Is a little alcohol alright with the Bible?

[GrannyGumbo]

I posted this on the other drinking thread & will also do so here:

My concern is for any young person who may be reading all this...I hope you realize that alcohol and drugs are your enemies! The dope pusher, the beer company, they direct their advertising toward you for one purpose: to make a dollar.

If their product kills you, so what? They have made their $$$. The "cool Christian" sez, "I can drink and be a good Christian too." ***remarks deleted***
Such people are a disgrace to the name of Christ and a far cry from the Bible pattern for Christian living. Romans 12:1,2(KJBible)

The Baptist church covenant reads, "We also engage...to abstain from the sale and use of intoxicating drinks as a beverage."

Some would even try to make God a party to their drinking by saying that He sanctioned it. Jesus would never have gone against the clear teachings of the Scripture. He would not give anyone something that would intoxicate them.

The Child of God must think of his influence on those around him. Drinking ruins the influence of the saint on the lost person. Instead of trying to excape through a temporary relief, the Holy Spirit should be allowed to help one escape to Christ (permanent relief).

[ September 29, 2002, 12:21 AM: Message edited by: C.S. Murphy ]

 

[BrianT]

Originally posted by GrannyGumbo:

The "cool Christian" sez, "I can drink and be a good Christian too." *** edited to remove remarks***

You claim to believe the Bible: do you believe 1 Cor 8 and Rom 14 when they talk about it is the *weaker* believer that thinks partaking is a sin, and the *stronger* believer is he that has faith and knowledge that it is not? Why do these passages say the *exact opposite* of what you just said about being a *** edited out remark** Christian"?

Granny, we all agree alcohol can be abused, and it is a sin to do so. No one is debating that.

[ September 29, 2002, 12:23 AM: Message edited by: C.S. Murphy ]

 

[Pastor_Bob]

I was watching True Grit last night. The young lady made this comment in reference to whiskey. "I refuse to allow a thief in my mouth who will steal my brains."

This is one of the few times I agree with Hollywood.

 

[Optional]

GG:
Such people are a disgrace to the name of Christ and a far cry from the Bible pattern for Christian living. Romans 12:1,2(KJBible)

A disgrace? Hmmmm...that's pretty strong and judgmental. Scripture says wine is a blessing. There are many instances of Christ being around drink and partaking. Watch who you say is a disgrace.

GG:
Some would even try to make God a party to their drinking by saying that He sanctioned it. Jesus would never have gone against the clear teachings of the Scripture. He would not give anyone something that would intoxicate them.

Wow! I read the KJ Bible, also. I missed that. Is there some secret code in yours that tells of Jesus removing the alcohol from the wine?

GG:
Instead of trying to excape through a temporary relief, the Holy Spirit should be allowed to help one escape to Christ (permanent relief).

As others have done you have purposely confused what has been said. Abuse of drinking, i.e. drunkeness, is sinful. An occasional drink does not mean you are "escaping" anything as you ARE NOT drunk.

I don't drink. I, also, don't drink anything with caffeine in it either. This is a personal choice - not because the Bible condemns it.
Do you drink tea or coffee or coke, etc.? A little caffeine is worse for you than a little alcohol. If sugar is added, it's much worse.
In fact, recent studies show a little alcohol is good for you. Seems the Bible knows what it's talking about!

[ September 29, 2002, 10:41 PM: Message edited by: Optional ]

 

[Jim1999]

In fact, recent studies show a little alcohol is good for you. Seems the Bible knows what it's talking about!

That same recent study says, if one never consumed alcoholic beverages it is not recommended they start. The effects are not the same. (The Canadian Medical Association, 2000)

But nevermind, these studies have a habit of reversing themselves every few years,,remember the coffee is bad, the coffee is ok edict?

It seems we can justify anything we want to do. I just don't understand the wanting. (That is a personal thing...I really don't care what you do)

Cheers,

Jim

 

[C.S. Murphy]

Originally posted by BrianT:
[/qb]

You claim to believe the Bible: do you believe 1 Cor 8 and Rom 14 when they talk about it is the *weaker* believer that thinks partaking is a sin, and the *stronger* believer is he that has faith and knowledge that it is not?

Brian why is that all you seem concerned with is who is weaker or stronger. I still believe you have no clue about Paul's teachings on liberty. Try Romans 15:1 "We that are strong ought to bear the infirmities of the weak and not to please ourselves." Now concerning your claim that you have never offended any weaker brother by your drinking let me say that I am apparently weaker than you and I have been offended by your drinking so what do you plan to do about it. I would like you to answer my point about Romans 15:1 without jumping off on doughnuts or internet porn if possible.
Murph

 

[C.S. Murphy]

Pastor Bob I love that movie of course there aren't many John Wayne films that I don't like.

Murph

 

[BrianT]

Originally posted by C.S. Murphy:

Brian why is that all you seem concerned with is who is weaker or stronger.

That is not all I am concerned about. But I repeated it because it is a point everyone is sidestepping for some reason. People here think that wine is inherently sinful. The issue of stronger/weaker simple proves that idea is false.

I still believe you have no clue about Paul's teachings on liberty. Try Romans 15:1 "We that are strong ought to bear the infirmities of the weak and not to please ourselves."

I totally understand Paul's teaching on liberty, whether you believe I do or not. Apparently you don't for you think these passages exist for the purpose of browbeating people who don't agree with you, and would possibly "offend" you by their actions. Well, I'm "offended" that you are doing this - whatcha going to do about it?

Now concerning your claim that you have never offended any weaker brother by your drinking let me say that I am apparently weaker than you and I have been offended by your drinking so what do you plan to do about it.

I have already (and repeatedly) addressed this issue, about "offense" and your misuse/misundertstanding of the term. If this is how it works, none of us can even be a Christian in the first place, for everything is going to offend somebody. Some KJV-only folk are offended that I read other translations, some non-KJV-only folk would be offended if I read only the KJV. If I am supposed to avoid offending anyone, should I read only the KJV or not? You better throw away your computer and avoid Krispi Kreme and live in a commune (but don't tell anyone, they might get offended) if that is how you are going to apply it. I hope I don't have to make this point *again* later, I've already made it several times. I have not caused you to think getting drunk is acceptable, and you know it - so stop the games.

Another point: this is a fundamental forum, so please take the Bible literally. 1 Cor 8:10 says "For if any man see thee..." When have you seen me drink? You haven't.

And even if you did see me, please explain how that would make you "perish"?

I would like you to answer my point about Romans 15:1 without jumping off on doughnuts or internet porn if possible.

But those examples are helping me make my point - a point you keep ignoring. Don't ask me to respond if I'm not allowed to even make a point. Rom 15:1 says nothing about total abstinence, or that having a drink of wine with dinner is a sin. Don't read more into it that is there, this is a fundamental forum after all.

Edit to add this comment: Rom 14:2 says "For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs." Do you believe all Christians should be vegetarians, and/or that eating meat is a sin, because we should consider the weaker believer who would be "offended" by the thougth of eating meat?

[ September 29, 2002, 11:49 AM: Message edited by: BrianT ]

 

[C.S. Murphy]

Originally posted by BrianT:
Romans 15:1 "We that are strong ought to bear the infirmities of the weak and not to please ourselves."

Brian this verse is saying that when a weaker brother is concerned that we should put him before ourselves. In your drinking you do not follow this.

You better throw away your computer and avoid Krispi Kreme

I knew you couldn't resist going back to the doughnuts

Murph

 

[BrianT]

Originally posted by C.S. Murphy:
Romans 15:1 "We that are strong ought to bear the infirmities of the weak and not to please ourselves."

Brian this verse is saying that when a weaker brother is concerned that we should put him before ourselves. In your drinking you do not follow this.

I *do* put my brother before myself in this area (I do not drink when a weaker brother is around). The verse does not say abstain altogether from anything and everything that someone somewhere thinks is a sin.

I knew you couldn't resist going back to the doughnuts

Do you think gluttony is a sin?

 

[russell55]

C. S. Murphy--

I was sort of interested in your answer to the vegetarian question. How do you personally make sure you don't offend a brother or sister who thinks it is wrong to eat meat?

 

[C.S. Murphy]

Originally posted by BrianT:

I *do* put my brother before myself in this area (I do not drink when a weaker brother is around). The verse does not say abstain altogether from anything and everything that someone somewhere thinks is a sin.

I feel it definately says to abstain if a brother is present. We have been over this before and while I cannot know your heart I feel certain that you cannot possibly know who has seen or will see you drink. I hope that God will instruct you in the truth that someone is seeing you drink and that they are offended in that. If I am wrong and nobody is offended I can guarranty one thing and that is that God is not glorified in any activity that one must look around to see who is present before they partake in it.

I knew you couldn't resist going back to the doughnuts

Do you think gluttony is a sin?[/QB][/QUOTE]

This thread is about alcohol, yes I know gluttony is sin. So why keep using this as a shield.
Murph

 

[C.S. Murphy]

Originally posted by russell55:
C. S. Murphy--

I was sort of interested in your answer to the vegetarian question. How do you personally make sure you don't offend a brother or sister who thinks it is wrong to eat meat?

If I had knowledge that a person in my presence was a vegetarian I would act as a vegetarian, more greens and less meat would be better for me anyway. Would you like to start a new thread on eating meat vs vegetables?
Murph

 

[BrianT]

Originally posted by C.S. Murphy:

This thread is about alcohol, yes I know gluttony is sin. So why keep using this as a shield.

Murph, after *8* pages of this you still do not understand why I keep bringing it up? OK, let's see if this helps:

Activity 'x' is not sinful in and of itself, but if abused it is sinful. If you have knowledge faith that activity 'x' is alright, that is fine and not only is it not a sin, but you are happy and faithful before the Lord. However, if you think activity 'x' is not alright, then do not partake, because it would be a sin for you because whatever is not of faith is sin. Also, if you have faith and believe the Bible when it says that activity 'x' is not a sin but is in fact "pure", but if the circumstances are such that partaking of activity 'x' would cause a weaker brother to stumble in some way, do not partake of activity 'x' for your brother's sake.

The above is true and applies, regardless of whether 'x' is wine, chocolate, meat, going to the beach, using the internet, going to a concert, romancing your spouse, smoking a cigar, working out at the gym, reading a novel, playing sports, going to an art exhibit, fashion, employment, etc, etc, etc.

Using gluttony is NOT a shield. It is another application of the very principles we are talking about. I have a hard time believing we've come this far and you have not understood this. Do you believe you shouldn't drink wine because you might cause a brother to stumble, but if you partake of another activity and cause a brother to stumble into gluttony or pornography or cheating on his taxes, that's his problem?

[ September 29, 2002, 11:07 PM: Message edited by: BrianT ]

 

[BrianT]

[ September 29, 2002, 11:07 PM: Message edited by: BrianT ]

 

[Johnv]

How do you personally make sure you don't offend a brother or sister who thinks it is wrong to eat meat?

I would never think of inviting the local Rabbi over for dinner and then serve him pork. That would simply be a display of my own lack of character....

If I invite a vegeterian over for dinner, I would serve them vegeterian food. Since I'm an omnivour, there would be no offense towards me if I ate a vegerian meal at their house as well.

Likewise, if it would be in poor form to take a teatotler to a sports bar for dinner.

[ September 30, 2002, 12:46 AM: Message edited by: Johnv ]

 

[ChristianCynic]

Originally posted by GrannyGumbo:
The Baptist church covenant reads, "We also engage...to abstain from the sale and use of intoxicating drinks as a beverage."

Grace.
I have seen this "Church Covenant" used deceitfully. Many churches have copies of it or glue copies in the hymnbooks, but I have not seen a new member join a church and be required to state (s)he agrees to every word of this creed. But then, if the subject of the use or sale of alcoholic beverages is brought up, it is claimed someone is obligated to this covenant. No one is obligated to what they never agreed to, and very possibly did not know existed in any form.

Some would even try to make God a party to their drinking by saying that He sanctioned it. Jesus would never have gone against the clear teachings of the Scripture. He would not give anyone something that would intoxicate them.

Would Jesus have given strong drink to those ready to perish and wine to those of heavy hearts (Proverbs 31:6), or would He have "gone against the clear teachings of the Scripture?"

 

[C.S. Murphy]

Brian we can donut this to death but Romans 15:1 says "not to please ourselves" so my question is why not abstain instead of having to go into stealth mode to make sure you don't offend. Paul said not to please ourself apparently your drinking pleases you or you wouldn't partake so is Paul not saying die to self?
Murph

 

[blackbird]

Hey, Brother 'Cynic! I need receipts and cash tickets from every place you've been while on extended vacation from "Baptist Board" dot com! I'm doing a "Blackbird" investigation! Ole Blackbird isn't quite a "know it all!" you know!

Brother BrianT says he ain't gonna take a "pull" from the longneck if "they's a weak brother" around! That just means that he'll have to "spiritual arm wrestle" every brother and sister around the board and in his church--and if he wins just one match . . . !

I've discovered that indulging in intoxicating beverages for mudisicpal purposes(for the joy of drinking it other than for use of someone perishing or needing a little of it to settle a stomach problem like constipation) is reserves for the weakest of the flock!

Your friend,
Blackbird

 

[BrianT]

Originally posted by C.S. Murphy:
but Romans 15:1 says "not to please ourselves" so my question is why not abstain instead of having to go into stealth mode to make sure you don't offend. Paul said not to please ourself apparently your drinking pleases you or you wouldn't partake so is Paul not saying die to self?

Murph! You're not listening! Take out "drinking" and insert "activity x" into your question, then think about it.