seems to be.
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Is anyone interested in "the baptism with the Holy Spirit"?
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Dave G
Well-Known Member
The Greek word προερέω, used in Matthew 24:45 for "before", is transliterated into English, "proereó", which means " I have before declared ".
https://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/mat24.pdf
Genesis 1:1 (KJV)
Since the NKJV translates the word similarly, then I have no trouble accepting it the way the KJV does.
What I have trouble accepting, is your rendition of it..."in the future", which is exactly the opposite of the many witnesses that state it otherwise.
Before / beforehand = Correct.
Dave G
Well-Known Member
Necessary evidences, not "conditions" that can be met by a person who is not born again.
Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? Have you? I hope....
1. We are not calling the Holy Ghost flesh
2. We are not calling the Holy Ghost ego
3. We are not calling the Holy Ghost a mindset
4. We are not calling the Holy Ghost melancholy
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. - Galatians 5:22-23
There is a genuine goodness that accompanies the gift of the Holy Spirit.
For all those things hath mine hand made, and all those things have been, saith the Lord: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word. - Isaiah 66:2
I spent a few years in my life in Michigan, in which I found to be a spiritual waste land. To find something for my spiritual man I would turn into the Detroit Michigan WMUZ radio where I would enjoy the Pentecostal ministries there. And through that association I would be introduced to RW Schambach where I still promote his message to this good day.
We have had a preacher out of Detroit move to these parts who also came out of that environment. I told him that the old timers could tell when you received the Holy Spirit. He agreed and said that his elders would tell their people, "You don't have it yet... Come back tomorrow night!"
The old timers would encourage the young people to go to revivals and pray at the altar night by night. When they would finally come through to the Holy Spirit everyone would know about it. These methods are talked about in the old GC Rankin stories about the 1800's Methodist revivals in the Southeast. This story is dear to me because I received the infilling of the Holy Spirit in like methods... - The Life of George Clark Rankin
And... I hope we are not calling the Holy Ghost a tongue! The Holy Ghost is a person who has the ability to comfort, lead, and to do good.
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
So, the word "with" does not "Teach" the googly heresies that you mentioned.
They have nothing still with regard to a preposition.
Inspiration does not always flow in the same set of tracks.
Anyone can take any word and claim a goofy, 'usage' of it.
The Bible Passages on a subject have to all be compared.
On the non-totally-heretical side, people still don't have a clue what the verses are saying and 'with' is not any issue, there.
'With' is a perfectly viable translation and does not Teach error or prevent the knowlegde of the Truth.
Something else does, on both ends of it.
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
In verse 4, Paul Taught them to believe on The Lord Jesus Christ.
They had not Received The Holy Spirit, because they had just been dipped in water and weren't Saved.
They were, then, properly baptized, After they Repented and Trusted in Paul's Message of Jesus, in verse 5.
They had to be baptized, Scripturally, After being Saved, Then, in water, because their previous Dipping was un-Scriptural, since they hadn't Trusted Jesus.
Verse 7: The Miraculous Instantaneous Gifts were Given to those the Bible Said they were and there have been none since they ceased, as The Bible Says, and all Pentecostal/ Charismatics know it.
Any masquerading of those Gifts that are Recorded in The Bible are made up inventions in the flesh and they all know it.
No big Bible Gifts.
The Holy Spirit has never baptized anything, even in The New Testament, and none of any of that extra-Biblical carnality is Taught in The Bible.
... nor any Miraculous Gifts Promised.
I believe "The Miraculous Instantaneous Gifts" ceased because folks went out of the Spirit into the flesh, and the old ego would not admit to the backslidden condition. The scripture still remains...
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. - Mark 16
Nothing there on cessationism. To get these gifts back in the church.. .
13 If I shut up heaven that there be no rain, or if I command the locusts to devour the land, or if I send pestilence among my people;
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land. - 2 chronicles 7
Will take humility and prayer.The Lord Jesus once said...
20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.
21 Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting. - MATTHEW 17
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
Mark 16:17 & 18 are Spoken, by Jesus, to those that were assembled that would be Endowed with those Gifts to Substantiate the Origin of their Message as being Divine.
Previously, in the Chapter, the 11 had had some issues with 'belief'.
They are Jesus' Disciples that aHe Called aside to Send Out.
Verses 15 & 16 are Spoken with regard to the lost souls they would be Ministering to.
The 'believe' in those verses had to do with Salvation, or none, in unbelief.
There is no relationship between the individuals who 'believe', in verses 15 & 16, and verse 14 and before where Jesus is Talking the 11 Disciples about their 'unbelief'.
In verses 17 & 18, Jesus is Speaking to those of His Disciples that 'believe'.
And who have been Helped with their 'unbelief'.
They were Saved.
Those in verses 15 & 16 would be lost.
The word 'believe' contained in the different Passages are talking to different people about different subjects.
Verses 15 & 16 regard people who become Saved and they are Promised nothing in relation to verse 17 & 18, which are Spoken to Jesus' Saved and, now, 'believing right' Disciples.
No Charismatic Movement is Taught there or anywhere else.
The Disciples did have the ability over unclean spirits. So did Paul and 70.
Where else are they Given?
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Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
The emphasis in the verse is on "what" John and Jesus would be baptizing "with".
Not, "what are you baptizing in, Jesus?"
The recipient is baptized "in", because that is what baptism means.
The preposition used is concerning what John and Jesus would be baptizing "with".
"with water"
"with The Holy Spirit"
"And with fire".
But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us. - 2 Corinthians 4:7
There is a danger, via the evils of cessationism....
"But we have this ego in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of our flesh, and not of our God."
There is a danger, via the evils of cessationism....
"But we have this ego in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of our flesh, and not of our God."
When we had a plating department in our facility I worked under a chemist. This chemist was very smart and very good at math. When he laid out equations he did so in very neat handwriting and there would be much activity as he turned the results of an analysis into an addition. I would take his calculations and put them in the form of visual basic functions and sub procedures.
Of all the years I worked with this man I had one opportunity to witness to him. I made my presentation while he was analyzing adhesion under a microscope in which you could hear the sounds... Scratch, scratch, scratch! Scratch scratch, scratch! After my presentation he just continued to look under the microscope as if ignored everything I said so I just continued in my work. Then... The scratch scratch, scratching stopped! And he speaks!
"You know what I think it is?" He says while continuing to look under the microscope... "I think it is arrogance!"
And then, without taking his eyes off the microscope, he continues his work... Scratch, scratch, scratch! Scratch scratch, scratch! I did not reply but went about my work. Inside I feared he was right. In many cases religion can inhabit too much personal ego.
I am currently studying the old South Eastern Methodist revivals...
The Life of David Sullins
The Life of George Clark Rankin
In my denomination, Pentecostal Holiness (PH), the revivals were like the Methodist before us, just subtract 100 years. The pH revivals in the 1950's were exactly like the Methodist in the 1850's.In studying the old Methodist Cripple Creek revival I find our Pentecostal Holiness church was structured exactly like their meetings. As the Methodist revivals dissipated around 1900 so ours did around 2000. I have traveled Wythe County up and down and the only soul that remembers the Cripple Creek revival was a gentleman in his 90's, and he gave me recollections of what his mother told him.
The apostle Paul says that just a little leaven leavens the whole lump. Just a little ego, and the whole lump is bad! When our evangelists were uneducated they were good as you would never know what they would pull out of the Word of God. Send them to Seminary, and they come out with an ego, and tend to be dry in their delivery.
If denominations could hold the spirit of revival I would be more of a fan. But in my experience, it all to easily becomes ego. And, I tell people all the time that the unction of God is not Ego, as a matter, as scripture says...
21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
29 That no flesh should glory in his presence. - 1 Corinthians 1
Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump? - 1 Corinthians 5:6
I would say that it is impossible to experience the fullness of God with an ego. The ego has got to be dispelled for the camel to go through the eye of the needle and get the beneficial things from the Spirit of God!
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
There isn't and wasn't anything to cease, if you are talking about where there were Gifts.
They were Given to those the Bible Said that they were and there was nothing begun, or initiated, or mentioned, or Promised to anyone else that could cease or not cease.
Those Given ceased.
No one has ever had them except those who were told and Given them, then.
There has been nothing started that could cease, or not cease, today.
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
Psychology.
Negative psychology.
Negative self-disappointing psychology, because you know that God Knows that you know you are wildly, rashly guessing.
So, that is a disappointment to you.
Just as finding anything that supports anything Pentecostal, in The Bible, will be a disappointment for you.
You may dream something, but it is not in there.
Not anymore than, "The Bible Teaches it, but your attitude stops it".
Not a valid way to pretend to invent false teachings.
Nothing of The Holy Spirit or God's Word in that, either.
The Apostles ask... Why could we not do it?
Christ answers... Because of your unbelief!
Unbelief negates the power of God!
And....
Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations. - Romans 14:1
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This thread will be closed sometime after 7 AM Pacific.
Rob Morley
New Member
Titus 3:4-7 shows that regeneration and the pouring out of the Holy Spirit (baptism with) is the same event.
4But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, 5he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,6whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
Also, with the exception of the process of the initial believers, if one looks at whenever the Holy Spirit was poured on persons in the New Testament, they were always filled with the Spirit, regenerated and indwelt by the Spirit.
The promise given in the Old Testament is of a new spirit and the Holy Spirit. Life in the Spirit is the New Covenant life. So, Jesus baptizes with the Spirit in order to regenerate us, indwell us and empower us and by that Spirit into one body, His Church. Thereafter, we are to keep ourselves in a state of being continually filled.
4But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, 5he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,6whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
Also, with the exception of the process of the initial believers, if one looks at whenever the Holy Spirit was poured on persons in the New Testament, they were always filled with the Spirit, regenerated and indwelt by the Spirit.
The promise given in the Old Testament is of a new spirit and the Holy Spirit. Life in the Spirit is the New Covenant life. So, Jesus baptizes with the Spirit in order to regenerate us, indwell us and empower us and by that Spirit into one body, His Church. Thereafter, we are to keep ourselves in a state of being continually filled.
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Rob Morley
New Member
In the New Testament, the term 'on' or 'upon' is only associated with the initial receiving and infilling of the promised Holy Spirit at salvation. This is the baptism with the Spirit who is poured on all believers and who then infills, regenerates, indwells and empowers each of them. Thereafter, the disciples are only ever seen to be filled again with the Holy Spirit, not baptized again with the Spirit. Similarly, having been saved when the Spirit was poured on us, we are instructed to be continually filled. See Titus 3:5-7, Ephesians 5:18
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It would be wise to consult the NT Scriptures and use them as evidence for your claims.
UPON is found in 7 NT verses re: the baptism with the Holy Spirit,
and in 3 of those verses, speaking in tongues is mentioned.
How many people do you know who spoke in tongues
whilst they were initially receiving the Spirit inside?
Answer: none
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