Is anything really accomplished by this forum or not?

Andre, at least you are consistent. Like I said, you are dealing with this more honestly than others. I believe you are honestly wrong, though.

Peace,

Andy

 

I don't see why we don't change the forum to just "Soteriology" and let it cover all aspects... not just C/A debate.

 

King James says:

Dead men still choose. Lazarus could have chose to stay in the grave.

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What has a dead man ever decided?

Do you think you will still make decisions when you are dead?

 

A dead man can not "harden his heart".

 

TexasSky wins!

 

Hello Andy T:

Appreciate your words. I am interested in your (and others') opinion on a matter of interpretation. Consider Ephesians 2:8-9 which I assume is one of the texts used to support a "salvation exclusively by grace" position:

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast."

How do I know that Paul is speaking very literally here? How do I know that he is not taking "liberties" with precision? You may respond that the only reasonable way to take a text on doctrine (such as this one) is to look at it like a lawyer would. How do we know that Paul was not intending to speak with the same intent as might be involved in the following statement:

"It was through the efforts of the doctors and the effects of medical technology that my illness was cured"

In our N. American culture, we do not necessarily expect people to articulate all sorts of caveats and qualification when they make statements like the above. It is almost certain that the patient played some role in his own recovery (e.g. optimstic outlook, compliance with treatment directives, etc.) These things are implicitly understood when a statement like the above is made. We certainly don't expect a person to make a statment like:

"It was though the efforts of the doctors and the effects of medical technology, as complemented in small part by my positive attitude and willingness to undergo therapy, that my illness was cured"

How do we know something similar is not going on with Paul?

I understand you might object that this is a "bad analogy" in the same way that the drowning man is a bad analogy. I do not deny that the analogy may be bad specifically because it is stated elsewhere in the scriptures that the "patient is dead / unconscious and therefore cannot participate in his salvation". I understand this - the issue of whether we are "dead" in our sins is a related, but different, question.

I am trying to isolate a matter of "mode of interpretation". How do we know that Paul is writing with the intent of being understood as making a "technically exhaustive and precise" claim in respect to salvation grace, and not a merely "substantive" claim.

 

Oh, is that all it is - that they just came to different conclusions? Meanwhile, one concluder gets to spend eternity in heaven, while the other concluder spends eternity in hell. Wouldn't you say that the unbeliever made an unwise decision? </font>[/QUOTE]Unwise?...yes. Free to make that decision?...yes. "Worked" less than the one making the wise decision?...no.

 

Andre, I don't want it both ways. The greek word in Ephesians 2:9, "ergon" refers working to keep the law, not having faith. If faith is a work, it would be self defeating. We can agree to disagree. You can take the act of accepting a gift all the way down to muscle fibers "working" to reach out, neurons firing in our brains, our eyes "working" to focus on the gift, etc. I know from everyday life, common sense, and the Bible what it takes to earn a gift, and I don't think the Bible is supposed to be some huge riddle to unwind. God used the phrase of His grace being a gift, KNOWING what we understand a gift to be. God also did this KNOWING how man feels about earning a gift: we don't earn it. He even says it's FREE. How do you earn something free? You can't. It's like air. I don't have to earn it, it's there for the taking if I want it. If I don't want it, I hold my breath and die.

 

72% believe this forum is a viable source of learning, yet it appears that hardly anyone changes their views. Why the discrepancy, 72% favorable rating compared to 00% not changing? Maybe because those who learn and change their views lack the courage to acknowledge they were wrong.

 

Is there only one kind of faith described in the Bible?

is there only one kind of love described in the Bible?

I believe the faith we have which God accounts as righteousness is a gift of God, or out from God; that the righteousness we are imputed is that of God in Christ and further that faith is which has made us to stand in our hope of eternal life is the faith of Christ, that is out from, or having its' source in Christ's eternal faithfulness.

Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him for righteousness, what did Abraham believe? Only that he would have an hier?

Abraham received the promises, and received Isaac from the grave, in a like figure, he saw longed to see the day of Christ and saw it and rejoiced.

Then, there is a faith that works, this is not our saving faith, lest we make our eternal hope on works, James tells us Abraham was justified by his works; James is speaking of that faith we manifest by our works; while Paul speaks of that faith we receive which is the faith of Christ.

One is quickening faith because it has the life of Christ in it, the other is the living out that quickening, giving peace with God, to ourselves and acknowledging to the church that we are children of God.

The second does not justify us in the sight of God, if we make it so, then we make the apostles, Paul and James, to be out of fellowship and we have our first dilemma, a much worse one than what could be had with the debates over soteriology.

Bro. Dallas

 

If not for the irristable Grace of God, he could have decided to come out all the day long, and could not have, why? Because he came out still bound in his grave clothes, hand and foot, and with the veil over his face, the command to loose him and let him go did not come until Jesus said loose him and let him go.

Joh 11:44 (KJV) And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go.

Make a decisional regeneration out of that, and I would agree that this is perhaps a hopeless discussion in some places.

Bro. Dallas

 

Hello Texas Sky:

As I have argued previously in this thread, I do think that "acceptance" meets a reasonable definition of what work consists of. The key point is that mental deliberation goes on as to whether to accept the gift or not. Since we agree that the "right" decision is to accept the gift, we cannot help but conclude that some "merit" should be credited to a person who makes the "right" decision.

While you may have done nothing to earn the gift in an of itself, you do engage in a deliberation process as a necessary antecedent to accepting (or rejecting) the gift. Since there is a "right" decision here, how can it be that an "I accept" response does not indicate "wise" or "competent" or "meritorious" choice?

 

Positive merit is earned as a result of a positive action. You see you were saved because you decided to receive Christ. Many decisions are very difficult to make and takes a great deal of effort. To be honest, I aways wonder why the word "decision" is ever used because the "choices" are simply life or death. What would I think if a person says, "geez, I don't know what to decide. Eternal life sounds nice, but, like, this eternal damnation thing looks promising." No one says or thinks this. They are dead in sin and the things of the Spirit are a mystery to them. We can teach them the things of the Spirit, lead them to mentally accept the things of the Spirit, but for them to completely trust the things of the Spirit they must be born of the Spirit.

(Joh 3:6 ESV) That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

 

If recievin is a work then EVERY calvinist has done some type of work towards thier salvation. And every man. There is no end to this silly redefining of words. Everything is a work. What does the scritputes say a work is? It is something that you feel you have done to merit salvation. Again if cavlniist cannot come to grip with terms or words they will remain their own little religeon.

 

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This certainly doesn't sound like Lazarus had a choice:


John 11:43
And when He thus had spoken He cried with a loud voice, "Lazarus, COME FORTH."


Can you show where he could have refused Jesus' command?

 

Timtoolman,

You posted this to me;

KJB, I think that "free-willers" like myself are referring to choice of salvation. At least for me I agree with your def. of free will witch would make it impossoiable for man to have free will.

I would like to remind you that it is written in Holy Scripture that John the Baptist was filled with the Holy Spirit before his birth.

Now I will ask you was John sent from God or men?

Was he filled with the Holy Spirit because of the will of God......or was it from the will of angels, parents, demons, or his own will while he was a fetus?

Of course we both will say he received the Holy Spirit because God decided to bless him with it! It had nothing to do with John's will.

It is written that he recieved it before he was born. He was FILLED with it!

If I was walking down the road and you punched me in the nose without me asking for it....do I still receive a punch in the nose?

Now I ask you, is John the Baptist saved or not?


You posted this,

The way I look at it is that man can think or believe any way he wants, rather He gets to act it out or not is up to God. You say that is not free will, ;perhaps but I am saying free will is willing whatever you want altho0ugh you may not get it. NO one is programming you or telling you what you must think or do.

That may be the way you look at it....but how do you know?

How can you prove that there are no hidden supernatural powers affecting your mind, your thoughts, your heart?

Are you able to see ALL visible and invisible things everywhere like God can see them?

The only way a human being could know if he had free-will or not is if SOMEONE who knows all things revealed it him.

We have the Word of God as truth.

The Word of God declares without apology that there are many factors and forces at work on minds.

The Word of God shows that ALL un-believers without exception are held in blindness by Satan.

A Muslim for example is held in blindness even though the Muslim thinks he is not blind to anything at all!

Ask the Muslim about his destiny and he will most certainly tell you he is on the road to heaven with God.

It is written in Proverbs 21:1

The king's heart is like a stream of water directed by the LORD; he turns it wherever he pleases.

Jesus said;

With my authority, take this message of repentance to all the nations, beginning in Jerusalem: `There is forgiveness of sins for all who turn to me.'

This is true! This is the gospel message in a nutshell!

Just because there is a universal call for people to repent and turn to Jesus Christ does not imply they are able!

Think about it! My boss at work does not have free-choice.....he is bound in stern hatred of Jesus Christ and all He stands for .....He CANNOT freely choose to love Him.

Ask him to freely choose to repent and come to Christ Jesus and you will find he is not free to choose......he is BOUND to one choice as if he was locked in chains and irons!

Are you and I free to choose? Even in our minds?

I am not....ask me to freely-choose to hate Jesus Christ and I CAN'T do it!

I cannot freely choose anything other than what I am bound to choose, and this is in my mind and heart.

Then he said, "When I was with you before, I told you that everything written about me by Moses and the prophets and in the Psalms must all come true." Then he opened their minds to understand these many Scriptures .

Yes He can open minds!

Then Jesus prayed this prayer: "O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, thank you for hiding the truth from those who think themselves so wise and clever, and for revealing it to the childlike. Yes, Father, it pleased you to do it this way!

"My Father has given me authority over everything. No one really knows the Son except the Father, and no one really knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him."

He can hide or reveal things to whom He chooses.

For false messiahs and false prophets will rise up and perform great miraculous signs and wonders so as to deceive, if possible, even God's chosen ones .

They worshiped together at the Temple each day, met in homes for the Lord's Supper, and shared their meals with great joy and generosity--all the while praising God and enjoying the goodwill of all the people. And each day the Lord added to their group those who were being saved.

Timtoolman,

There are many people that are unaware of how they came to Jesus Christ. People do not know all things!

I can provide much Scripture showing that people make choices.....

I can show much Scripture showing that if people have come in a humble fashion to Jesus Christ....it is the work of God upon them that did it all!

He will not accept the proud and arrogant.......every knee will bow down and every mouth will confess.

I must become less and less while He must become more and more!

I am so sorry this post is too long...I ramble too much.

God bless you Timtoolman! KJB