Is anything really accomplished by this forum or not?

I use the "out of context" statement, not to defend anything, but because it is out of context.

Believe me, I have given plenty of thought to calvinism and what "the truth" is. With so many great pastors and teachers that believe it, I had to. In the end, it doesn't sit right in my spirit, and from talking to those who used to be calvinists and are no longer, I can see why I feel this way. I think it's sad there are so many great pastors and teachers that believe in a false doctrine based on their human intellect. It also throws up red flags that NOONE is saved as a calvinist, and only becomes one from studying the work of reformers. </font>[/QUOTE]Webdog,

Well I'm one who didn't become a Calvinist because of studying the work of the Reformers. I became a Calvinist after studying Southern Baptist History!

Imagine that.

 

Amen. Well said.

 

Results: Is anything really accomplished by this forum or not? (38 votes.)

Yes (For whatever reason) 26
No (For whatever reason) 12

If you were in charge of the world, would you close this whole C/A forum?

Yes, I would close the forum. 9
No, I would keep it open. 29

 

If this were true, Christ would not have died, and we would need no faith in Him. If nothing is required...and I mean NOTHING...not even faith would be required, nor God sending His Son. It would have all been taken care of. A gift is a gift. I will argue til I'm blue in the face that receiving a gift does not mean I earned it in any way, meaning I worked for it. Faith cannot be a work, or Ephesians 2:8,9 would make no sense and would be untrue.

Rationalyzing a decision in your head can only be a work, if the result is something you earned. Case in point the list of 6 things listed by Dale. Those are careers where thinking results in pay. By definition, this is work. Me sitting in a recliner thinking about what movie I want to watch is not a work. If I'm a movie critic, it would be. </font>[/QUOTE]You are so right Webdog! Noone and I mean noone would use recieving a gift as a work except calvinist. Try it out on any other religeon, cult or even unsaved. See the smirks or laughter when you tell them " yeah but it is a work, you have to do something". If the calvinist stick by tnhis def . of no work then I can find sometype of work they have done for their salvation, rather it be reading the word, eating, breathing, walking an ailse or just getting up everyday. It is absurd
! And I will never waver on that either. The good news is when they mock themselves with such sillness it helps keep people from taking them serious. Thus calvnist is a small protion of christiandom.

 

Webdog, Timtoolman,

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves : it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man , but of God.

Proverbs 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.

The premise you both start from is always faulty in the first place......

Why?

Because the MIND and HEART of men are tainted and corrupt from sin......do you guys understand that yet?

The human heart is bound in futility and corruption.

When it is written;

There is none that doeth good, no, not one...........this is speaking not only of OUTWARD physical acts of sin......it is speaking of WHERE it came from as well.

The human heart!

If you both don't hear the words of Jesus Christ ringing loud and clear in you souls, I don't know what to tell you.

You have heard you shall not murder.....but I tell you.....

You have heard it said not to commit adultery....but I tell you.....

You have heard........

Jesus was making it PERFECTLY clear that it is not only the outward things that people do that are sinful......it is the HUMAN heart!

It is diseased....corrupt....full of evil....FILTHY!

The thing you both seem to keep appointing to yourselves is that your hearts are good....your minds are good.....your wills are in the right place....and that is HOW you choose to be saved.

I can assure you that you are making a "Christ" out of your "faith" or your own "hearts".

The HEARTS of men are wicked and tainted from the effects of sin.

It is perfectly clear that neither of you have been convicted of sin!

You save yourselves before you have ever been lost!

One wrong thought...one idle word.....one lie....one wrong motive is enough to earn and MERIT all of God's fury!

That is what EVERYBODY deserves! So if we are sent to Hell in a handbasket we are being paid in full.

Show me the "free-will" that these people have;

"Satan, the god of this evil world, has blinded the minds of those who don't believe, so they are unable to see the glorious light of the Good News that is shining upon them. They don't understand the message about the glory of Christ, who is the exact likeness of God" (2Corinthians 4:4).

It shows nothing of free-will! It shows that UN-believers are UNABLE to see!

Why? Because they have no free-will! They are bound by Satan in blindness.

It takes an act of God to open their eyes!

You can keep on preaching about the free-will you think you have in your minds and hearts.

But Scripture proclaims;

Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. Romans 8:7

It is crystal clear!

Even mans minds are against God....how do you figure that is free?

May God bless you both! Regards, KJB

 

Sister Diane,
I knew you were a Calvinist

Bro. Dallas

 

Is anything really accomplished by this forum or not?

Diane, it is my observation that this forum has led to you studying the subject and the scriptures more!

I wish I had more folks like you in my church who were not afraid to study.

 

Only a calvinist could twist my words to say what you did, and be confused by a simple statement. You know exactly what I meant. When every calvinist was saved they immediately thought at that moment they must have been one of the "elect" as calvinists believe and embraced TULIP wholeheartedly without studying it. I do not believe anyone is saved in this manner, and I would believe they are untruthful if they suggest otherwise.

 

I have a tough time believing that believing is a work too. We are told to believe RATHER than do any kind of works.

Romans 4:3-5
3 For what does the scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."
4 Now to the one who works, his pay is not credited due to grace but due to obligation.
5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous, his faith is credited as righteousness.

Does NOT work, BUT believes!

In complete fairness, however, and representing why this larger debate still rages, we also see a seemingly contradictory statement in John that claims that believing is a required "work", deed, whatever you want to call it (KJV uses the word "work" here).

John 6:28-29
28 So then they said to him, "What must we do to accomplish the deeds God requires?"
29 Jesus replied, "This is the deed God requires to believe in the one whom he sent."


So here we have paraphrased:

Romans: Believing is not working
John: Believing is working

Sigh...

 

No one said believing (faith) was a work, it is a gift. It is choosing that is a work.

Joh 15:16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you.

Of course, this has been said over and over again.

 

In regards to the question of this post, this forum is generally operated as a free for all discussion rather than a debate.

Any thread at any time, regardless of original topic, may digress into defense or promulgation of any doctrine.

This, imho, is the greatest difficulty facing those who visit here.

I would not suggest ending general discussion. But I would propose threads (especially since our pages here have no seeming limit) related to specific topics be held strictly to that topic. For example, a thread on Election would include examples of posters scripturally defending or refuting that teaching only, and in this way each of the five points may be discussed intelligently.

Topics that may be corollary to one of these, but not directly related ought to be moved to another thread.

An example of this, imho, would be whether an arminian loves the souls of men more than a calvinist...etc. These are not helpful, imho, in presenting the case to either side, these only gender more strife and contention, imho and should be dealt with separately. I believe, as the teachings of each respective faith and practice is presenting under its respective heads, then a greater understanding would perhaps be accomplished without the backbiting and so forth.

I have observed this is not just a C/A board but includes believers of different stripes even than the two of these. So, this then renders the presentation, defense, refutation of C/A impossible because so many views are presented from each side and each side lining up and throwing darts at the other.

I am only a co-moderator on this board and I am only making a suggestion that I think would perhaps increase the learning possible through this interaction.

What are some of your thoughts?

May God Bless,
Bro. Dallas

 

Bro. Dallas,

I too would like to see more structure and more strict moderating.

Again let me re-emphasize my preference to debate and discuss only with Baptists on this subject.

NonBaptists bring too much nonscriptural doctrine to the table to ever facilitate meaningful dialogue.

 

Dear Brother,
I would agree. Perhaps there could be room for non-Baptists to voice their belief, and any who would engage with them whether they be Arminian Baptist or Calvinistic Baptists, this could be accomplished in the same manner as above.

I have started a poll to identify the different groups based on soteriology, not denominational affiliation.

Unfortunately, I am of the strict opinion that Baptists have always only believed and taught scripture, in light of that statement, to refuse to discuss this with non-baptists, imho, only, would leave even Arminians out of the discussion.

But, as I said, that is only the opinion of one.

I would like to see more structure here. It is difficult to discuss anything when the threads (even if I am the culprit, and sometimes I am) are mingled with various topics.

This, also would lessen the appearance of arguments, as the discussion would be 'done decently and in order'.

Bro. Dallas

 

I dont mind the forum being open to everybody.

I also think I can take the crud if people pour it on me.

Sometimes people are very blunt....I know I am blunt many times.

There may be times we need the hit of a "two by four" upside our skulls before things sink in.

Ok that was exageration!..LOL

It is also true that some people bring so much absurd doctrine in here that it is very difficult to reason with them.

God bless, KJB

 

Yeah, it makes you appreciate William Carey's laboring among the hindus and buddhists for seven years before seeing one conversion, imagine that, reasoning with them from the word of God. Seeing no evidence of fruit of his labor for seven years, and all the while, losing a son, his wife lost her mind, and he translating the Word of God into the native language.

He did none of this by relying on the arm of flesh.

Bro. Dallas