Is belief the hinge of our salvation?

[Havensdad]

Are you arguing Lot was not righteous? We know from Scripture he sure wasn't "practicing righteousness"!

The problem I see is you are assuming the converse and inverse of your bolded is also true "those who don't practice righteousness are not righteous". The text does not say that. Take it at face value.

Look at the scripture again. It DOES say just that...

"No one born of God makes a practice of sinning"

 

[webdog]

Look at the scripture again. It DOES say just that...

"No one born of God makes a practice of sinning"

Now you have REAL problems becuase the Bible DOES call Lot righteous!

 

[saved and sure]

Someone should have told this to Lot, one of 2 men in the entire Bible to be called both righteous and godly.

:applause: Great point. I find that those who want to tie obedience together with trusting in Christ in order to equal salvation have a problem explaining Lot.

In Christ,
Dave

 

[saved and sure]

Look at the scripture again. It DOES say just that...

"No one born of God makes a practice of sinning"

Do you believe that a believer must "work" to remain saved?

Are we saved and kept by the Grace of God or are we saved by the Grace of God and kept by our obedience to God?

In Christ,
Dave

 

[Havensdad]

Now you have REAL problems becuase the Bible DOES call Lot righteous!

So? Lot was Righteous. He had a few problems, but that was not his lifestyle. He "practiced" righteousness.


Gen 19:1 The two angels came to Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gate of Sodom. When Lot saw them, he rose to meet them and bowed himself with his face to the earth


Why was Lot righteous?

2Pe 2:7 and if he rescued righteous Lot, greatly distressed by the sensual conduct of the wicked
2Pe 2:8 (for as that righteous man lived among them day after day, he was tormenting his righteous soul over their lawless deeds that he saw and heard);


So yes> those born of God do not make a practice of sinning..

 

[Havensdad]

Do you believe that a believer must "work" to remain saved?

Are we saved and kept by the Grace of God or are we saved by the Grace of God and kept by our obedience to God?

In Christ,
Dave

We are saved by God, made righteous through the Holy Spirit that indwells us, and kept by God. It is all Him.

As the old Baptist preacher says "No change, no Christ".

 

[webdog]

So? Lot was Righteous. He had a few problems, but that was not his lifestyle. He "practiced" righteousness.


Gen 19:1 The two angels came to Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gate of Sodom. When Lot saw them, he rose to meet them and bowed himself with his face to the earth

That is your proof text Lot was "practicing" righteousness? How about selfishly choosing the good land for himself over Abraham (a disrespectful move, too taking the better place away from his uncle)?

How about giving his daughters up to be raped to the angry crowd?

How about having to be DRAGGED out of sinful S&G (disobeying the angels direct command)?

How about getting drunk...so drunk that he didn't even know he was performing incest with his daughters?

Living in righteousness, eh?

 

[saved and sure]

We are saved by God, made righteous through the Holy Spirit that indwells us, and kept by God. It is all Him.

As the old Baptist preacher says "No change, no Christ".

It truly is "all Him". Ours is only to choose to accept God's Gift.

In Christ,
Dave

 

[Havensdad]

It truly is "all Him". Ours is only to choose to accept God's Gift.

In Christ,
Dave

If we "choose" then it's NOT all him.

 

[Havensdad]

That is your proof text Lot was "practicing" righteousness? How about selfishly choosing the good land for himself over Abraham (a disrespectful move, too taking the better place away from his uncle)?

Abraham gave Lot first choice. It is YOUR interpretation that it was disrspectful for Lot to take that Land. Nowhere does it even imply in the text itself, that it was disrespectful of Lot to DO what his elder TOLD HIM to do...

How about giving his daughters up to be raped to the angry crowd?

Lot was willing to sacrifice his daughters, to protect the messengers of God. Misguided, sure. I suppose you condemn Abraham for raising the knife with the PURE intent of Killing Isaac?
Look here>

"I beg you, my brothers, do not act so wickedly.
Gen 19:8 Behold, I have two daughters who have not known any man. Let me bring them out to you, and do to them as you please. Only do nothing to these men, for they have come under the shelter of my roof."

How about having to be DRAGGED out of sinful S&G (disobeying the angels direct command)?

True. However, how easy would it be for you to leave your in laws in a city about to be nuked?

How about getting drunk...so drunk that he didn't even know he was performing incest with his daughters?

Yeah, after seeing his wife killed. Notice here>

Pro 31:6 Give strong drink to the one who is perishing, and wine to those in bitter distress;
Pro 31:7 let them drink and forget their poverty and remember their misery no more.

Living in righteousness, eh?

Discount part of scripture if you wish. Scripture says Lot was righteous, and he was greatly distressed at the wickedness around him. I will believe scripture, You can believe whatever tickles your fancy.

 

[psalms109:31]

over and over

If we "choose" then it's NOT all him.

I hear things like this a lot, our salvation will always be of Him and by grace no matter what God calls us to do to be saved.

Why, because you do not have to pay the penalty of your sin which isn't to believe, but death.

You are saved by grace, and you can do everything that God calls you to do and your salvation will always be Him, because Jesus paid your sin debt.

We are saved by grace through faith. Your faith didn't come by waking up one day and you just had it, it came from God through the words of Jesus.

We praise Jesus because none of us can be saved without Him.

 

[saved and sure]

If we "choose" then it's NOT all him.

The wonderful thing about Our God is that He loves us so much that He allows us to reject Him. His Love is pure and unlimited. He gave us the ability to choose and I thank Him for that.

I chose to trust in Jesus Christ for my salvation and not myself. God wants a relationship with us and that starts with us accepting Him as Saviour. A relationship cannot be forced, it has to be a choice.

Thank God He gives all people the choice. We will live eternally with the choice we make to accept or reject Christ as Saviour.

Dave

 

[nunatak]

That is your proof text Lot was "practicing" righteousness? How about selfishly choosing the good land for himself over Abraham (a disrespectful move, too taking the better place away from his uncle)?

How about giving his daughters up to be raped to the angry crowd?

How about having to be DRAGGED out of sinful S&G (disobeying the angels direct command)?

How about getting drunk...so drunk that he didn't even know he was performing incest with his daughters?

Living in righteousness, eh?

Webdog, correct me if I am wrong (do I actually think you might not?), but the ONLY way for Lot to be righteous is by faith?

 

[Allan]

There are many, one in particular who holds to the view that one must believe before a person is regenerated. Many say that the view that one must be regenerated before they can believe is false.
My question for those who hold to the view that one must believe before he can be regenerated is this;
In John 8, Jesus is speaking to a group of Jews. As He was speaking, some of the Jews believed. John 8:30
If you go on reading you will see where Jesus told this same group (Jews who believed) that they would die in their sin. He didn't say they might die in thier sin, He said that they would die.
What do you do with these scriptures? Why were the Jews not born again?
Could it be because they were not of God? Not His elect?

First > Hello brother Reformed !!

Second - You lost me.. your now contending that one can believe in Jesus but not be saved??

And as you know, I do not hold that regeneration precedes faith since I do not find it a scripturally established view.

But what the hey, lets begin

He was talking to two distinct groups. (I read a little further where web and another speak to this so I'll listen to your comment there before I go further here).

PS.. A few thoughts:

In the Non-Cal understanding being regenerated is being born-again/salvation. The Calvinist has a different view of what this 'entails' than the non-Cals. Non-Cals hold it to be salvation (ie.. saved from death and thus made alive) , where as the Cals hold it to be the prelude to salvation (ie.. made alive in order to be saved).

It would appear (at least to me) that when a person is regenerated before salvation, there is no need for 'faith' which scripture states brings salvation (at least with respect to the Cal view) According to some the person who is regenerated before salvation has four basic things that have happened when born-again
(1) given a 'new' nature AND
(2) now has the Holy Spirit indwelling them or residing in them (though not technically filling them yet) thus 'empowering them' AND
(3) that their relationship to and with God the Father is in a reconciled state (thus the new nature and indwelling Spirit of GOd) AND
(4) they are now IN Christ [able to be saved].

The problem in this view of a person being 'reconciled' before faith is that the person who is reconciled is considered by God justified toward God and therefor they are also sanctified by God making the person in a right relationship with God - Thus they are Righteous. All this without faith ever being excersized nor repentance made. All of these are against what scripture states : that they are all imputed by or through Faith. (see below) Otherwise what good is regeneration to the person who is still a sinner?

The scriptural mandate for one to excersize faith in order to be saved is no longer valid since the work of salvation is already done before repentence or Faith is even acknowledged. If these be true then what we have is salvation BEFORE repentance and faith and not as says the scriptre "believe and be saved", "repent or you shall all likewise perish" and "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved" et. (Mar 1:15, Luk 13:3,5 , Act 16:31, Rom 10:9 et.)

IF a person is regenerated by God before faith, they are in fact made alive unto God because they have been reconciled unto God by Christ's propitiation BEFORE faith but scripture says differently in Rom 3:25 and also in the verse below:

2Cr 5:17 Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

He is 'new' having no stain or taint, therefore they are IN Christ because they have been justified and cleansed from all unrighteousness.

As I previously stated, for this to be true:
1. They are already justified unto God
1. thereofore they are ALREADY sanctified - or set apart for and by God ; being pure
....a. and that he is now deemed by God due to the above to be righteous (or in a right relationship with God).
3. And all of these are done by the Holy Spirit who is now indwelling the Non-BELIEVER no matter how much time between being made alive and salvaiton.

But unfortunately the indwelling Holy Spirit, sanctification, justification, and righteousness are all imputed ONLY AFTER Faith is excersized.

It is set forth in teh scriptures the process of regeneration reveals that it IS the EVENT of Salvation which is of grace by faith and not the precurser to it. Otherwise you have the cart before the horse. Regeneration also only appears twice in scripture and it is never seen as that which is before salvation.

Scripture shows you can not be regenerate (which MUST include justification and sanctification and the infilling of the Holy Spirit) before faith.
WHY?

It is 'by faith' we are justified (Rom 3:28)
It is 'by faith' we are sanctified (Acts 26:18,)
It is 'by faith' we are made righteous (Rom 3:22, Rom 4:5)
It is 'by faith' the propitiation (substituationary death) is applied to man (Rom 3:25)
It is 'by faith' we receive (obtain) the indwelling Holy Spirit (Gal 3:14)

All of these show (and other verses as well) that unless faith is FIRST excerized there is no new birth which constitutes all of the above; For they are all BY FAITH.

This is why I beleive regeneration IS salvation and that we are born-again 'by faith' and both terms (regeneration and salvation) are described as being born-again (the New Birth).


And if none of these be true, then how does being born-again work, being that they are still in their sins and they do not have the Holy Spirit empowering them, not to mention the fact that they are not 'in Christ' and thus not in a reconsiled relationship to God the Father nor His Son? What does it do?

 

[Allan]

OK - Totally flying by the seat of my pants.

I think it's not just "a" belief because James 2:19 says "Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble."

I think it's a belief that stems from a heart that has been touched by God (yeah - a more Calvinist view). It's a different sort of belief.

Exactly but are you saying that God first regenerated them (made them alive) and then they beleived.

 

[Havensdad]

Exactly but are you saying that God first regenerated them (made them alive) and then they beleived.

Scripture says we have no faith. Therefore God must give it too us. In FACT, scripture says that God assigns to each man a specific amount of faith. (Romans 12:3).

The wonderful thing about Our God is that He loves us so much that He allows us to reject Him.

O.k... Try that in the real world and see how well that works. Next time your Child runs out in front of a car, ask him/her "Do you want me to save you?" If they say no, let them get squished.

REAL LOVE does what is best for someone, REGARDLESS of what they want. We see examples of this all the time in the real world in the example mentioned above, in drug interventions, when we tell our children "no, you can't run with scissors" etc.

This is why (besides the ton of scripture) the denial of God's sovereign election is so wrong. It makes God less loving than Humans.

The Psalms say that God Has "ordained" every one of our steps. Believe in the "free choice" fallacy if you wish. We do choose God, but only because he first chose us.

 

[Allan]

Agreed. Its more like that old person who's dead spirit has been made alive (born again or regenerated) by the Holy Spirit of God. If we have anything to do with being born again (including an exercise of the will) then we have reason to boast.

This is not true.

Rom 3 states that faith is not a work and therefore one can not boast in it.
Your continued contention regarding the 'excersize of the wiil' is based off of one passage that is taken (IMO) or viewed incorrectly.

The excersize of the will, is refering to man determining that he is to be saved and we know this because the sentence it is apart of refers to man being the originator of their salvation. Everything about the passage is about works but faith is not a work. Man does not determine that he will be saved, he must trust that is true and His word correct, that he might ask God to save him - not tell God to.

Jhn 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:
Jhn 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

God is the one who makes a person born again. Man can't obtain it through blood lineage, nor through his ability (relating to good works), nor by determining he will be (much the same as the new age belief of 'willing' something to happen) - Man can not make himself born-again (that is the whole premise of John 3) but it is something that only God can do 'to' man.

 

[Allan]

Scripture says we have no faith. Therefore God must give it too us. In FACT, scripture says that God assigns to each man a specific amount of faith. (Romans 12:3).

First, Hello and good morning

Second actually, your quite wrong. But on the chance I am, please produce the scripture that says 'we have no faith' or that no man has any faith. (Just so you know - I'm looking for the verb form and not the noun since the noun always refers to Christ who is our faith - or the whole of our belief relating to Christ)

All men have faith and if you deny that you deny common sence and bible as well.
For many in scripture believed in false gods and thus they excersized faith in that which can not save. Scripture is speaks of 'vain' faith, but in your view faith only comes from God and thus you have God giving people empty faith. I don't you mean that but that is the end result if carried on the natural course. Jesus speaks to the people about 'their' faith (your faith has made you.. your faith has cleansed you..) but you will never hear scripture state nor insinuates Gods faith He gave you has made you whole... cleansed you.. et..

Faith of itself is nothing and does nothing. Faith of itself can not even save. It must have an object and it is the object that gives faith any value or distinction.

With respect to your statement of non-FACT, other Calvinists do not agree with your rendering of that verse. (notables such as John Macarthur) as seen here in his commentary on Rom 12:3

There also are certain right attitudes toward our spiritual gifts. First, we must correctly recognize them and acknowledge that the Lord Himself provides exactly what He wants for us and everything we need to serve Him according to His will, just as [He] has allotted to each a measure of faith. In this context, a measure of faith seems to refer to the correct measure of the spiritual gift and its operating features that God sovereignly bestows on every believer. Every believer receives the exact gift and resources best suited to fulfill his role in the body of Christ.

A fictitious article published some years ago in the Springfield, Oregon, public school newsletter illustrates this principle very well.
Once upon a time, the animals decided they should do something meaningful to meet the problems of the new world. So they organized a school.

They adopted an activity curriculum of running, climbing, swimming and flying. To make it easier to administer the curriculum, all the animals took all the subjects.

The duck was excellent in swimming; in fact, better than his instructor. But he made only passing grades in flying, and was very poor in running. Since he was slow in running, he had to drop swimming and stay after school to practice running. This caused his web feet to be badly worn, so that he [became] only average in swimming. But average was quite acceptable, so nobody worried about that—except the duck.

The rabbit started at the top of his class in running, but developed a nervous twitch in his leg muscles because of so much make-up work in swimming.

The squirrel was excellent in climbing, but he encountered constant frustration in flying class because his teacher made him start from the ground up instead of from the treetop down. He developed “charley horses” from overexertion, and so only got a C in climbing and a D in running.

The eagle was a problem child and was severely disciplined for being a non-conformist. In climbing classes he beat all the others to the top of the tree, but insisted on using his own way to get there.…

The point of the story is obvious. Like the animals, every person has his own special but limited set of capabilities. Trying to operate outside those capabilities produces frustration, discouragement, guilt feelings, mediocrity, and ultimate defeat. We fulfill our calling when we function according to God’s sovereign design for us.

Paul is not here referring to saving faith, which believers already have exercised. He is speaking of faithful stewardship, the kind and quantity of faith required to exercise our own particular gift. It is the faith through which the Lord uses His measured gift in us to the fullest. It encompasses all the sensitivity, capacity, and understanding we need to rightly and fully use our uniquely-bestowed gift. Our heavenly Father does not burden us with gifts for which He does not provide every spiritual, intellectual, physical, and emotional resource we need to successfully exercise them.

To presume ever believer is given different levels of faith is to also presume that God ordained some believers to be more like Christ than others. Quite a delima you will have going for yourself if your not careful

O.k... Try that in the real world and see how well that works. Next time your Child runs out in front of a car, ask him/her "Do you want me to save you?" If they say no, let them get squished.

REAL LOVE does what is best for someone, REGARDLESS of what they want. We see examples of this all the time in the real world in the example mentioned above, in drug interventions, when we tell our children "no, you can't run with scissors" etc.

This is why (besides the ton of scripture) the denial of God's sovereign election is so wrong. It makes God less loving than Humans.

The Psalms say that God Has "ordained" every one of our steps. Believe in the "free choice" fallacy if you wish. We do choose God, but only because he first chose us.

I didn't make any such statement so it must be toward another poster.

However you present a false understanding of real love. True on one side real love 'does what is best for someone, REGARDLESS of what they want'. (thus Christ died while we were yet sinners) However in the 'real world' you do not force your love upon anyone, but you give it and they either receive it or reject it. You can stop your child from running into on coming traffic, or do drug intervention but that by no means necessitates the person whom you are loving will receive it as such.
Ex..Did you marry your wife because you loved her regardless of if she loved you or not and it was what was best for her?? Didn't think so.
In Other Words - for every example here in, it can be just as easily shown the opposite.

But the fact that is truth is that love must first be given, but that does not automatically necessitate it will be recevied. God desires all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of truth. God desires that all men repent.. God calls to some and they will not receive His call such as seen in the verses below:

Pro 1:23 Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.
Pro 1:24 Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded;
Pro 1:25 But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof:

A similar verse is here:

Rom 10:21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

And yes I agree that God chose us before we chose him. :thumbs:

 

[reformedbeliever]

First > Hello brother Reformed !!

Second - You lost me.. your now contending that one can believe in Jesus but not be saved??

And as you know, I do not hold that regeneration precedes faith since I do not find it a scripturally established view.

But what the hey, lets begin

He was talking to two distinct groups. (I read a little further where web and another speak to this so I'll listen to your comment there before I go further here).

PS.. A few thoughts:

In the Non-Cal understanding being regenerated is being born-again/salvation. The Calvinist has a different view of what this 'entails' than the non-Cals. Non-Cals hold it to be salvation (ie.. saved from death and thus made alive) , where as the Cals hold it to be the prelude to salvation (ie.. made alive in order to be saved).

It would appear (at least to me) that when a person is regenerated before salvation, there is no need for 'faith' which scripture states brings salvation (at least with respect to the Cal view) According to some the person who is regenerated before salvation has four basic things that have happened when born-again
(1) given a 'new' nature AND
(2) now has the Holy Spirit indwelling them or residing in them (though not technically filling them yet) thus 'empowering them' AND
(3) that their relationship to and with God the Father is in a reconciled state (thus the new nature and indwelling Spirit of GOd) AND
(4) they are now IN Christ [able to be saved].

The problem in this view of a person being 'reconciled' before faith is that the person who is reconciled is considered by God justified toward God and therefor they are also sanctified by God making the person in a right relationship with God - Thus they are Righteous. All this without faith ever being excersized nor repentance made. All of these are against what scripture states : that they are all imputed by or through Faith. (see below) Otherwise what good is regeneration to the person who is still a sinner?

The scriptural mandate for one to excersize faith in order to be saved is no longer valid since the work of salvation is already done before repentence or Faith is even acknowledged. If these be true then what we have is salvation BEFORE repentance and faith and not as says the scriptre "believe and be saved", "repent or you shall all likewise perish" and "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved" et. (Mar 1:15, Luk 13:3,5 , Act 16:31, Rom 10:9 et.)

IF a person is regenerated by God before faith, they are in fact made alive unto God because they have been reconciled unto God by Christ's propitiation BEFORE faith but scripture says differently in Rom 3:25 and also in the verse below:

He is 'new' having no stain or taint, therefore they are IN Christ because they have been justified and cleansed from all unrighteousness.

As I previously stated, for this to be true:
1. They are already justified unto God
1. thereofore they are ALREADY sanctified - or set apart for and by God ; being pure
....a. and that he is now deemed by God due to the above to be righteous (or in a right relationship with God).
3. And all of these are done by the Holy Spirit who is now indwelling the Non-BELIEVER no matter how much time between being made alive and salvaiton.

But unfortunately the indwelling Holy Spirit, sanctification, justification, and righteousness are all imputed ONLY AFTER Faith is excersized.

It is set forth in teh scriptures the process of regeneration reveals that it IS the EVENT of Salvation which is of grace by faith and not the precurser to it. Otherwise you have the cart before the horse. Regeneration also only appears twice in scripture and it is never seen as that which is before salvation.

Scripture shows you can not be regenerate (which MUST include justification and sanctification and the infilling of the Holy Spirit) before faith.
WHY?

It is 'by faith' we are justified (Rom 3:28)
It is 'by faith' we are sanctified (Acts 26:18,)
It is 'by faith' we are made righteous (Rom 3:22, Rom 4:5)
It is 'by faith' the propitiation (substituationary death) is applied to man (Rom 3:25)
It is 'by faith' we receive (obtain) the indwelling Holy Spirit (Gal 3:14)

All of these show (and other verses as well) that unless faith is FIRST excerized there is no new birth which constitutes all of the above; For they are all BY FAITH.

This is why I beleive regeneration IS salvation and that we are born-again 'by faith' and both terms (regeneration and salvation) are described as being born-again (the New Birth).


And if none of these be true, then how does being born-again work, being that they are still in their sins and they do not have the Holy Spirit empowering them, not to mention the fact that they are not 'in Christ' and thus not in a reconsiled relationship to God the Father nor His Son? What does it do?

Hello to you too brother. I'm not on here much anymore, but in my studies I came across this John 8 text where I somehow had never noticed that Jesus addresses Jews who believed, but told that they would die in their sin.
I don't want to go into the argument of regeneration necessarily.... as we have been there before huh?
My main purpose is the argument of whether two groups of Jews are in question. I am aware of the argument that some say there were two groups, but I disagree. I just don't see how you can get that from the plain reading of the text. Was God unable to say "Those who didn't believe answered Him?" John 8: 33. They answered Him, "We are Abraham's descendants, and have never been in bondage to anyone. How can you say, `You will be made free'?''
It is clear that Jesus was talking to the same Jews who said they believed. You would have to read into the text what is not there in order to come up with the conclusion of two different groups. You know what that is called brother. We can not do that in order to support our system of belief. Don't you agree that the context of John is that we have to be born again? That is why John the third chapter goes on the tell the verdict of God sending His only Son so that they should not perish........ the verdict or judgement being that men loved darkness rather than the light. Belief is not enough. You must be born again.

 

[skypair]

Discount part of scripture if you wish. Scripture says Lot was righteous, and he was greatly distressed at the wickedness around him. I will believe scripture, You can believe whatever tickles your fancy.

Hey, heavensdad, you'd save a lot of pain if you would note that the SOUL can be righteous while the flesh and spirit are not.

Remember, it says Lot was "tormented [vexed] in his RIGHTEOUS SOUL." It is the SOUL only that is saved and safe in salvation while we still live in the earth!

Now the point you make is that our flesh and spirit ought to be seen as progressively saved/glorified but this is not always true, is it? Often no change at all appears in a pastor's or missionaries kids after salvation, right?

The point that Lot's story ought to teach all of us is that our souls are safe with God but our flesh and spirits (mind, emotions, and will) aren't until the resurrection to glory.

skypair