Irresistible Grace, John 6:37

[OldRegular]

4 Questions:

1. Who, while on earth, was given to Christ by his Father to prepare to carry the Gospel of reconciliation to the world? (answer found in John 17)

2. What nation were they from?

3. What was happening to the rest of the people from that nation during this time? (Acts 28; Mark 4; Matt. 13; John 12:39; Rom 11)

4. When was the Gospel sent to the Gentiles?

You are going down for the 5th time Skandelon and clutching at straws will not help. I realize context is important but nothing is going to change what Jesus Christ tells us in John 6 and the remainder of Scripture.

 

[Winman]

Some of you folks understand the Greek. That is fine; I wish I did. I can use a lexicon to find how a Greek or Hebrew word is translated in the Bible but that is the extent of my linguistic ability as far as Greek is concerned. What I can do is compare various translations. But! I must then trust that the translators are both competent and honest! I use the KJV primarily but I also checked Acts 13:48 in a number of other translations [and one concise paraphrase].

KJV: And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.


ASV: And as the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of God: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.


GLT: And hearing, the nations rejoiced and glorified the Word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.


KJ21: And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the Word of the Lord; and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.


MKJV: And hearing, the nations rejoiced and glorified the Word of the Lord. And as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.


NASB95: When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.


NASB: And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.


NIV: When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honoured the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed.


NKJV: Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.


YLT: And the nations hearing were glad, and were glorifying the word of the Lord, and did believe--as many as were appointed to life age-during;


ESV: And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.


Berk: When they heard this, the Gentiles were glad; they eulogized the Lord’s message and believed - as many as were appointed for eternal life.


There are others I could check but those were sufficient for me! All these versions say ordained or appointed to eternal life. I also looked at Gill and Spurgeon to see if they understood this Scripture as I do.

You don't get it, not one of these translations says God caused a person to believe. What was ordained is that the gospel would go to the Gentiles and they would believe. The last translation from Berk makes this clear.

God from eternity had ordained that the gospel would go to the Gentiles. God had ordained that Gentiles would hear the gospel and believe. But that does not mean God directly caused them to believe. God caused them to believe in the sense that he sent preachers to preach the gospel to these Gentiles, and of course the word of God is powerful and convicts a man of his sin, and enlightens him to the knowledge that he can trust in Jesus and be saved.

But all men have to believe for themselves, God does not believe for you.

I personally believe God's foreknowledge is also implied here, God knew who would believe when they heard the gospel, and so God ordained the circumstances where these persons would be given the opportunity to hear the gospel. I believe this is what Paul was saying in Acts 17;

Acts 17:26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:

This verse seems to say that God knows who will believe the gospel when they hear it, and so has determined that they be in the right place at the right time.

I believe my own experience reflects this. My family moved many times when I was young. For just a short time we lived in Panama City, Fl., My family was not religious and almost never attended church, but it just so happened we lived next to some former missionaries to Afghanistan who had a son my age. His parents asked my Dad if I could go to church with them one Sunday. I did go, and this is when I heard the gospel and accepted Jesus as my Saviour. Very soon afterwards we moved away.

Now, I think God arranged all this. He put me in just the right place at the right time so I could hear the gospel because he knew I would believe. I had always believed in God before this, but I was not saved because I had been taught a person has to be good to go to heaven. But I knew of Jesus, and I loved Jesus, and so I think God brought about the circumstances where I would hear the gospel.

And that is what Acts 13:48 is saying (IMHO), that God knew who would believe among the Gentiles, and so had ordained they would hear the gospel through Paul. So, it makes perfect sense to say "and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed".

But God does not force anyone to believe, they must believe of their own free choice.

 

[percho]

But God does not force anyone to believe, they must believe of their own free choice.

Force anyone to believe; What?

They must believe; What?

When we say believe, what are we speaking of?

Thanks before hand.

 

[MB]

I do not like the term Irresistible Grace though I understand where and why the term originated. Some of Arminian persuasion use this term to imply that God must drag the elect "kicking and screaming" to Salvation, which is untrue. That being said Jesus Christ tells us in the Gospel according to John:

John 6:37. All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

All that God the Father elects unto Salvation and gives to the Incarnate Son, Jesus Christ, shall come to Jesus Christ for Salvation. Other Scripture tell us that no one can come to Jesus Christ of his own volition.

John 6:65. And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

John 6:44. No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
This last verse blows you out of the water doesn't it.
MB

 

[Skandelon]

You are going down for the 5th time Skandelon and clutching at straws will not help. I realize context is important but nothing is going to change what Jesus Christ tells us in John 6 and the remainder of Scripture.

Just answer the questions and they will show the context and thus the intent of John 6. You avoid it because it doesn't fit your dogma.

 

[Iconoclast]

You are going down for the 5th time Skandelon and clutching at straws will not help. I realize context is important but nothing is going to change what Jesus Christ tells us in John 6 and the remainder of Scripture.

Well said.....You have presented a clear scriptural case that is to be believed.
Some do not like the scripture, so they whine about personal attacks. When they twist the words, and cut the verses in half after they have been answered.....then whine and say they are not getting a response.....it is like a bad cycle they cannot escape from.
When verses are correctly offered they should welcome correction:wavey:

 

[Iconoclast]

Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
This last verse blows you out of the water doesn't it.
MB

Not at all. We understand what the verse actually teaches....and what it does not really teach.:thumbsup:

 

[Van]

There are 3 passages of Scripture presented. You should read all of them!

John 6:44. No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:65. And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

John 6:37. All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

John 6:44 say 100% of those given to Christ were drawn by the father. It does not say 100% of those drawn were given to Christ. Can you not read.

John 6:65 says no one can come to Jesus unless allowed by the Father, Judas was not allowed.

John 6:37 days 100% of those given to Me come to Me, and all those that are given to me and therefore come to Me, arrive in Me and I will not cast them out.

So Calvinism misrepresents all three verses.

 

[OldRegular]

You don't get it, not one of these translations says God caused a person to believe. What was ordained is that the gospel would go to the Gentiles and they would believe. The last translation from Berk makes this clear.

The translation from the Berkley version is the same as all the others.

And that is what Acts 13:48 is saying (IMHO), that God knew who would believe among the Gentiles, and so had ordained they would hear the gospel through Paul. So, it makes perfect sense to say "and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed".

God knew who would believe because He had chosen them to salvation in Jesus Christ before the foundation of the world.

But God does not force anyone to believe.

Have I ever written that God forced anyone to believe. Every time you write this Winman you are showing your ignorance of the Doctrines of Grace.

they must believe of their own free choice.

The unregenerate man has no free will. His will is in bondage to sin and Satan!

 

[convicted1]

Nonsense convicted1!

Whatever... Next time address the post, and not just sweep it under the rug......

 

[OldRegular]

4 Questions:

1. Who, while on earth, was given to Christ by his Father to prepare to carry the Gospel of reconciliation to the world? (answer found in John 17)

The Apostles. But God called another. Why?

2. What nation were they from?

Judah!

3. What was happening to the rest of the people from that nation during this time? (Acts 28; Mark 4; Matt. 13; John 12:39; Rom 11)

Well to tell the truth Jesus Christ had more followers from among the Jews than the Apostles. If you need Scripture I can produce them. Actually I am not sure the total number is recorded but they were the elect among the Jews.

4. When was the Gospel sent to the Gentiles?

I believe the first Gentile to hear the Gospel was the woman in Samaria. Some may argue that she was not fully Gentile. Then there was the Syrophenician woman!

Then of course there were Gentile believers in the Old Testament.

 

[convicted1]

Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
This last verse blows you out of the water doesn't it.
MB

Remember, its the likes of Calvin, Beza, Gill, Augustine, Bunyan, who have the only "true" interpretation of the bible. They read between the lines, and find words in "very small print", that aren't even there....:tear:

 

[OldRegular]

Remember, its the likes of Calvin, Beza, Gill, Augustine, Bunyan, who have the only "true" interpretation of the bible. They read between the lines, and find words in "very small print", that aren't even there....:tear:

What about the Elders of the Sovereign Grace Association of the Old Regular Baptist Church. Do they read small print that is not there.

 

[OldRegular]

Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
This last verse blows you out of the water doesn't it.
MB

Not at ALL! Are all men saved?

 

[OldRegular]

Just answer the questions and they will show the context and thus the intent of John 6. You avoid it because it doesn't fit your dogma.

You are implying that the answer to your questions would rule out the general application of the passages in the OP and to John 6 to Gentiles, in fact to all people. What then do we do with the revelation as recorded in the Old Testament?

 

[OldRegular]

John 6:44 say 100% of those given to Christ were drawn by the father. It does not say 100% of those drawn were given to Christ. Can you not read.

John 6:65 says no one can come to Jesus unless allowed by the Father, Judas was not allowed.

John 6:37 days 100% of those given to Me come to Me, and all those that are given to me and therefore come to Me, arrive in Me and I will not cast them out.

So Calvinism misrepresents all three verses.

I read fine Van even though I need spectacles. I also think!

 

[OldRegular]

Boy, if we ever get called out by you guys ever again about proof texting, why, I'll..........

Just relax a little Convicted1.

You need to expand this just a "tad" to get to what Jesus was really talking about, and to whom He was talking about.

John 6:37-40
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

And your point is? You are implying that the clause "seeth the Son" restricts the applicability of the Scripture. Well you are wrong. Do you throw away the Old Testament because it was written initially for Israel. If so you are ignoring Scripture. The Apostle Paul tells us in Romans:

Romans 15:4. For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.

You are not going to ignore the above because Paul wrote it to the Church at Rome are you?

Also recall what Jesus Christ told Thomas:

John 20:26-29
26. And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
27. Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
28. And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
29. Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

Furthermore I direct your attention to the following:

John 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

 

[Skandelon]

The Apostles. ...
Judah!
...
Well to tell the truth Jesus Christ had more followers from among the Jews than the Apostles. If you need Scripture I can produce them. Actually I am not sure the total number is recorded but they were the elect among the Jews.

But the apostles (and those close to them) were the only ones he entrusted himself to, right? (John 2:24).

The only ones who stuck around at the end of John 6 were his apostles, as (generally speaking) the rest of Israel was being hardened. (John 12:39) That is the reason they 'couldn't come to him.' It had nothing to do with God not loving them or wanting them to come. Scripture clearly teaches the opposite is true. (Rom. 10:21, Matt. 23:37).

I believe the first Gentile to hear the Gospel was the woman in Samaria. Some may argue that she was not fully Gentile. Then there was the Syrophenician woman!

Then of course there were Gentile believers in the Old Testament.

But the gospel (the power of God unto Salvation) was sent to the Gentiles when what significant events happened?

Peter's Dream and Paul's Calling on the Damascus Road. Paul was even referred to as "the apostles to the Gentiles." He was reserved or even rescued from the hardening of Israel so that He could fulfill the "noble purpose" of fulfilling God' reason for electing Israel to begin with, which was to take the message of redemption to the rest of the world.

 

[OldRegular]

But the apostles (and those close to them) were the only ones he entrusted himself to, right? (John 2:24).

Not really. Remember the Samaritan woman. This is the first time that Jesus Christ identified Himself, and to a Gentile!

The only ones who stuck around at the end of John 6 were his apostles, as (generally speaking) the rest of Israel was being hardened. (John 12:39) That is the reason they 'couldn't come to him.' It had nothing to do with God not loving them or wanting them to come. Scripture clearly teaches the opposite is true. (Rom. 10:21, Matt. 23:37).

The 12 are specifically mentioned in John 6. However, according to Robertson's Harmony the 70 were later sent out [Luke 10]. Then of course the Apostle Paul mentions the 500 that were witnesses to the resurrection [1 Corinthians 15:6]. So not all were hardened.

But the gospel (the power of God unto Salvation) was sent to the Gentiles when what significant events happened?

Peter's Dream and Paul's Calling on the Damascus Road. Paul was even referred to as "the apostles to the Gentiles." He was reserved or even rescued from the hardening of Israel so that He could fulfill the "noble purpose" of fulfilling God' reason for electing Israel to begin with, which was to take the message of redemption to the rest of the world.

You, like convicted1, are wanting to restrict the teaching of Jesus Christ in John 6 only to the Jews during the ministry of Jesus Christ. That is actually worse than some Dispensationalists who insist the Sermon on the Mount is only for the millennial kingdom. Not good at all. I simply refer you to the following Scripture:

John 1:11-13
11. He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13. Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

There are no restrictions on the many of verse 12, other than they were of the elect. Then of course there is the wonderful teaching of verse 13.

Gentiles, Jews, whoever, makes no difference as Ephesians 2 tells us so clearly.

 

[convicted1]

What about the Elders of the Sovereign Grace Association of the Old Regular Baptist Church. Do they read small print that is not there.

Have you ever been around them? I went to their annual association meeting back in '07 or '08(can't remember which), and they are wonderful, God fearing people. I also heard the Gospel preached there, too. Elder Bob Fields, from the Thornton Union preached a wonderful sermon, and Elder Mike Slone, SGA Moderator, sang my favorite song, "The Third Man"!! I had very good fellowship with them.

Some from the Northwest Assoc of PB's where there, and they invited me to visit them. They even invited me to preach, if I made it there. One said they would put me in the stand to find out what I preached. I guess they thought I was in-line with SGA's theology....They would have sung me down...:laugh: I may disagree with their beliefs, and they mine, but they sure showed me love.