Tell me what you did say because I understood you said our eternal life went both ways, i.e. no beginning.
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Is 1 Timothy 6:16 Poorly Translated?
- Thread starter Van
- Start date
Did you?
Improvement suggestions for translation would be seen as vain and wasteful only by people who think either their translation cannot be improved or that only "special people" can provide suggestions for improvement. I disagree with both premises.
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George Antonios
Well-Known Member
I disagree with your premise, but it would be vain and wasteful to expend effort to change your view.
In summary, 1 Timothy 6:16 translation choices could be improved as follows:
"the One demonstrating immortality, dwelling in inaccessible light, whom no human has seen or can see, to Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen"
Choosing "demonstrating" over "having" or"possessing" immortality points both to the Father as an eternal being, and to the fact God conveys immortality to others.
Choosing "inaccessible" over "unapproachable" avoids the misconception that God's realm is unapproachable when in fact scripture teaches we are to seek the kingdom of God. Matthew 6:33
Choosing "human" over "man" or "one" allows that angels see the Father, Matthew 18:10
Choosing "dominion" over "power" heightens our glorification of our sovereign Lord.
As we study scripture and evaluate the intended message, considering alternate and perhaps better translation choices helps us in our effort to rightly divide the word of truth.
"the One demonstrating immortality, dwelling in inaccessible light, whom no human has seen or can see, to Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen"
Choosing "demonstrating" over "having" or"possessing" immortality points both to the Father as an eternal being, and to the fact God conveys immortality to others.
Choosing "inaccessible" over "unapproachable" avoids the misconception that God's realm is unapproachable when in fact scripture teaches we are to seek the kingdom of God. Matthew 6:33
Choosing "human" over "man" or "one" allows that angels see the Father, Matthew 18:10
Choosing "dominion" over "power" heightens our glorification of our sovereign Lord.
As we study scripture and evaluate the intended message, considering alternate and perhaps better translation choices helps us in our effort to rightly divide the word of truth.
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Well one of us seems confused, perhaps both.
It is true, physically we will not "put on" immortality until the redemption of our bodies (Romans 8:23). But with our spiritual rebirth in Christ, we were made alive together with Christ, and thus right now have eternal life. John 3:16.
At spiritual rebirth in Christ were we not made, "heirs of hope of eternal life," not inheritors of eternal life?
which he poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that we might be justified by his grace and become heirs in hope of eternal life. Titus 3:6,7 RSV
That hope being the same hope of Romans 8:20,24,25 - For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance.
I believe that, in the future, in a moment in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump, the soul will put on immortality with an incorruptible body either raised and or changed.
Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 1 Cor 15:51
I almost always have difficulty determining what is your point! Are you trying to deny those born anew have, present tense, eternal life? Do we have spiritual eternal life, being made alive together with Christ? Yes. All those who believe into Christ have eternal life. John 3:16 does not say we will perish, but shall not perish, and the inescapable result is we will never die. Got it.
Note Romans 8:23 refers to our "bodily redemption" because we have been (if born anew) spiritually redeemed. Galatians 3:13, 1 Peter 1:18
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The problem here is that the Greek says, 'having' (echon), in the sense of holding or possessing. Whilst it is a great error to suppose that a Greek word can be translated by only one word in English, it is a far worse error to suppose that the Greek is a sort of wax nose that can be pummelled into any shape one wishes. I am not aware of anywhere in the Bible that echo is translated 'demonstrate' by any responsible version. Unless therefore Van can show me such a place, I am of the view that 'demonstrate' is outside the semantic range of echo. What the text means is that immortality is God's possession and He gives it to whom He wills. Paul, steeped in the O.T. Scriptures doubtless had Psalms 36:9 in mind, as well as Psalms 41:13; Isaiah 40:28 and Daniel 4:34-35.
Of the translations listed in the O.P., the CSB is undoubtedly the worst because the original does not say that God 'is immortal,' but that He 'has immortality.' We have to translate what's there and not what we would like to be there.
The Greek word is aprositos, which is formed from 'a-' which is a negative, and an adjective formed from prosiemi, 'go to,' so I don't see that it matters whether one uses 'inaccessible' or 'unapproachable;' as both words show that no one can go there unless God allows (c.f. Exodus 24:17 etc.. However, as well as Matthew 6:33, I would be inclined to consider Matthew 7:8. 'To him who knocks it will be opened.' We knock; God opens.
Are angels men??? Paul was thinking of verses like Exodus 33:20; Deuteronomy 4:12; Isaiah 6:5, as well, perhaps as John 1:18.The natural meaning of kratos is 'force,' 'strength' or 'might,' especially 'manifested might' (Vine). As the word is translated 'dominion' in several places in the N.T., no objection can be made to using that word here, but I suspect that the translators have tended to choose 'power' because God has already been described as 'King of Kings and Lord of lords' so that His dominion is already expressed.
While I cannot quite agree with @George Antonios that the KJV cannot be improved upon, that view is much to be preferred to the belief that one can substitute whatever words one wishes if they tend to advance one's own faulty understanding.
1) I addressed the range of meanings in the OP, with meaning #3 as being in the ascribed condition. Therefore I have already shown "having immortality" can be accurately translated also as "is immortal" which means God is manifesting" immortality, thus "demonstrating" immortality. Here is the lexicon quote "3 - to hold one's self or find one's self so and so, to be in such or such a condition
2) Thus the CSB is quite correct with "is immortal" because God is in such a condition.
3) As I indicated, the translators chose "dominion" to emphasize His "ruling power."
4) The claim I substituted words outside the semantic range is utterly false.
5) Using human is more narrow than "man or one" in that Jesus is man and yet has seen the Father (John 6:45) and angels have seen the Father Matthew 18:10. This choice avoids suggesting Jesus is not a man or has not seen the Father. Perhaps another choice would be even better. Got any ideas?
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With "demonstrating immortality" in mind, what passages come to mind? How about "before Abraham was, I Am. Or how about old faithful, the empty tomb? And just how many physically dead people did Jesus and His Apostles bring back to life? Does 1 Timothy 6:12-13 come to mind? 
Several posters expressed the idea "demonstrating" goes too far afield from the core meanings of the Greek "echo." They preferred "having immortality" or "possessing immortality" although both choices fall short of addressing that God conveys immortality. While contextually (verses 12-13) have that characteristic in view, does literalness point back to "having" or possessing?" Can "having" or "possessing" be understood to not only refer to the core characteristic of God's immortality, but also to His having or possessing for distribution immortality?
I believe the word states those with the Spirit have assurance, of the hope of, eternal life.Titus 3:7, Cor 5:5
The hope spoken of in Romans 8:24.25
For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
? In the kingdom of God, of 1 Cor 15:50, will you find any souls without a body?
We can only see it in Christ. In the gospel. By gospel I mean the death and resurrection out of death of Jesus, born of woman.
2 Tim 1:10 (Darby because of underlined) but has been made manifest now by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who has annulled death, and brought to light life <in the context of Rom 6:9 knowing that Christ, having been raised up out of the dead, doth no more die, death over him hath no more lordship
and incorruptibility by the glad tidings (gospel);1) The hope in Titus 3:7 is for our future bodily redemption, because being justified, we have been spiritually placed in Christ, thus having received eternal life.I believe the word states those with the Spirit have assurance, of the hope of, eternal life.Titus 3:7, Cor 5:5
The hope spoken of in Romans 8:24.25
For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
? In the kingdom of God, of 1 Cor 15:50, will you find any souls without a body?
We can only see it in Christ. In the gospel. By gospel I mean the death and resurrection out of death of Jesus, born of woman.
2 Tim 1:10 (Darby because of underlined) but has been made manifest now by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who has annulled death, and brought to light life <in the context of Rom 6:9 knowing that Christ, having been raised up out of the dead, doth no more die, death over him hath no more lordship
2) 1 Corinthians 5:5 refers to the future spiritual salvation of a tare.
3) Romans 8:24-25 refers to our hope for our future eternal life, but note it says we are saved already!
4) 1 Corinthians 15:50 simply says our mortal, corruptible flesh and blood body will be changed in the twinkling of an eye at our bodily redemption. None germane to the bogus claim of those born anew not yet having spiritual eternal life. John 3:16 says we shall never perish.
5) Scripture tells us to examine ourselves to see if we are of the faith. Therefore we can "see" meaning "comprehend" we are of the faith, a sibling of Christ, and a child of God.
Two reasons.
1. I am perfectly happy with the mainstream translations of the verse.
2. I do not regard myself as able to propose alternative improvements with any confidence. Since my conversion, I have spent huge amounts of time studying theology and feel able to discuss it with a degree of authority, but Bible translation requires an expertise in the sacred languages that I do not possess. However, I know enough Greek to know that your suggestions in this thread are wrong and I have said so.
Just because you seem unable to consider studying the word meanings, given in English in the Lexicons, and choose among the differing English translations, does not preclude that nearly all bible students are able.
In summary, 1 Timothy 6:16 translation choices could be improved as follows:
"the One exhibiting immortality, dwelling in inaccessible light, whom no human has seen or can see, to Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen"
1. Chose "one" over "only one" because if the best choice is possessing, all those born anew possess spiritual immortality.
2. Chose "inaccessible" over unapproachable because the kingdom is approachable as indicated by Matthew 23:13.
3. Chose "human" over man or one because Jesus and angels have seen the Father.
4. Chose "dominion" over power to emphasize our acceptance of God's sovereignty.
5. Settled on "exhibiting" over having, possessing, manifesting or demonstrating to emphasize the obvious nature of His characteristic. This choice is consistent with sick folks exhibiting illness, and healthy folks exhibiting wellness thus in such and such a condition.
"the One exhibiting immortality, dwelling in inaccessible light, whom no human has seen or can see, to Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen"
1. Chose "one" over "only one" because if the best choice is possessing, all those born anew possess spiritual immortality.
2. Chose "inaccessible" over unapproachable because the kingdom is approachable as indicated by Matthew 23:13.
3. Chose "human" over man or one because Jesus and angels have seen the Father.
4. Chose "dominion" over power to emphasize our acceptance of God's sovereignty.
5. Settled on "exhibiting" over having, possessing, manifesting or demonstrating to emphasize the obvious nature of His characteristic. This choice is consistent with sick folks exhibiting illness, and healthy folks exhibiting wellness thus in such and such a condition.
When the Bourbon kings of France were restored to power after the Napoleonic Wars, it was said of them that they had learned nothing and forgotten nothing. 'Nuff said.