-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Is Abortion really Murder?
- Thread starter post-it
- Start date
JOseph, sorry I missed your request -- threads get buried so fast!
Here you go:
Numbers 14:27-31
"How long will this wicked community grumble against me? I have heard the complaints of these grumbling Israelites. So tell them, 'As surely as I live, declares the Lord, I will do to you the very things I heard you say: In this desert your bodies will fall -- every one of you twenty years old or more who was counted in the census and who has grumbled against me. Not one of you will enter the land I swore with uplifted hand to make your home, except Caleb son of Jephunneh and Joshua son of Nun. As for your children that you said would be taken as plunder, I will bring them in to enjoy the land you have rejected. But you -- your bodies will fall in this desert. Your children will be shepherds here for forty years, suffering for your unfaithfulness, until the last of your bodies lies in the desert.'"
Here you go:
Numbers 14:27-31
"How long will this wicked community grumble against me? I have heard the complaints of these grumbling Israelites. So tell them, 'As surely as I live, declares the Lord, I will do to you the very things I heard you say: In this desert your bodies will fall -- every one of you twenty years old or more who was counted in the census and who has grumbled against me. Not one of you will enter the land I swore with uplifted hand to make your home, except Caleb son of Jephunneh and Joshua son of Nun. As for your children that you said would be taken as plunder, I will bring them in to enjoy the land you have rejected. But you -- your bodies will fall in this desert. Your children will be shepherds here for forty years, suffering for your unfaithfulness, until the last of your bodies lies in the desert.'"
Maverick, If you read the Talmudic explanation of the man bringing his son before the elders, you will understand this is a grown son that is being talked about, not a child. To the best of my knowledge, there was never anything but the understanding among the Jews that this referenced a grown son, not a child.
edit: the fact that this son is listed as a profligate and a drunkard should be a pretty good clue that this is not a child being referred to!
[ August 25, 2002, 02:02 PM: Message edited by: Helen ]
edit: the fact that this son is listed as a profligate and a drunkard should be a pretty good clue that this is not a child being referred to!
[ August 25, 2002, 02:02 PM: Message edited by: Helen ]
Maverick
Member
I believe that I said that when I quote dthe passage that this lad was grown, but the crimes are far less serioous than murder and yet they rated the death penalty.
If there is an age limit to this I have not seen it. Accountability is the issue. If a person regardless of age knows right from wrong and commits a capital offense then he/she can
receive the death penalty. Find me an age limit in Scripture and I will agree with you, but there does not seem to be any. If it is not an accidental killing then it is murder and the death penalty is the only option. There is no such thing as life imprisonment taught in Scripture. Actually, life is really a more cruel and unusual punishment. They are exposure to constant danger by other inmates. They become more hardened and in many cases kill other prisoners or guards and what can you do to them? They are already in jail and you won't execute them. They influence younger prisoners who are there for lesser crimes, but somehow see these guys as mentors/heroes and come out worse than when they went in and more likely to commit worse crimes than what they were initially incarcerated for. Will you jail an 8 year old for life? If not, how long can he serve to pay for a life if an adult never gets out. You have unequal scales for pre-meditated murder and teaching kids to try out whatever crimes they want to try as long as they are underage as they will get off completely or get at least a far less sentence than their adult counterparts. If you keep them in detention until they are 18 then they need to cap someone at 16 or 17 since they will only spend 1-2 years for the crime instead of life or execution.
Again, if they understand right from wrong and know that killing is wrong then age is not a variable in computing penalty. We need to stop child evangelism. Christ said if I tell you earthly things and you do not understand then how can you understand heavenly things? If a child cannot understand that murder is wrong until he is 13 or whatever then he cannot possibly understand the Gospel and yet Christ says that our faith must be as a child and bring children to them. Hence they can understand heavenly things at a young age and therefore earthly things like theft, murder, etc can also be understood and therefore they are accountable. If accountable then punishable with whatever penalty is assigned to the crime.
If there is an age limit to this I have not seen it. Accountability is the issue. If a person regardless of age knows right from wrong and commits a capital offense then he/she can
receive the death penalty. Find me an age limit in Scripture and I will agree with you, but there does not seem to be any. If it is not an accidental killing then it is murder and the death penalty is the only option. There is no such thing as life imprisonment taught in Scripture. Actually, life is really a more cruel and unusual punishment. They are exposure to constant danger by other inmates. They become more hardened and in many cases kill other prisoners or guards and what can you do to them? They are already in jail and you won't execute them. They influence younger prisoners who are there for lesser crimes, but somehow see these guys as mentors/heroes and come out worse than when they went in and more likely to commit worse crimes than what they were initially incarcerated for. Will you jail an 8 year old for life? If not, how long can he serve to pay for a life if an adult never gets out. You have unequal scales for pre-meditated murder and teaching kids to try out whatever crimes they want to try as long as they are underage as they will get off completely or get at least a far less sentence than their adult counterparts. If you keep them in detention until they are 18 then they need to cap someone at 16 or 17 since they will only spend 1-2 years for the crime instead of life or execution.
Again, if they understand right from wrong and know that killing is wrong then age is not a variable in computing penalty. We need to stop child evangelism. Christ said if I tell you earthly things and you do not understand then how can you understand heavenly things? If a child cannot understand that murder is wrong until he is 13 or whatever then he cannot possibly understand the Gospel and yet Christ says that our faith must be as a child and bring children to them. Hence they can understand heavenly things at a young age and therefore earthly things like theft, murder, etc can also be understood and therefore they are accountable. If accountable then punishable with whatever penalty is assigned to the crime.
Wisdom Seeker
New Member
Prasenik wrote:
EW!!! This thread is particularly hard for me to read... I repeat EW!!!
Maverick
Member
Mercy is not given in murder cases, but once for David. Adultery and Murder had no sacrifice and their were no instructions about mitigating circumstances. I don't like the idea of executing a minor that commits murder. I don't like the idea of one committing murder or rape or any other crimes, but reality is that they do and today they are not the little innocent mudpie makers they were in our or our grandpa's day. They are cold blooded and calculating and if an adult dies for that kind of crime so should they.
The Kennedy case is a good one. He committed the crime as a child, but the lawhas no statue of limitations on murder and it took 20 years to catch him. He has had 20 years longer than hs victim. If guilty, he should die now or 20 years ago. It is that simple. If you wuld make an 8 year old thief repay what he stole with interest like an adult then why is murder different? If you don't treat the young thief like an adult he will become an adult thief. A child murderer will most likely become an adult murderer and so more innocent people will die because of someone who should have been cut off from his people.
The Kennedy case is a good one. He committed the crime as a child, but the lawhas no statue of limitations on murder and it took 20 years to catch him. He has had 20 years longer than hs victim. If guilty, he should die now or 20 years ago. It is that simple. If you wuld make an 8 year old thief repay what he stole with interest like an adult then why is murder different? If you don't treat the young thief like an adult he will become an adult thief. A child murderer will most likely become an adult murderer and so more innocent people will die because of someone who should have been cut off from his people.
fromtheright
<img src =/2844.JPG>
I think you'll find in the states that outlawed abortion pre- Roe that extremely few if any prescribed the death penalty for a woman who had an abortion.
abortion is not murder!
a child in the womb is biologically alive, but it does not have a soul, which only be imputed to him during his birth, immediately causing his first breath.
abortion, however, is many times a treatment of life lightly and disrespectfully. a fetus has a potential for life, and that by itself gives a fetus the worth of birth and life.
there are, however, cases where abortion cannot really be seen to be as evil as it generally seems. for example:
1. when a rape victim gets pregnant. in this case i believe she should be allowed to choose for abortion or not. everytime she feels the fetus inside her, what she remembers is the trauma. when the child is born, she might be more of an avenging victim rather than a caring mother to the baby. it may be otherwise, but she should be given the choice. and no, don't blame her! blame the rapist and the extremist anti-abortion people! otherwise, get yourself raped, for one cannot really understand the trauma of it without experience. until then, leave the right of the victim for her life after rape, and the welfare of the child after birth with her mother.
abortion is not murder, and though very strict rules should be planned to prevent it, considerations must be carefully planned too.
a child in the womb is biologically alive, but it does not have a soul, which only be imputed to him during his birth, immediately causing his first breath.
abortion, however, is many times a treatment of life lightly and disrespectfully. a fetus has a potential for life, and that by itself gives a fetus the worth of birth and life.
there are, however, cases where abortion cannot really be seen to be as evil as it generally seems. for example:
1. when a rape victim gets pregnant. in this case i believe she should be allowed to choose for abortion or not. everytime she feels the fetus inside her, what she remembers is the trauma. when the child is born, she might be more of an avenging victim rather than a caring mother to the baby. it may be otherwise, but she should be given the choice. and no, don't blame her! blame the rapist and the extremist anti-abortion people! otherwise, get yourself raped, for one cannot really understand the trauma of it without experience. until then, leave the right of the victim for her life after rape, and the welfare of the child after birth with her mother.
abortion is not murder, and though very strict rules should be planned to prevent it, considerations must be carefully planned too.
I have heard this, and do not agree, at all. Like I said before, Luke 1:39-45 certainly seem to be saying a fetus has a soul already. Saying fetus has no soul is the perfect way to justify abortion. And I am not buying it.
Anyone who gets an abortion shows themselves not to know that they definitely have the emotional and financial resources to raise a child.
If the parents of the woman and/or biological father of the child put pressure on the woman to have an abortion, ought they to get the death penalty too? It might have been more their decision than the woman's, in some cases, imo.
I suppose the parents won't figure in as much if the woman is at least 20. But I expect the biological father does, often.
AITB
Maverick
Member
fromtheright in 'Bama, you are coreect, but they weren't. Murder is murder and if you murder your child while in the womb or out that makes you a murderer.
AKI, try Jeremiah 1:5. God knows the person before the egg and sperm meet and already considers the child a living soul since He calls them to be prophets before hand. He expects conception to end in a viable birth because He see them already born. You can't kill a baby and say that it is soul less. God breathed into Adam and though He does not say it the breath of life into Eve. That does not mean that He has to repeat the exact act for each human nor does it mean breathing straight O2 make you a soul and breathing O2 out of a liquid makes you not a soul. Where did you get that concept?
AKI, try Jeremiah 1:5. God knows the person before the egg and sperm meet and already considers the child a living soul since He calls them to be prophets before hand. He expects conception to end in a viable birth because He see them already born. You can't kill a baby and say that it is soul less. God breathed into Adam and though He does not say it the breath of life into Eve. That does not mean that He has to repeat the exact act for each human nor does it mean breathing straight O2 make you a soul and breathing O2 out of a liquid makes you not a soul. Where did you get that concept?
I think this is a personal issue. while I don't agree with abortion at all...I worry about these illegal abortions. They are by far more dangerous, than perhaps if allowed to have one in a hospital. I never know how to view this issue when I am against abortion. I don't like the idea of shady doctors, or maybe not even a doctor, who is using instruments, or ideas, that could cause not only an unborn babies death...but perhaps even the death of the mother.
I don't think giving the mother the death penalty, or even a prison sentence is the answer. It just makes it even more secretive, and its still illegal.
I think there are instances when there is a health factor, that perhaps an emegency abortion might be necessary.
I don't think we are able to say what the perfect answer is except that maybe no sex before marriage is the answer. For the most part. There are those who are even married, that do not want children for whatever reasons, and they have abortions. In my opinion that is so wrong.
Maybe the answer is no sex before marriage, and whoever performs the abortion is the one who should be accountable along with the mother. But a death penalty...I do not know about.
Sherrie
I don't think giving the mother the death penalty, or even a prison sentence is the answer. It just makes it even more secretive, and its still illegal.
I think there are instances when there is a health factor, that perhaps an emegency abortion might be necessary.
I don't think we are able to say what the perfect answer is except that maybe no sex before marriage is the answer. For the most part. There are those who are even married, that do not want children for whatever reasons, and they have abortions. In my opinion that is so wrong.
Maybe the answer is no sex before marriage, and whoever performs the abortion is the one who should be accountable along with the mother. But a death penalty...I do not know about.
Sherrie
Maverick
Member
Again, murder is not a personal choice. Emergency abortions for the life of the mother are not the same as kill as you will, which is the current law. Murder is a capital offense. It would be eaiser to carry the baby and give it up for adoption than face a death penalty so I would thing that it would slow it down. Right now the blood is on our hands as a nation because we condone it. If it were illegal then the blood is on the abortionist and the mother. We will pay for this as a nation and 9-11 may just be the first installment.
See once we started playing God with life the whole mess gets sticky. We are killing millions of children each year and maybe less than 100 of those may have something to do with the mother's life. Most of those could most likely be fixed, but witht he doctor's having the "oh well it is only tissue" they just don't work as hard as they did before abortion was legal.
See once we started playing God with life the whole mess gets sticky. We are killing millions of children each year and maybe less than 100 of those may have something to do with the mother's life. Most of those could most likely be fixed, but witht he doctor's having the "oh well it is only tissue" they just don't work as hard as they did before abortion was legal.
I am totally against Abortion Mr.Maverick! But you don't know the first thing about giving anything or anybody up! You don't even know about being the one given up. You rattle on and on and yet your answer for the whole thing is murder for murder.
What should we do with hatemonglers? Its against the Commandments. Should we impose a death sentance on them too.
Hate is not the answer. Your ideas are warpped. Lets just kill everybody who does anything wrong. Lets leave no room for forgiveness or even for educating. Lets not teach the world how to live a life that is lead by God. Lets just judge and Judge and judge! So be it Mr. Maverick! We will just forget about Jesus. Your perfect MR. Maverick...you throw the first stone!
Now then whose left!
Sherrie
[ August 31, 2002, 12:40 PM: Message edited by: Sherrie ]
What should we do with hatemonglers? Its against the Commandments. Should we impose a death sentance on them too.
Hate is not the answer. Your ideas are warpped. Lets just kill everybody who does anything wrong. Lets leave no room for forgiveness or even for educating. Lets not teach the world how to live a life that is lead by God. Lets just judge and Judge and judge! So be it Mr. Maverick! We will just forget about Jesus. Your perfect MR. Maverick...you throw the first stone!
Now then whose left!
Sherrie
[ August 31, 2002, 12:40 PM: Message edited by: Sherrie ]
Maverick
Member
We are not talking about perfection or emotions or hate or anything else. The subject started out with a scenario that some day if abortion is outlawed does that make it murder and what do you do with the offender. That is the issue. If abortion is declared illegal and murder then a perpetrator of this crime is to be dealt with according to the laws of the land. If someone takes a .357 and caps a 50 year old and he dies and the person is convicted of the crime and the law allows for the death penalty then that person is put to death. Ergo if. in our scenario.l a person takes a coat hanger, a suction machine or whatever and murders a child in the womb then the law constitutes that to be a murder then the one using the coat hanger and the mother are both guilty of murder and subject to the death penalty if that is what the penalty is in our scenario.
Exod 21:22-25
22 If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.
23 And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life,
24 Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,
25 Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe. (KJV)
In this scenario, the mother was not guilty because she did not consent to the action that caused the death or maiming of her child, but the lad who caused it is in deep trouble.
In the scenario given in this thread, the woman consents to the killing of her child in the womb then she is as culpable as the one who did the deed for she present the child to him/her to be killed and then is as qguilty and comes under same punishment guidelines as the who that performed the abortion.
That is logic, not hate, emotion or anything else just a response to the scenario given. I would that no one would ever kill their child and then there would be no scenario to discuss.
When an act in the OT was a capital crime then no one was to pity the guilty person.
2347 chuwc (khoos); a primitive root; properly, to cover, i.e. (figuratively) to compassionate:
KJV-- pity, regard, spare.
I did not write the Book. Depending on the situtation, I might personally want to pity the criminal, but even so I am commanded not to do so. The best I could do would to be to give the person a 30 day stay of execution with an evangelist in hopes that they might get saved.
God will always be ready to pardon that person, but for the sake of the society and I believe that person there was no such thing as life imprisonment. Most things were handled on the spot. A thief would be required to work and pay back the debt. Other things were handled tht way as well as best as I can see it. The Romans had jails and Christ speaks of not coming out until the last farthing was paid, but that was Roman law, not Hebrew law. I have a born-again Jew that is a missionary to the Jews that I will ask about that to get more clarification as to the Hebrew "prison" system.
I would that all folks would live so that there would be no need for prisons or death penalities. Yet, we both know that they do not and so we have to do what we can to protect the community from those that would do it harm.
Again, I did not create the scenario in this poll. I am only answering it and what I said is the logical conclusion of the issue. This is the way things would be if the scenario existed if it was going to be done as stated.
Exod 21:22-25
22 If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.
23 And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life,
24 Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,
25 Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe. (KJV)
In this scenario, the mother was not guilty because she did not consent to the action that caused the death or maiming of her child, but the lad who caused it is in deep trouble.
In the scenario given in this thread, the woman consents to the killing of her child in the womb then she is as culpable as the one who did the deed for she present the child to him/her to be killed and then is as qguilty and comes under same punishment guidelines as the who that performed the abortion.
That is logic, not hate, emotion or anything else just a response to the scenario given. I would that no one would ever kill their child and then there would be no scenario to discuss.
When an act in the OT was a capital crime then no one was to pity the guilty person.
2347 chuwc (khoos); a primitive root; properly, to cover, i.e. (figuratively) to compassionate:
KJV-- pity, regard, spare.
I did not write the Book. Depending on the situtation, I might personally want to pity the criminal, but even so I am commanded not to do so. The best I could do would to be to give the person a 30 day stay of execution with an evangelist in hopes that they might get saved.
God will always be ready to pardon that person, but for the sake of the society and I believe that person there was no such thing as life imprisonment. Most things were handled on the spot. A thief would be required to work and pay back the debt. Other things were handled tht way as well as best as I can see it. The Romans had jails and Christ speaks of not coming out until the last farthing was paid, but that was Roman law, not Hebrew law. I have a born-again Jew that is a missionary to the Jews that I will ask about that to get more clarification as to the Hebrew "prison" system.
I would that all folks would live so that there would be no need for prisons or death penalities. Yet, we both know that they do not and so we have to do what we can to protect the community from those that would do it harm.
Again, I did not create the scenario in this poll. I am only answering it and what I said is the logical conclusion of the issue. This is the way things would be if the scenario existed if it was going to be done as stated.
Oh No Mr. Maverick! You are not getting off the hook that quick!
You quoted:
You can quote scripture all day and all night. You can use it to twist it and turn it to be for whatever issue you want. But don't forget the scripture where Jesus tells them if they are without sin to cast the first stone!
I am not saying Abortion is right....but murder is wrong anyway you use it. You use scripture to give punishment by death. Why don't you use it to forgive! You are a hypocrite! You don't even know what you are talking about.
Jesus was about love. Love your neighbor. Forgiveness for all our sins.
Paul was a murder. Jesus met him on a road, and his life was changed forever. He was forgiven!
A Thief and a Murder were on the cross next to Jesus. All they had to do was believe on Him.
You may have a scenario Mr. Maverick...but you can change the scenario too!
Go ahead Mr. Maverick.....throw that stone!
Sherrie
You quoted:
I am sorry but you also told me:
Why would this be if the scenario existed?
I am sorry but giving up the child wasn't the issue either. I stand by my last post Mr. Maverick.
You can quote scripture all day and all night. You can use it to twist it and turn it to be for whatever issue you want. But don't forget the scripture where Jesus tells them if they are without sin to cast the first stone!
I am not saying Abortion is right....but murder is wrong anyway you use it. You use scripture to give punishment by death. Why don't you use it to forgive! You are a hypocrite! You don't even know what you are talking about.
Jesus was about love. Love your neighbor. Forgiveness for all our sins.
Paul was a murder. Jesus met him on a road, and his life was changed forever. He was forgiven!
A Thief and a Murder were on the cross next to Jesus. All they had to do was believe on Him.
You may have a scenario Mr. Maverick...but you can change the scenario too!
Go ahead Mr. Maverick.....throw that stone!
Sherrie
Maverick
Member
Yes, there is forgiveness. Romans 13 also still gives the government the sword to punish evil doers. Hence, there is still a death penalty. In church life there is a sin that carries the death penalty and we are not told to pray for it so there is no forgiveness. 1 John 5:16,17
Paul also instructed the Corinthian church to turn some folks out of the church and over to the devil so that their body might be destroyed, but that their soul would be saved. That is in Corinthians, but the exact address does not come to mind. Sounds a bit like a death penalty to me.
Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is unforgiveable.
We are also talking about judicial issues not personal issues. The father of the aborted child may forgive the mother, but the courts are another story. The parents of a murdered child like the Van Damm girl may forgive the murderer, but the courts will not and he will die or be spend the rest of his life in jail.
IF a woman knew that she would die if she aborted a child do you not think it would be easier for her to carry the baby to term than to risk execution. The scenario suggests that the woman does not want the child and there would not be the emotions of giving it up as there would be for a woman who because of age, infirmary or economics is compelled to give up a child she wants.
Frankly, I do not understand your ire.
In our current society, many women are duped by Planned Parenthood into thinking it is not a child and because of such deception PP is the more heinous culprit than some of the mothers. Some of these ladies get saved and have great grief over what they have done and they need love, consolation and compassion. Others know they are killing a child and do not flippin' care because it will ruin their lifestyle or figure. Those women are murderers in heart, if not legally.
Paul also instructed the Corinthian church to turn some folks out of the church and over to the devil so that their body might be destroyed, but that their soul would be saved. That is in Corinthians, but the exact address does not come to mind. Sounds a bit like a death penalty to me.
Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is unforgiveable.
We are also talking about judicial issues not personal issues. The father of the aborted child may forgive the mother, but the courts are another story. The parents of a murdered child like the Van Damm girl may forgive the murderer, but the courts will not and he will die or be spend the rest of his life in jail.
IF a woman knew that she would die if she aborted a child do you not think it would be easier for her to carry the baby to term than to risk execution. The scenario suggests that the woman does not want the child and there would not be the emotions of giving it up as there would be for a woman who because of age, infirmary or economics is compelled to give up a child she wants.
Frankly, I do not understand your ire.
In our current society, many women are duped by Planned Parenthood into thinking it is not a child and because of such deception PP is the more heinous culprit than some of the mothers. Some of these ladies get saved and have great grief over what they have done and they need love, consolation and compassion. Others know they are killing a child and do not flippin' care because it will ruin their lifestyle or figure. Those women are murderers in heart, if not legally.
fromtheright
<img src =/2844.JPG>
But here you're wrong, Maverick. As I pointed out and as you confirmed, in most states pre-Roe, the law of the land was that abortion was not a capital offense. Hence the fallacy of the poll and the misstatement in your post.
Hey, I gotta say, SHerrie and I think pretty much exactly alike on this issue. I agree with her 100%.
BTW - The notion that Roe v Wade legalized abortion is a common fallacy. Overturning Roe v Wade will not make abortion illegal. However, it will give each state the power to determine its own abortion statutes, something I happen to agree with.
BTW - The notion that Roe v Wade legalized abortion is a common fallacy. Overturning Roe v Wade will not make abortion illegal. However, it will give each state the power to determine its own abortion statutes, something I happen to agree with.
fromtheright
<img src =/2844.JPG>
Johnv,
I agree with you. I don't think the Human Life Amendment is the way to go (though I certainly sympathize with the motive), I think that it legitimizes the Supreme Court's usurpation of states' prerogative re criminal statutes. It was a state power to begin with and should go back to the states to decide.
I agree with you. I don't think the Human Life Amendment is the way to go (though I certainly sympathize with the motive), I think that it legitimizes the Supreme Court's usurpation of states' prerogative re criminal statutes. It was a state power to begin with and should go back to the states to decide.