Irresistible Grace

[ivdavid]

They(Israel) refused it, even after he had provided the means for the born again entrance into it where sins were washed away and God instead established his kingdom in this age in a mystery form and is ruling over his subjects in an invisible person, the Holy Ghost, while the King is absent.

This God's establishing His kingdom in this age in a mystery form - did God decree to do so only after Israel refused Christ or did God decree it before the ages?
(I know you're prone to writing lengthy responses and i'm absolutely fine with that as long as you begin with a direct answer and separate your posts with key headings? Just by way of request and not obligation.)

Now, election for both Jews and gentiles in this age is not before the foundation of the world like the Reformed claims, but is "since" the foundation of the world.

Where are you getting this from? If anything, I look at say Col 1:26 and I'm seeing that the mystery is hidden from the ages - being hidden from then does not imply it wasn't decreed before the ages, right?

The reason it is a mystery form is because this kingdom form is not a subject of the OT prophets..

Sure, it was not manifested/explained then but there were still prophecies in the OT about this mystery that are now explained by the Spirit, right? How do you see Gen 12:3 as, if not the prophetic Gospel of Christ to the Gentiles too?

 

[Dave G]

What about Acts 7:51?

"“You stiff-necked people, uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always resist the Holy Spirit. As your fathers did, so do you"

The context is about salvation

Is not the context about hearing God's words?

" Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers [did], so [do] ye.
52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:
53 who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept [it]." ( Acts 7:51-53 ).

Here's what I see when I read it:

51) Stephen is telling the Jews that they are stiffnecked ( stubborn ) in heart and in ears.
They always resist the Holy Ghost as their fathers did.
So there's the problem:

Their hearts which are hard towards God and their ears which they have closed ( see Matthew 13:10-17, Acts of the Apostles 28:25-27 ) are the "heart" of the problem with receiving God's words.
That's all of us according to Romans 1:18-32, Romans 3:10-18 and many other places..
And includes the Jews especially in John 8:43-47.
God alone is the one who circumcises ears and hearts ( Deuteronomy 30:6, Romans 2:29, Galatians 6:15, Philippians 3:3 )...
We do not circumcise our own hearts.

It takes the miracle of the new birth for that to happen.


52) He asks them, " Which of the prophets have your fathers not persecuted?"
Prophets "prophesy", or preach the word of God.
These prophets, some of whom were slain by the Jews, told of a coming Messiah... which the Jews betrayed and murdered by crucifying Him.


53) These Jews also received the Law by the disposition ( the determination of events by divine power ) of angels.



Therefore, the context is about those who hear God's words, and those who do not.
We know from Romans 10:17 that faith comes by hearing...
But it comes by the word of God and it comes to those who have ears to hear ( Matthew 11:15 ).

Those who do not receive or welcome the word of God are resisting the Holy Spirit, in their hearts.

That is what the natural man does ( 1 Corinthians 2:14 )...
Prior to the new birth, we reject the things of the Spirit;

The most important of which is God's every word.

 

[Dave G]

There is no basis in reality or reason or logic for such a doctrine as irresistible grace.

But there is a basis for it when one reads and believes the word of God, JD.

Reason or logic have nothing to do with believing God's word.
In fact, He tells His children not to trust in their own understanding, but to trust Him alone ( Proverbs 3:5-6 )

There certainly is no scriptures that teaches it.

Example:
God makes the rain to fall on the just and the unjust...
There we have "irresistible" grace, do we not?

In other words, God giving something good to someone, and that person not having any control over whether or not it comes to them.

Can we stop the rain from falling, or the sun from shining?
Can we as mere men stop the Lord from bringing His goodness to those that He desires to give it to?

No, we can't.
We may as well try to tell the wind that it cannot blow, or the sun that it cannot rise in the morning.

 

[ivdavid]

Someone who is under the law is not under mercy. C'mon now. I am asking you to think. Law can't have mercy on anyone. It can only condemn. God used it in Israel to prove they needed mercy because the law condemned them all.

The law justly condemns all without mercy - very true. But are you saying there was no grace through faith in the OT? David clearly is a testimony of faith and was approved by God, pleasing to Him. And given the law is not of faith, how could David be under the law instead of being seen as simply upholding it through faith?
Also, what then are the sure mercies of David if he was under the law with no mercy?

 

[Dave G]

Election is to service .

Election ( choosing ) is to salvation, Barry.

See 2 Thessalonians 2:13.
God chooses people to salvation...
It's clearly stated.

To me, the problem isn't what you call, "Calvinism"...
It's believing what the words actually say.

So, I urge you to believe the words, Barry,
Because they are God's words, not John Calvin's words.

Predestination is once people are saved they are predestined to future guaranteed Adoption, which is defined not as at conversion ( thats the Spirit OF adoption ) But glorification.

Predestination, in the strictest sense, is to being adopted as the children of God ( Ephesians 1:5 ) and to being conformed to the image of Christ ( Romans 8:29 ).
But predestination is for a people that God has foreknown...not a people that were not foreknown.
God's decision to place individuals in Christ was made before the world began, when His children that were foreknown were chosen in Christ ( Ephesians 1:4 ).

Salvation took place then, from God's viewpoint.

The realization of His gift of grace takes place at moment of belief...
The salvation ( or deliverance from all our troubles ) takes places periodically throughout the life of the believer.
Finally, salvation takes place ( for the recipients of that gift ), at the Judgment,
when they are separated and placed at Christ's right hand because they have an inheritance prepared for them from the foundation of the world ( Matthew 25:31-45 ).

At no point was there ever any danger of His elect being cast into Hell...
That is how much the Lord loves those to whom He has bestowed His gift of eternal life.
Even when they were dead in sins ( Ephesians 2:1-6 ).

So much that He is not willing that any of the us-ward perish, but that they all come to repentance ( 2 Peter 3:8-9 ).

 

[MB]

You are confusing Law (not saved) with grace (saved).

No where in scripture does it ever say Grace is irresistible. Grace is favor and I thank God for it, still it is not resistible.
MB

 

[1689Dave]

No where in scripture does it ever say Grace is irresistible. Grace is favor and I thank God for it, still it is not resistible.
MB

If it is resistible, it isn't grace. Grace saves those who resist.

 

[Dave G]

Grace is favor and I thank God for it, still it is not resistible.

Amen, MB.

Grace is not resistible, nor will it ever be...
For who can stop the Lord's hand?

" For the LORD of hosts hath purposed, and who shall disannul [it]? and his hand [is] stretched out, and who shall turn it back?" ( Isaiah 14:27 ).

" [There are] many devices in a man's heart; nevertheless the counsel of the LORD, that shall stand." ( Proverbs 19:21 ).

" And all the inhabitants of the earth [are] reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and [among] the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?" ( Daniel 4:35 ).



He brings the snow in winter, the rain in spring, the cool in the summer and good things to all.
Yet we, as a race, resist God...
Not knowing that His goodness actually leads us to repentance:

" And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? " ( Romans 2:3-4 ).

Romans 1, Romans 2 and Romans 3, MB.
They are full of information about who we are without God's grace, as are the Psalms.



May God bless you richly in your studies,

And may you always remember that He delivers His people from their troubles...
Especially when they call upon Him.

 

[JD731]

This God's establishing His kingdom in this age in a mystery form - did God decree to do so only after Israel refused Christ or did God decree it before the ages?
(I know you're prone to writing lengthy responses and i'm absolutely fine with that as long as you begin with a direct answer and separate your posts with key headings? Just by way of request and not obligation)

I don't think "decree" is a good word here. God's omniscience does not over ride the fact that he has given man intelligence, reason, and will and he has the ability to adjust to disobedience and still accomplish his will. Remember, it repented him that he had created man because of his wickedness before the flood?

With this exception, YES! Before the ages.

Where are you getting this from? If anything, I look at say Col 1:26 and I'm seeing that the mystery is hidden from the ages - being hidden from then does not imply it wasn't decreed before the ages, right?

Col 1:26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
This only means it was not a subject of OT prophecies.

Check the green and then the blue. Words mean things. It was hidden. God had purpose in hiding these things because his promises to Israel in the OT were legitimate and though they would have come to pass when Jesus came, the fact they didn't does not mean they never will. Including the gentiles at this time was a contingency of God. He is allowed to do as he righteously will. You could read Rom 11, beginning at verse 13 to see this in print.

Sure, it was not manifested/explained then but there were still prophecies in the OT about this mystery that are now explained by the Spirit, right?

I think you need to start thinking that God created Adam with the intention that he rule over a kingdom of his offspring on the earth forever. This did not work out for reasons we can discuss later. God can fix it and is doing it.

Ps 115:16 The heaven, even the heavens, are the Lord's: but the earth hath he given to the children of men.

How do you see Gen 12:3 as, if not the prophetic Gospel of Christ to the Gentiles too?

Gen 12 is one of the most pivotal chapters in all of scriptures. In some ways it is the most important chapter in OT history. I am not going to discuss the reasons here but you can be assured that the gospel is good news, glad tidings from God to Abraham. There is nothing here about what we know and believe as the gospel of Jesus Christ dying, being buried, and being raised from the dead as per 1 Co 15:1-4.

 

[37818]

No one was saved at the cross . That would deny the resurection .

So Jesus' words to the theif, "Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise," means what, prior to Christ's deaths, burial and resurrection?

 

[37818]

Grace is not resistible, nor will it ever be...
For who can stop the Lord's hand?

Acts of the Apostles 7:51, ". . .Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye." Hebrews 10:29, ". . . Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?"

 

[37818]

There were different levels of resistance. Holy Spirit = God. In the OT they resisted God and brought great judgement and exile, time and again. It had nothing to do with salvation. In the NT their resistance brought the siege of Jerusalem and their physical removal as a nation and worse.

See my post #91.

 

[Dave G]

Acts of the Apostles 7:51, ". . .Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye." Hebrews 10:29, ". . . Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?"

" For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28 He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance [belongeth] unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 [It is] a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
32 But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions;
33 partly, whilst ye were made a gazingstock both by reproaches and afflictions; and partly, whilst ye became companions of them that were so used.
34 For ye had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance.
35 Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward.
36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.
37 For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.
38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if [any man] draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul." ( Hebrews 10:26-39 ).


There are "wheat" and there are "tares" ( Matthew 13:36-43 ).

One is sanctified, and the other "sanctified".
One stumbles into sin because of their wicked flesh and inwardly fights against sin ( Romans 7:15-23 ), the other sins willfully and consistently and doesn't.
One counts the blood of the covenant a holy thing, and the other does not.
One, deep down, despises God's Law.
One sees it for what it really is...
A holy thing that acts as a schoolmaster to lead them to Christ, because they cannot keep it in and of themselves.

One group lives by faith, the other group's faith fails them ( Matthew 13:18-23 ).

Those who are Christ's sheep and have believed from the heart are not of them who draw back, but they are "of" them that believe to the saving of the soul.
That is what I see when I take into account all that the Scriptures have to say about who God's children are and who they are not.

A genuine, born again believer who is sanctified by the blood cannot and will not ever regard God's covenant and Christ's blood an unholy thing.


May God bless you sir.

 

[37818]

" For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28 He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance [belongeth] unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 [It is] a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
32 But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions;
33 partly, whilst ye were made a gazingstock both by reproaches and afflictions; and partly, whilst ye became companions of them that were so used.
34 For ye had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance. 35 Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward.
36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.
37 For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.
38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if [any man] draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul." ( Hebrews 10:10:26-39 ).


There are "wheat" and there are "tares" ( Matthew 13:36-43 ).

One is sanctified, and the other "sanctified".
One counts the blood of the covenant a holy thing, and the other does not.
One deep down, despises God's Law.
One sees it for what it really is...
A holy thing that acts as a schoolmaster to lead them to Christ, because they cannot keep it in and of themselves.

One group lives by faith, the other group's faith fails them ( Matthew 13:18-23 ).

Those who are Christ's sheep and have believed from the heart are not of them who draw back, but they are "of" them that believe to the saving of the soul.
That is what I see when I take into account all that the Scriptures have to say about who God's children are and who they are not.


May God bless you sir.

It is my understanding that the Holy Spirit's work of sanctification precedes one's repentance and the faith, Hebrews 10:29; 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14.

 

[Dave G]

It is my understanding that the Holy Spirit's work of sanctification precedes one's repentance and the faith, Hebrews 10:29; 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14.

I agree.

I see that God's gift of the new birth is commonly know as the sanctification of one's spirit ( or the sanctification of the Spirit, either way )
2 Thessalonians 2:13.
I also see that the Lord has to first open someone's heart before they will listen intently to His words:
Acts of the Apostles 16:14.

It's "irresistible",
Just as the Lord bestowing the gift of His grace on Mary, who was not asked for her permission to be the Lord's earthly mother;
Neither was Zacharias asked what he preferred his son's name to be ( John, see Luke 1 );

Nor was Paul asked to be saved, confronted on the road to Damascus and commanded by the Lord...
and then made an apostle of God by the Lord's will ( Ephesians 1:1 ).

 

[ivdavid]

Including the gentiles at this time was a contingency of God.

It was easy to follow your responses, thank you. I'm only trying to more precisely understand the nuances of your position here.

This contingency of God where He decides to include the Gentiles -
1. would you say this contingency was decided in His omniscience before the ages?
2. would you agree that this decision to include the gentiles was prophesied in the OT, specifically Gen 12, though not expounded in depth as to the specifics of means(cross, resurrection etc.)?

 

[1689Dave]

Acts of the Apostles 7:51, ". . .Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye." Hebrews 10:29, ". . . Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?"

These were not born again. Of course, they resist the law. But Grace saves the hardest hearts from among them. Grace saves or it is not grace.

 

[JD731]

It was easy to follow your responses, thank you. I'm only trying to more precisely understand the nuances of your position here.

This contingency of God where He decides to include the Gentiles -
1. would you say this contingency was decided in His omniscience before the ages?

Yes. Eph 1 mentions his eternal counsel and his electing Christ before the creation of the world and electing all who are "in Christ" in time. but you might remember Matt 9-12 where his purpose with Israel was thwarted in the context of preaching the gospel of the kingdom of heaven to them when they committed the unpardonable sin. He said those of that generation would not be saved in that age or the age to come. He began at that time to preach to the people the future mystery form of the kingdom. Israel could still have entered this kingdom individually after the ascension but after 7 years they said no. It was only after this that he saved the man to whom he would send to the gentiles to fill up his house. For you to believe that God is omniscient but cannot act outside his prophetic utterances is wrong. God can and will perform every promise he has made to his people Israel in the future but he is not doing that now. He also can save people and give them eternal life and not include them in the body of Christ, but he is not doing that now.

2. would you agree that this decision to include the gentiles was prophesied in the OT, specifically Gen 12, though not expounded in depth as to the specifics of means(cross, resurrection etc.)?

The church of Jesus Christ is not the object of the prophecy of the OT. The kingdom of God is. It is only in the NT that we learn that the kingdom of God is structured after the pattern of the types of that kingdom that was given in the OT. The tabernacle, for instance, with it's three parts representing the indwelling God, the soul and the body.

So, to answer your question, no. It was the perfect will of God to save his people Israel as one man, a collective, as a temple, and to save the nations through them and then to rule in perfect harmony and accord though the ages he has planned in eternity.

The OT is physical, the NT is spiritual. Natural first, then spiritual. This is the rule.

I do not have perfect understanding and reserve the right to modify my position as I get more light from God.

 

[Barry Johnson]

Election ( choosing ) is to salvation, Barry.

See 2 Thessalonians 2:13.
God chooses people to salvation...
It's clearly stated.

To me, the problem isn't what you call, "Calvinism"...
It's believing what the words actually say.

So, I urge you to believe the words, Barry,
Because they are God's words, not John Calvin's words.

Predestination, in the strictest sense, is to being adopted as the children of God ( Ephesians 1:5 ) and to being conformed to the image of Christ ( Romans 8:29 ).
But predestination is for a people that God has foreknown...not a people that were not foreknown.
God's decision to place individuals in Christ was made before the world began, when His children that were foreknown were chosen in Christ ( Ephesians 1:4 ).

Salvation took place then, from God's viewpoint.

The realization of His gift of grace takes place at moment of belief...
The salvation ( or deliverance from all our troubles ) takes places periodically throughout the life of the believer.
Finally, salvation takes place ( for the recipients of that gift ), at the Judgment,
when they are separated and placed at Christ's right hand because they have an inheritance prepared for them from the foundation of the world ( Matthew 25:31-45 ).

At no point was there ever any danger of His elect being cast into Hell...
That is how much the Lord loves those to whom He has bestowed His gift of eternal life.
Even when they were dead in sins ( Ephesians 2:1-6 ).

So much that He is not willing that any of the us-ward perish, but that they all come to repentance ( 2 Peter 3:8-9 ).

I would encourage you to read the context. I notice all Calvinst s never offer any context other than " see this one verse ,this is Gods declaration of His absolute, sovereign, kingly , divine , determined, eternal decree ..this is what it teaches, see look it says ' chosen, elected , ordained , ; I don't need to learn anything about why the author is writing , who he's writing to , what's the central theme is or anything, I just need those words, thank you very much ,and good day. "

 

[Barry Johnson]

Election ( choosing ) is to salvation, Barry.

See 2 Thessalonians 2:13.
God chooses people to salvation...
It's clearly stated.

To me, the problem isn't what you call, "Calvinism"...
It's believing what the words actually say.

So, I urge you to believe the words, Barry,
Because they are God's words, not John Calvin's words.

Predestination, in the strictest sense, is to being adopted as the children of God ( Ephesians 1:5 ) and to being conformed to the image of Christ ( Romans 8:29 ).
But predestination is for a people that God has foreknown...not a people that were not foreknown.
God's decision to place individuals in Christ was made before the world began, when His children that were foreknown were chosen in Christ ( Ephesians 1:4 ).

Salvation took place then, from God's viewpoint.

The realization of His gift of grace takes place at moment of belief...
The salvation ( or deliverance from all our troubles ) takes places periodically throughout the life of the believer.
Finally, salvation takes place ( for the recipients of that gift ), at the Judgment,
when they are separated and placed at Christ's right hand because they have an inheritance prepared for them from the foundation of the world ( Matthew 25:31-45 ).

At no point was there ever any danger of His elect being cast into Hell...
That is how much the Lord loves those to whom He has bestowed His gift of eternal life.
Even when they were dead in sins ( Ephesians 2:1-6 ).

So much that He is not willing that any of the us-ward perish, but that they all come to repentance ( 2 Peter 3:8-9 ).

/////_See 2 Thessalonians 2:13.
' ...
It's clearly stated./////
i noticed you just said God chooses people to salvation" . Which is terrible . What does it actually say ? 13¶But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
Notice you missed out the crucial part ,THROUGH ( the means )
so has God ( from the beginning) chosen them to miss the return of Jesus? To go through the Tribulation ,suffer the anti christ, as the false letter had caused them to fear ? Or had they been told all along that God had not chosen them to wrath , ( 9For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, 1 thes 5 ) but rather through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
This is the context.
look at the verses before .
1¶Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5¶Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.