Irresistible Grace

[Sai]

" Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians [which is] in God the Father and [in] the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace [be] unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
2 We give thanks to God always for you all, making mention of you in our prayers;
3 remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;
4 knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God." ( 1 Thessalonians 1:1-4 ).

Romans 8:33.

Titus 1:1 ( Titus was a "Greek" ( Gentile ), please see Galatians 2:3 for proof, as well as Paul addressing him according to the faith of God's elect in Titus 1:1 ).

Colossians 3:12.

May God bless your studies, sir.

Dave please

 

[tyndale1946]

Dave please

I'm reading a book now called Knowing God by J.I. Packer... You are probably scratching your head saying well ok, but what does that have to do with this discussion... Well I ran into this acronym he uses for G-R-A-C-E... Gods Riches At Christs Expense... Can this type of Grace be resisted?... NO!

Now I have been on this board coming August 30th, 19 years, and brethren I have heard every argument under the sun, and I didn't believe it when I got here and I sure don't believe it now... First of all the Grace you have is not according to what you did but is according to what Jesus Christ did for you... Some brethren on here think that they joined Gods family... NO!... God made you a part of it... Its called Election, before you ever saw the light of day.

Some have been telling me, well I had a change of heart... NO!... God changed your heart... Some say well, it was my will that brought me... NO again... God changed your will and made it his, so you could come... See the Grace you have had nothing to do with you and ALL to do with Jesus Christ... YOU and I, didn't deserve what we have been given!... We didn't take grace, God gave it by the sacrifice of his only begotten Son, by his mercy and his alone... God the Father gave us to Jesus Christ the Son to save but we have left one person out and if not for him we would not know about Irresistible Grace... God the Holy Spirit, who enlightens us with truths about the operations of the three and one Godhead... Gods Riches At Christs Expense... 100%... To those who think they can lose THIS GRACE... I have only one thing to say to you... ... Hallelujah!!!... What A Savior!!!... Brother Glen

 

[Sai]

I'm reading a book now called Knowing God by J.I. Packer... You are probably scratching your head saying well ok, but what does that have to do with this discussion... Well I ran into this acronym he uses for G-R-A-C-E... Gods Riches At Christs Expense... Can this type of Grace be resisted?... NO!

Now I have been on this board coming August 30th, 19 years, and brethren I have heard every argument under the sun, and I didn't believe it when I got here and I sure don't believe it now... First of all the Grace you have is not according to what you did but is according to what Jesus Christ did for you... Some brethren on here think that they joined Gods family... NO!... God made you a part of it... Its called Election, before you ever saw the light of day.

Some have been telling me, well I had a change of heart... NO!... God changed your heart... Some say well, it was my will that brought me... NO again... God changed your will and made it his, so you could come... See the Grace you have had nothing to do with you and ALL to do with Jesus Christ... YOU and I, didn't deserve what we have been given!... We didn't take grace, God gave it by the sacrifice of his only begotten Son, by his mercy and his alone... God the Father gave us to Jesus Christ the Son to save but we have left one person out and if not for him we would not know about Irresistible Grace... God the Holy Spirit, who enlightens us with truths about the operations of the three and one Godhead... Gods Riches At Christs Expense... 100%... To those who think they can lose THIS GRACE... I have only one thing to say to you... ... Hallelujah!!!... What A Savior!!!... Brother Glen

If I go to a park and see 10 poor people and I choose to give $10 to five of them am I being unfair by not giving anything to the other 5?

I do not have a problem with being the elect. But to say that I had no choice is not biblical. I did. I chose. I was elect of God unto salvation meaning I was lost until I believed.

 

[1689Dave]

My understanding (to generate light not heat)

D. Irresistible Grace
(1) Efficacious Grace or Calling meaning irresistible for the elect of course the non elect do resist this grace.

*Distinguished from the General Calling out to all people to respond to the gospel (A declaration of the plan of salvation, where the Holy Spirit does its work to convict the world for sin).

Biblically defined total depravity means men left to themselves because dead in sins will not respond to God, on his own he will never seek God. Therefore God initiated by unconditional election, from the foundation of the world (even before), from the mass of humanity under condemnation because of their depravity he chose to save some and then thru the Messiah he provided salvation for all. But now he must do something to get the elect to respond. So what irresistible grace results in is a divine enabling to respond to the gospel. And so by special divine enabling of the elect they are able to exercise the faith they need to receive the free gift of salvation.

*The difference between the strict-Calvinist and the hyper-Calvinist is they would say we’re not dealing with divine enabling but God must regenerate the person first and then give him the gift of faith. Never in scripture is saving faith the gift, the verse they use is Ep 2:8-9 but they must violate the rules of Greek grammar which is grammatically an impossible interpretation It is the salvation that is the gift. So if we keep it in a moderate biblical format irresistible grace by this means God gives a divine enabling in order for the elect to respond. Without this divine enabling their sin would keep them from responding or even having a desire to respond. Jn 1:13 the will of man does not initiate this, but will of God. Jn 6:37 (no room for any maybes) Acts 13:48.
All three
Acts 16:14 (General Call who heard) (Efficacious Call God opened her heart ) (The Belief she gave heed)

Rom 8:28-30 those that were preordained they will receive this divine call they will respond to.

Rom 9:16 it’s by the mercy of God they are given this divine enabling to respond it wouldn’t come from their own fallen will.

*CALLED
Cor 1:9, 23-24, Gal 1:15, Phil 2:13 Thess 2:14, 5:24, 2 Tim 1:9, Heb 3:1, Pet 2:9, so God’s response to the problem of total depravity is not as the strict/hyper Calvinist where God forces salvation on the elect. Rather he gives divine enabling to the elect so that they are able to exercise the will and the grace of God is such they will always respond correctly.

There's no such thing as resisting grace. God accomplishes all he planned to bring about.

 

[Barry Johnson]

My understanding (to generate light not heat)

D. Irresistible Grace
(1) Efficacious Grace or Calling meaning irresistible for the elect of course the non elect do resist this grace.

*Distinguished from the General Calling out to all people to respond to the gospel (A declaration of the plan of salvation, where the Holy Spirit does its work to convict the world for sin).

Biblically defined total depravity means men left to themselves because dead in sins will not respond to God, on his own he will never seek God. Therefore God initiated by unconditional election, from the foundation of the world (even before), from the mass of humanity under condemnation because of their depravity he chose to save some and then thru the Messiah he provided salvation for all. But now he must do something to get the elect to respond. So what irresistible grace results in is a divine enabling to respond to the gospel. And so by special divine enabling of the elect they are able to exercise the faith they need to receive the free gift of salvation.

*The difference between the strict-Calvinist and the hyper-Calvinist is they would say we’re not dealing with divine enabling but God must regenerate the person first and then give him the gift of faith. Never in scripture is saving faith the gift, the verse they use is Ep 2:8-9 but they must violate the rules of Greek grammar which is grammatically an impossible interpretation It is the salvation that is the gift. So if we keep it in a moderate biblical format irresistible grace by this means God gives a divine enabling in order for the elect to respond. Without this divine enabling their sin would keep them from responding or even having a desire to respond. Jn 1:13 the will of man does not initiate this, but will of God. Jn 6:37 (no room for any maybes) Acts 13:48.
All three
Acts 16:14 (General Call who heard) (Efficacious Call God opened her heart ) (The Belief she gave heed)

Rom 8:28-30 those that were preordained they will receive this divine call they will respond to.

Rom 9:16 it’s by the mercy of God they are given this divine enabling to respond it wouldn’t come from their own fallen will.

*CALLED
Cor 1:9, 23-24, Gal 1:15, Phil 2:13 Thess 2:14, 5:24, 2 Tim 1:9, Heb 3:1, Pet 2:9, so God’s response to the problem of total depravity is not as the strict/hyper Calvinist where God forces salvation on the elect. Rather he gives divine enabling to the elect so that they are able to exercise the will and the grace of God is such they will always respond correctly.

Grace is a ubiquitous reality, not a selective force. (Tit. 2:11-13)

22. Grace is just fine on it’s own as it’s found in scripture. Any modifier other than “free,” such as “sovereign,” “irresistible,” or “prevenient” indicate someone is either confused or attempting to confuse. (Rom. 3:24; 5:15; Jn. 1:16; Tit. 2:11-13)

 

[Dave G]

Dave please

Sai,

I'm only showing MB that Titus, a Gentile, was addressed by Paul according to the faith of God's elect.
Therefore, Titus was one of God's elect.

 

[JD731]

GRACE - A NT principle of divine dealing made possible by the cross of Jesus Christ where sin was taken away and God was propitiated by his sacrifice on behalf of all men.The sacrifice of Christ did not dictate that God must be gracious to all men but it was God who sent him and he who agreed to be the sacrifice so God could be just and the justifier of him who believes in Jesus Christ. In the OT we read that God is angry with the sinners every day. He was angry because men sinned. Take the sin away by properly prosecuting it unto death by an innocent substitute and there is nothing to be angry about any more. God is then reconciled to sinners. Why wouldn't he be? He is the judge of all the earth. The penalty of sin has been applied. The demands of the divine law has been satisfied. The judge can be gracious to any one who will come to him and appropriate the divine pardon by faith in his name.Guilty no more

When Noah stepped off the ark in Gen 8 into a new world God put all men under the divine principle of human government. Men would rule over men for God. It got ugly quick and God took a man around 3 centuries later and created a nation over whom he coukld rule and he would give them his laws and discipline them through his ceremonies and thus demonstrate the other nations his power and person. His nation was not charged with evangelism but he sent them to other nations often as his arm of judgment and death on them for their sin. He did not deal with his own nation or other nations under grace, he dealt with them under law. No one could accuse God of killing some people for their sins because the wages of sin is death.God does not need a jury to decide if someone is guilty.

Everything changed when Jesus came. The law of God had done it's job. It had convinced everyone that they are sinners and deserve the judgment they are under. When Jesus died for sin as a perfect man who did keep all his law God raised him from the dead and gave his eternal Spirit as a matter of his grace to anyone who would confess him as their Lord. He is the "Lord" Jesus and men must bow their knee to him and claim their worthiness is in him alone and then God will apply his righteousness to that man who does.God and man must be in perfect agreement about Jesus Christ. Both must declare that he is the only way to be saved.God has done that but most men have not. The ones who do are safe. This is God's grace.God could have been gracious before Jesus came but he could not have excused sin. Today, God is judging nobody because he is not imputing sin. How could he if Jesus had taken it away? Men will be judged when they die according to He 9:27. The door is open now. Sinners must come through it. Time in this age is running out. Today is the day of salvation. Now is the accepted time. Don't wait. Bend the knee now God is gracious. He will save the most vile sinner who comes to him in the name of Jesus Christ.

Do not get this wrong!.

 

[tyndale1946]

GRACE - A NT principle of divine dealing made possible by the cross of Jesus Christ where sin was taken away and God was propitiated by his sacrifice on behalf of all men.The sacrifice of Christ did not dictate that God must be gracious to all men but it was God who sent him and he who agreed to be the sacrifice so God could be just and the justifier of him who believes in Jesus Christ. In the OT we read that God is angry with the sinners every day. He was angry because men sinned. Take the sin away by properly prosecuting it unto death by an innocent substitute and there is nothing to be angry about any more. God is then reconciled to sinners. Why wouldn't he be? He is the judge of all the earth. The penalty of sin has been applied. The demands of the divine law has been satisfied. The judge can be gracious to any one who will come to him and appropriate the divine pardon by faith in his name.Guilty no more

When Noah stepped off the ark in Gen 8 into a new world God put all men under the divine principle of human government. Men would rule over men for God. It got ugly quick and God took a man around 3 centuries later and created a nation over whom he coukld rule and he would give them his laws and discipline them through his ceremonies and thus demonstrate the other nations his power and person. His nation was not charged with evangelism but he sent them to other nations often as his arm of judgment and death on them for their sin. He did not deal with his own nation or other nations under grace, he dealt with them under law. No one could accuse God of killing some people for their sins because the wages of sin is death.God does not need a jury to decide if someone is guilty.

Everything changed when Jesus came. The law of God had done it's job. It had convinced everyone that they are sinners and deserve the judgment they are under. When Jesus died for sin as a perfect man who did keep all his law God raised him from the dead and gave his eternal Spirit as a matter of his grace to anyone who would confess him as their Lord. He is the "Lord" Jesus and men must bow their knee to him and claim their worthiness is in him alone and then God will apply his righteousness to that man who does.God and man must be in perfect agreement about Jesus Christ. Both must declare that he is the only way to be saved.God has done that but most men have not. The ones who do are safe. This is God's grace.God could have been gracious before Jesus came but he could not have excused sin. Today, God is judging nobody because he is not imputing sin. How could he if Jesus had taken it away? Men will be judged when they die according to He 9:27. The door is open now. Sinners must come through it. Time in this age is running out. Today is the day of salvation. Now is the accepted time. Don't wait. Bend the knee now God is gracious. He will save the most vile sinner who comes to him in the name of Jesus Christ.

Do not get this wrong!.

After all that?... The unregenerate sinner cannot come to God unless the Holy Spirit changes him, he is as dead, as the one in the cemetery... He is not playing possum, HE IS DEAD!... When we all get to Heaven we are not going to be singing the old Frank Sinatra favorite... I Did It My Way!... We are going to be singing "JESUS PAID IT ALL"... ALL TO HIM I OWE!... 100%... Excuse me from this conversation... Argue with those who want to, ME!... I've heard it all before... Brother Glen

 

[JD731]

After all that?... The unregenerate sinner cannot come to God unless the Holy Spirit changes him, he is as dead, as the one in the cemetery... He is not playing possum, HE IS DEAD!... When we all get to Heaven we are not going to be singing the old Frank Sinatra favorite... I Did It My Way!... We are going to be singing "JESUS PAID IT ALL"... ALL TO HIM I OWE!... 100%... Excuse me from this conversation... Argue with those who want to, ME!... I've heard it all before... Brother Glen

Jesus Christ was dead for 3 days. Was it the same kind of being dead according to you?

You may think you are honoring God but you are in fact denying the gospel of Christ with your philosophy.

 

[Dave G]

Jesus Christ was dead for 3 days. Was it the same kind of being dead according to you?

The Lord Jesus was never dead in trespasses and sins towards God, JD...
Not like we were before we were born again.

The Lord Himself has made us alive in Christ, spiritually.
Do you understand what it is to be "dead in sins"?

You may think you are honoring God but you are in fact denying the gospel of Christ with your philosophy.

Exactly how does believing the words on the page constitute philosophy?

 

[tyndale1946]

The Lord Jesus was never dead in trespasses and sins towards God, JD...
Not like we were before we were born again.

The Lord Himself has made us alive in Christ, spiritually.
Do you understand what it is to be "dead in sins"?

Exactly how does believing the words on the page constitute philosophy?

JD... These brethren know who I am and what I believe I do not need to defend my self... I'm strict KJV, True Sovereign Grace, Old Line/Old School Primitive Baptist... We believe the scriptures teach Salvation is 100% Jesus Christ alone... The question I have is, who are you?... Brother Glen

 

[Sai]

Sai,

I'm only showing MB that Titus, a Gentile, was addressed by Paul according to the faith of God's elect.
Therefore, Titus was one of God's elect.

Amen. And, Titus was not obligated with circumcision because the Law of Moses had been annulled.

Yet Timothy was elect in accordance with the national election of Israel (not salvation) and thereby was circumcised in obedience to the provisions of the Abrahamic Covenant. Timothy double election one for salvation and one as a Jew.

 

[Sai]

Grace is a ubiquitous reality, not a selective force. (Tit. 2:11-13)

22. Grace is just fine on it’s own as it’s found in scripture. Any modifier other than “free,” such as “sovereign,” “irresistible,” or “prevenient” indicate someone is either confused or attempting to confuse. (Rom. 3:24; 5:15; Jn. 1:16; Tit. 2:11-13)

Wood, Hay, and Barry lol

 

[Sai]

GRACE - A NT principle of divine dealing made possible by the cross of Jesus Christ where sin was taken away and God was propitiated by his sacrifice on behalf of all men.The sacrifice of Christ did not dictate that God must be gracious to all men but it was God who sent him and he who agreed to be the sacrifice so God could be just and the justifier of him who believes in Jesus Christ. In the OT we read that God is angry with the sinners every day. He was angry because men sinned. Take the sin away by properly prosecuting it unto death by an innocent substitute and there is nothing to be angry about any more. God is then reconciled to sinners. Why wouldn't he be? He is the judge of all the earth. The penalty of sin has been applied. The demands of the divine law has been satisfied. The judge can be gracious to any one who will come to him and appropriate the divine pardon by faith in his name.Guilty no more

When Noah stepped off the ark in Gen 8 into a new world God put all men under the divine principle of human government. Men would rule over men for God. It got ugly quick and God took a man around 3 centuries later and created a nation over whom he coukld rule and he would give them his laws and discipline them through his ceremonies and thus demonstrate the other nations his power and person. His nation was not charged with evangelism but he sent them to other nations often as his arm of judgment and death on them for their sin. He did not deal with his own nation or other nations under grace, he dealt with them under law. No one could accuse God of killing some people for their sins because the wages of sin is death.God does not need a jury to decide if someone is guilty.

Everything changed when Jesus came. The law of God had done it's job. It had convinced everyone that they are sinners and deserve the judgment they are under. When Jesus died for sin as a perfect man who did keep all his law God raised him from the dead and gave his eternal Spirit as a matter of his grace to anyone who would confess him as their Lord. He is the "Lord" Jesus and men must bow their knee to him and claim their worthiness is in him alone and then God will apply his righteousness to that man who does.God and man must be in perfect agreement about Jesus Christ. Both must declare that he is the only way to be saved.God has done that but most men have not. The ones who do are safe. This is God's grace.God could have been gracious before Jesus came but he could not have excused sin. Today, God is judging nobody because he is not imputing sin. How could he if Jesus had taken it away? Men will be judged when they die according to He 9:27. The door is open now. Sinners must come through it. Time in this age is running out. Today is the day of salvation. Now is the accepted time. Don't wait. Bend the knee now God is gracious. He will save the most vile sinner who comes to him in the name of Jesus Christ.

Do not get this wrong!.

David would disagree with the part about grace.

God’s dealing with men is now, has been and will only ever be by his grace and mercy.

 

[Sai]

Jesus Christ was dead for 3 days. Was it the same kind of being dead according to you?

You may think you are honoring God but you are in fact denying the gospel of Christ with your philosophy.

Three days, not really. Died Friday Eve raised Saturday eve.

 

[Sai]

There's no such thing as resisting grace. God accomplishes all he planned to bring about.

There’s no need to resist, we simply had no desire for nor realized a need for grace.

 

[Barry Johnson]

Wood, Hay, and Barry lol

Anything constructive to add ? No Grace ?

 

[37818]

Three days, not really. Died Friday Eve raised Saturday eve.

Based on what? Jesus body was not taken from the cross until the eve of the day of preperation, Mark 15:42, "And nowe when the night was come (because it was the day of the preparation that is before the Sabbath)" -- Geneva Bible 1560. The evening goes before the Jewish day. According to Matthew's account Jesus rose from the dead on the first of the week, Matthew 28:1-2.

 

[MB]

Any Grace forced on man is not Grace but domination. "Irresistible Grace" is an oximoron
MB

 

[JD731]

After all that?... The unregenerate sinner cannot come to God unless the Holy Spirit changes him, he is as dead, as the one in the cemetery... He is not playing possum, HE IS DEAD!...

Tynedale1946, you are defending Reformed dogma, not God. You are describing physical death. When someone dies like you are describing, the soul and the body are separated. It is the body that can no longer reason and know, not the soul that lived in it. The rich man in hell in LK 16 still had intellect, reason, and will when he went to hell. To claim that men cannot believe the gospel of Christ when they hear it will get the men who preach it to hell. A soul can be separated from the body even without ever sinning. This often happens when a very young child dies. The soul that sinneth, it shall die according God. Sin is the transgression of the law. If there is no law there is no transgression, so says God.

Well, what does it mean to be dead spiritually? It is not what you say. It is a separation of God from the sinner. What is spiritual life that God gives. It is reconciliation. It is the indwelling Spirit, who IS life. So lets narrow this down. Dead in sins = no God present in the body. Alive in Christ = the Spirit of Christ indwelling the physical body.

If God could have been reconcile to man and indwelt him and quickened him in the OT then Jesus Christ died in vain.God has some other way for washing away sin.

The gospel you preach as reformed believer is a false gospel. It will not save anyone but it will keep some from being saved.
. Your position confuses so, so, many issues.

I know you are not going to like me for saying these things but I want you to know I am not attacking you, i don't know you. My remarks are aimed at the system of TULIP.

The Spirit quickens a man who hears the gospel of Christ and believes it in his heart. That is the simplicity of the gospel. All these things that Reformed doctrine adds to salvation is anathema to God.

13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

The blessing of Abraham is the Spirit of Life according to the above. There is not a reformed believer alive today who believes that as written.

When we all get to Heaven we are not going to be singing the old Frank Sinatra favorite... I Did It My Way!... We are going to be singing "JESUS PAID IT ALL"... ALL TO HIM I OWE!... 100%... Excuse me from this conversation... Argue with those who want to, ME!... I've heard it all before... Brother Glen

Why do you think that believing God when we hear the gospel is "doing it my way?" Why couldn't Jesus have paid it all even if we believed it? I don't get the reasoning.