Is Acts 17:30 only the elect or the entire human race?

[HankD]

Hank, you can't see that Acts 17 supports a Reformed position. Your quotes argue against your own viewpoint, but you cannot fathom how that can possibly be.
Instead of forcing your opinion on the text, step back and let the text speak for itself. If you do, I believe you will see where you take your left turn.

And I believe you are wrong. I have no left or right.

Proverbs 4:27 Turn not to the right hand nor to the left: remove thy foot from evil.

Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

HankD

 

[MennoSota]

And I believe you are wrong. I have no left or right.

Proverbs 4:27 Turn not to the right hand nor to the left: remove thy foot from evil.

Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

HankD

Why do you quote those verses? It seems you're just avoiding reading the Bible and letting it speak for itself.

 

[Reformed]

TCassidy is correct, Calvinists are not monolithic. Like any other group, they come in all flavors. I'm more of a Confessional "Reformed" Baptist. I'm about as close as you can come to being a Reformed Presbyterian while remaining distinctively Baptist. I do believe God ordains all things that come to pass without violating the conscience of the creature. The only thing God does not bring to pass is sin (James 1:13), although He allows it for His purpose. When I encounter a militant anti-Calvinist, I commend them to God and move on. I wasn't always like that. I would stay and argue until I was blue in the face, but it accomplished little. I am always game for scholarly debate, but I've grown weary of the Internet theologians who can't debate their way out of a wet paper bag while carrying a set of scissors.

 

[MennoSota]

TCassidy is correct, Calvinists are not monolithic. Like any other group, they come in all flavors. I'm more of a Confessional "Reformed" Baptist. I'm about as close as you can come to being a Reformed Presbyterian while remaining distinctively Baptist. I do believe God ordains all things that come to pass without violating the conscience of the creature. The only thing God does not bring to pass is sin (James 1:13), although He allows it for His purpose. When I encounter a militant anti-Calvinist, I commend them to God and move on. I wasn't always like that. I would stay and argue until I was blue in the face, but it accomplished little. I am always game for scholarly debate, but I've grown weary of the Internet theologians who can't debate their way out of a wet paper bag while carrying a set of scissors.

Must be plastic scissors. [emoji41]

 

[PrmtvBptst1832]

TCassidy is correct, Calvinists are not monolithic. Like any other group, they come in all flavors. I'm more of a Confessional "Reformed" Baptist. I'm about as close as you can come to being a Reformed Presbyterian while remaining distinctively Baptist. I do believe God ordains all things that come to pass without violating the conscience of the creature. The only thing God does not bring to pass is sin (James 1:13), although He allows it for His purpose. When I encounter a militant anti-Calvinist, I commend them to God and move on. I wasn't always like that. I would stay and argue until I was blue in the face, but it accomplished little. I am always game for scholarly debate, but I've grown weary of the Internet theologians who can't debate their way out of a wet paper bag while carrying a set of scissors.

God certainly does bring sin to pass, though he is not the efficient cause. If sin were contrary to the decrees of God, it would not exist.

For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done. -Ac. 4.27, 28

 

[ICHTHUS]

God certainly does bring sin to pass, though he is not the efficient cause. If sin were contrary to the decrees of God, it would not exist.

For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done. -Ac. 4.27, 28

And your Bible justification for such an outrageous remark? Makes no difference what terms you use, IF, as you do, say that "God certainly does bring sin to pass", then you make God the AUTHOR of sin! How else can he "bring sin to pass", if He were not directly involved in its been done? You will NEVER find a single Bible verse to back up what you say, and that is because it is NOT in the Bible. I challenge you to produce ONE text.

 

[ICHTHUS]

God certainly does bring sin to pass, though he is not the efficient cause. If sin were contrary to the decrees of God, it would not exist.

For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done. -Ac. 4.27, 28

This verse does NOT mean that God CAUSED Judas to betray Jesus Christ, for this would make God the AUTHOR of this betrayal, and then Judas could not be the guilty party. God did USE what Judas of his OWN FREE WILL had determined to do to Jesus, with the Jewish and Roman authorities. We must be very careful not to make God out to be the AUTHOR or CAUSER of ANY sinful acts.

 

[ICHTHUS]

Calvinists do NOT make God the author of sin, as we hold to God having a determined and Premissive Will!

Explain the DECREES OF GOD. Has or has not God DECREED ALL THINGS THAT COME TO PASS?

 

[ICHTHUS]

Why do you quote those verses? It seems you're just avoiding reading the Bible and letting it speak for itself.

As you are avoiding the ACTUAL meaning of the passage in Acts 17!

 

[PrmtvBptst1832]

And your Bible justification for such an outrageous remark? Makes no difference what terms you use, IF, as you do, say that "God certainly does bring sin to pass", then you make God the AUTHOR of sin! How else can he "bring sin to pass", if He were not directly involved in its been done? You will NEVER find a single Bible verse to back up what you say, and that is because it is NOT in the Bible. I challenge you to produce ONE text.

Ac. 4.27, 28 very clearly teaches that God brings sin to pass through sinful men. The text no where indicates that it was the free will of any man that crucified the Lord of glory. Could Herod, Pontius Pilate, the Gentiles, and the people of Israel have acted otherwise? Where would that leave us today?

Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: -Ac. 2.23

Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: -Isa. 46.9, 10

 

[ICHTHUS]

Ac. 4.27, 28 very clearly teaches that God brings sin to pass through sinful men. The text no where indicates that it was the free will of any man that crucified the Lord of glory. Could Herod, Pontius Pilate, the Gentiles, and the people of Israel have acted otherwise? Where would that leave us today?

Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: -Ac. 2.23

Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: -Isa. 46.9, 10

There is a BIG difference between God ALLOWING something to take place, and DOING something. Are you saying that God CAUSED Judas to betray Jesus? This would make Him the AUTHOR of Judas' actions. Because God KNOWS all things, does NOT mean that He CAUSES all things. There are things that God DOES, and others that He PERMITS. God in His foreknowledge SAW the evil actions of Herod, Pilate, Judas, etc, against Jesus, and USED these for the purpose of His WILL. Otherwise there is the problem that God actually MAKING these do evil against Jesus, and then also punish them for doing something that He instigated?

A good example can be found in the account of king Ahab:

"Then Micaiah said, “Therefore hear the word of the Lord: I saw the Lord sitting on His throne, and all the host of heaven standing by, on His right hand and on His left. And the Lord said, ‘Who will persuade Ahab to go up, that he may fall at Ramoth Gilead?’ So one spoke in this manner, and another spoke in that manner. Then a spirit came forward and stood before the Lord, and said, ‘I will persuade him.’ The Lord said to him, ‘In what way?’ So he said, ‘I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’ And the Lord said, ‘You shall persuade him, and also prevail. Go out and do so.’ Therefore look! The Lord has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these prophets of yours, and the Lord has declared disaster against you.” (1 Kings 22:19-23)

Here we read of a spirit that came before the Lord as said that he would be a lying spirit in the mouths of these prophets, who would give false instructions "in the Lord's Name" to go to war and die, so that the purposes of God might be accomplished. Because the Lord ALLOWED this to take place, He did not DO it Himself, as the spirit did it, it could be said, "The Lord has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these prophets of yours". It is IMPOSSIBLE for God to CAUSE any person to lie, and therefore sin, but PERMIT this to take place as He does use evil deeds to accomplish His ultimate purposes.

 

[Eliyahu]

So, the people who have not been predestined to be saved by God may not repent, right ?
Or, God just told the people to repent, even if He predestined the Unbelievers not to repent and not to be saved?
Is this what Calvinists interpret about this verse?


Eliyahu

 

[SovereignGrace]

Greetings in the Mighty Name of Jesus! Thanks for taking the time to share your views.

Firstly, I don't know what you mean by "Calvinist witch-hunting"? In case you forgot, this forum is on the Calvinistic issue, which means this is discussed here.

Secondly, my best Christian friend of over 33 years is a 5 point Calvinist, and I have Facebook friends who are also 5 point Calvinists, so you are way off by your unfounded remark!

Thirdly, In my 35 years as a believer, I have found that those who are more interested in defending what MAN says, rather than what GOD says in His Word, have been the Calvinist. Even after they have been shown conclusively from the Word, that "Limited Atonement" is NOT taught in the Bible, and that Calvin himself did NOT believe this, they will disregard this and continue to argue their position.

Fourthly, I am very much angered that the position of Calvinism on the Atonement, has done very much damage to the Christian Faith of Jesus Christ, and put MANY off Christianity, because they consider that their position is right, regardless of FACTS from the Bible.

Fifthly, I have seen from remarks on this very forum, that it is the Calvinist who will attack others who do not go along with their unbiblical nonsense, because they are so deluded that what they hold to is what the Bible Teaches.

Sixth, I believe very strongly that the position of Calvinism on the Atonement, which is central to the Christian Faith, is abhorrent to the Lord, as it reduces His Great work for the sinful human race, whereby ALL can come to Jesus Christ for forgiveness of sins and attaining eternal life. How DARE they LIMIT the finished work of Jesus on the cross?

Seventh, I, like the Lord, VERY MUCH love the lost, and greatly desire that ALL are saved and spend eternity with the Lord Jesus, as NO person should go to hell.

I hope this clears my position

May the Lord grant us understanding

Thank you for your reply. Now...

Of the 800,000,000 C.I. Scofield stated and the 1.3 BILLION the Gideon speaker said in India ALONE have not heard about Jesus Christ, if they died without ever hearing about Him, what comes of them in the day of Judgment?

 

[HankD]

Why do you quote those verses? It seems you're just avoiding reading the Bible and letting it speak for itself.

OK M,

I thought that was what I was doing, let the onlooking readers decide.

Anyway - No problem personally.

HankD

 

[ICHTHUS]

OK M,

I thought that was what I was doing, let the onlooking readers decide.

Anyway - No problem personally.

HankD

Hank, you are not "avoiding" reading the Bible at all. I have noted that when these guys cannot deal with an argument, or know they are wrong, they will try to side-track us with pointless comments.

 

[MennoSota]

OK M,

I thought that was what I was doing, let the onlooking readers decide.

Anyway - No problem personally.

HankD

What did the verses mean? How did they apply? I observe the verses and then I look at context to try determine what the author is saying.
You used verses and then made declarations that don't seem to fit with the text. I would like clarification.

As to ichthus comment, he avoids the context of a passage as though it were a plague. Perhaps he should self-evaluation before he speaks of others.

 

[HankD]

Hank, you are not "avoiding" reading the Bible at all. I have noted that when these guys cannot deal with an argument, or know they are wrong, they will try to side-track us with pointless comments.

In this particular case I thought I was diligent in my determination of the meaning.
In fact, even a universal call down to the individual human being (as I am sure is the case in Acts 17:30) ought not to be a threat to calvinists, I even gave them the rebuttal.

HankD

 

[HankD]

What did the verses mean? How did they apply? I observe the verses and then I look at context to try determine what the author is saying.
You used verses and then made declarations that don't seem to fit with the text. I would like clarification.

As to ichthus comment, he avoids the context of a passage as though it were a plague. Perhaps he should self-evaluation before he speaks of others.

No offense M, but I am willing to give you the last word and let the reader decide.


HankD

 

[SovereignGrace]

Hank, you are not "avoiding" reading the Bible at all. I have noted that when these guys cannot deal with an argument, or know they are wrong, they will try to side-track us with pointless comments.

Of those 800,000,000 Scofield stated and 1.3 BILLION the Gideon stated never heard the gospel, what is their eternal state if they died never hearing the gospel or knew of Jesus' earthly existence?

Not pointless at all. You refuse to answer because you know 8t destroys you pointless stance.

Come on, answer it.

 

[HankD]

This discussion has turned ad hominem.

HankD