laws like gravity set by God once and for all. The power of God in this light is seen as God creating and sustaining the world, and does it as a whole. Supernatural power is seen in supernatural events.
 

TCGreek

New Member
reformedbeliever said:
Yes, I think so TC. Because God is sovereign, He has to be completely full of all His attributes. If He had to look anywhere other than Himself to fulfill any of His attributes, would He be sovereign?

Can we ever speak of an attribute of God which precedes all the other attributes?
 

Jarthur001

Active Member
I want to "kick it up a notch" :)

Pink adds yet another element...supremacy :)



5. THE SUPREMACY OF GOD

In one of his letters to Erasmus, Luther said, "Your thoughts of God are too human." Probably that renowned scholar resented such a rebuke, the more so, since it proceeded from a miner’s son; nevertheless, it was thoroughly deserved. We too, though having no standing among the religious leaders of this degenerate age, prefer the same charge against the majority of the preachers of our day, and against those who, instead of searching the Scriptures for themselves, lazily accept the teaching of others. The most dishonoring and degrading conceptions of the rule and reign of the Almighty are now held almost everywhere. To countless thousands, even among those professing to be Christians, the God of the Scriptures is quite unknown.
Of old, God complained to an apostate Israel, Thou thoughtest that I was altogether as thyself. (Ps. 50:21). Such must now be His indictment against an apostate Christendom. Men imagine that the Most High is moved by sentiment, rather than actuated by principle. They suppose that His omnipotency is such an idle fiction that Satan is thwarting His designs on every side. They think that if He has formed any plan or purpose at all, then it must be like theirs, constantly subject to change. They openly declare that whatever power He possesses must be restricted, lest He invade the citadel of man’s "free will" and reduce him to a "machine." They lower the all efficacious Atonement, which has actually redeemed everyone for whom it was made, to a mere "remedy," which sin-sick souls may use if they feel disposed to; and they enervate the invincible work of the Holy Spirit to an "offer" of the Gospel which sinners may accept or reject as they please.
The "god" of this twentieth century no more resembles the Supreme Sovereign of Holy Writ than does the dim flickering of a candle the glory of the midday sun. The "god" who is now talked about in the average pulpit, spoken of in the ordinary Sunday School, mentioned in much of the religious literature of the day, and preached in most of the so-called Bible Conferences is the figment of human imagination, an invention of maudlin sentimentality. The heathen outside of the pale of Christendom form "gods" out of wood and stone, while the millions of heathen inside Christendom manufacture a "god" out of their own carnal mind. In reality, they are but atheists, for there is no other possible alternative between an absolutely supreme God, and no God at all. A "god" whose will is resisted, whose designs are frustrated, whose purpose is checkmated, possesses no title to Deity, and so far from being a fit object of worship, merits nought but contempt.
The supremacy of the true and living God might well be argued from the infinite distance which separates the mightiest creatures from the almighty Creator. He is the Potter, they are but the clay in His hands to be molded into vessels of honor, or to be dashed into pieces (Ps. 2-9) as He pleases. Were all the denizens of heaven and all the inhabitants of the earth to combine in revolt against Him, it would occasion Him no uneasiness, and would have less effect upon His eternal and unassailable Throne than has the spray of Mediterranean’s waves upon the towering rocks of Gibraltar. So puerile and powerless is the creature to affect the Most High, Scripture itself tells us that when the Gentile heads unite with apostate Israel to defy Jehovah and His Christ, "He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh" (Ps. 2:4).
The absolute and universal supremacy of God is plainly and positively affirmed in many scriptures. "Thine, O Lord, is the greatness, and the power, and the glory, and the victory and the majesty: for all in the heaven and all in the earth is Thine; Thine is the Kingdom, O Lord, and Thou art exalted as Head above all. . . .And Thou reignest over all" (1 Chron. 29:11, 12)—note reignest now, not "will do so in the Millennium." "O Lord God of our fathers, art not Thou, God in heaven? and rulest not Thou over all the kingdoms of the heathen? and in Thine hand is there not power and might, so that none (not even the Devil himself) is able to withstand Thee?" (2 Chron. 20:6). Before Him presidents and popes, kings and emperors, are less than grasshoppers.
"But He is in one mind, and who can turn Him? and what His soul desireth, even that He doeth" (Job 23:13). Ah, my reader, the God of Scripture is no make-believe monarch, no mere imaginary sovereign, but King of kings, and Lord of lords. "I know that Thou canst do everything, and that no thought of Thine can be hindered" (Job 42:3, margin), or, as another translator, "no purpose of Thine can be frustrated." All that He has designed He does. All that He has decreed, He performs. "But our God is in the heavens: He hath done whatsoever He hath pleased" (Psa. 115.3); and why has He? Because "there is no wisdom, nor understanding, nor counsel against the Lord" (Prov 21:30).
God’s supremacy over the works of His hands is vividly depicted in Scripture. Inanimate matter, irrational creatures, all perform their Maker’s bidding. At His pleasure the Red Sea divided and its waters stood up as walls (Ex. 14); and the earth opened her mouth, and guilty rebels went down alive into the pit (Num. 14). When He so ordered, the sun stood still (Josh. 10); and on another occasion went backward ten degrees on the dial of Ahaz (Isa. 38:8). To exemplify His supremacy, He made ravens carry food to Elijah (1 Kings 17), iron to swim on top of the waters (2 Kings 6:5), lions to be tame when Daniel was cast into their den, fire to burn not when the three Hebrews were flung into its flames. Thus "Whatsoever the Lord pleased, that did He in heaven, and in earth, in the seas, and all deep places" (Psa. 135:6).
God’s supremacy is also demonstrated in His perfect rule over the wills of men. Let the reader ponder carefully Ex. 34:24. Three times in the year all the males of Israel were required to leave their homes and go up to Jerusalem. They lived in the midst of hostile people, who hated them for having appropriated their lands. What, then, was to hinder the Canaanites from seizing their opportunity, and, during the absence of the men, slaying the women and children and taking possession of their farms? If the hand of the Almighty was not upon the wills even of wicked men, how could He make this promise beforehand, that none should so much as "desire" their lands? Ah, "The king’s heart is in the hand of the Lord, as the rivers of water: He turneth it whithersoever He will" (Prov. 21:1).
But, it may be objected, do we not read again and again in Scripture how that men defied God, resisted His will, broke His commandments, disregarded His warnings, and turned a deaf ear to all His exhortations? Certainly we do. And does this nullify all that we have said above? If it does, then the Bible plainly contradicts itself. But that cannot be. What the objector refers to is simply the wickedness of man against the external word of God, whereas what we have mentioned above is what God has purposed in Himself. The rule of conduct He has given us to walk by, is perfectly fulfilled by none of us; His own eternal "counsels" are accomplished to their minutest details.
The absolute and universal supremacy of God is affirmed with equal plainness and positiveness in the New Testament. There we are told that God "worketh all things after the counsel of His own will" (Eph. 1:11)—the Greek for "worketh" means to work effectually. For this reason we read, "For of Him, and through Him, and to Him are all things: to whom be glory forever. Amen" (Rom. 11:36). Men may boast that they are free agents, with a will of their own, and are at liberty to do as they please, but Scripture says to those who boast "we will go into such a city, and continue there a year, and buy and sell...Ye ought to say, If the Lord will" (Jas. 4:13,15)!
Here then is a sure resting-place for the heart. Our lives are neither the product of blind fate nor the result of capricious chance, but every detail of them was ordained from all eternity. and is now ordered by the living and reigning God. Not a hair of our heads can be touched without His permission. "A man’s heart deviseth his way: but the Lord directeth his steps" (Prov. 16:9). What assurance, what strength, what comfort should this give the real Christian! "My times are in Thy hand" (Ps. 31:15). Then let me "Rest in the Lord, and wait patiently for Him" (Ps. 37:7).
 
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