Is believing/faith a work ?3

[agedman]

From a theological perspective, it is helpful, imo, to show an “order of salvation”. That is recognizing man’s sinful state of spiritual death and inability, then God Holy Spirit intervening to make the person “alive” (regeneration) in which the person is made to have the ability to understand the truth of their sinful condition and of Christ and His sacrificial death, the moment they are given the faith by God to realize that truth and accept Christ as Savior they pass from death to life and are no longer under God’s condemnation.

Although it is explained as a series of “steps”, it is probably more accurate to say it occurs simultaneously following God’s intervention and making the person “alive”.

One thing is certain. Scripture clearly tells us faith in Jesus is necessary for salvation. You cannot be placed in a right relationship with Gods without faith in Jesus.

peace to you

I would consider the process as simultaneously done.

John records our Lord saying two important happening must occur.
1) The Father giving that person to Christ.
2) The Christ stating emphatically that person will come to Him.

At neither point is the human involved but has the following happen simultaneously.
1) the person is quickened making the ears will be opened to the message of the gospel and simultaneously the understanding, the conviction, and inner desire to proclaim Him as his Savior. I believe Romans, “the Word is in your mouth and heart…” demonstrates this.
2) the person responds to the work of the Scriptures and Spirit.

I repeat, such is simultaneously accomplished.

I also consider that the unmerited favor of God doing the work above, at that moment instills that measure of faith in that person which will bring forth that which is harvested. One cannot be redeemed without the Scriptures coming to already alive ears and a changed core that demands repentance and compliance to the Father.

Now, from a human perspective, there are various schemes that try to put some “to do” list ordering of salvation.

Why?

Look to the parable of the sower.

Did the dirt have any choice in the usage, the preparation, the seed, the harvest?

 

[AustinC]

Why not just accept what I said instead of making something up?

Peace to you

Simple. I don't believe you are being honest. It is not a difficult task I asked of you. Yet you told me to do it myself...when I was not making the claim that a person must have faith before God can save them. If this is your claim, then surely you have some Bible passage or passages that clearly expresses your position on salvation. Yet, you have not yet shared anything. You have merely told me that I have misinterpreted Ephesians 2:4-9.

 

[canadyjd]

Simple. I don't believe you are being honest. It is not a difficult task I asked of you. Yet you told me to do it myself...when I was not making the claim that a person must have faith before God can save them. If this is your claim, then surely you have some Bible passage or passages that clearly expresses your position on salvation. Yet, you have not yet shared anything. You have merely told me that I have misinterpreted Ephesians 2:4-9.

First, let me clear. I was being honest. When I first came to this board I would write volumes, quoting scripture to prove my point. Almost always what I wrote was dismissed out of hand with “you are taking that out of context” or simply ignored altogether.

It is a waste of time for me to do all that work. However, if I can convince another to research the subject themselves, then they will read it, believe it, and remember it far better.

And seriously, if you do not know any of the many passages of scripture that teach people are brought into a right relationship with God through faith in Jesus, then we have no common foundation on which to have a conversation.

Goodnight

peace to you

 

[Brightfame52]

Oh good grief. Read your own post. Mr. Harbach, whom you quoted to support your position, agrees with me. “If faith must originate with me, then my salvation is by works.”

He affirms faith is necessary, but that such faith must originate with God.

“Faith must be a gift of God that I may believe”.

You simply misunderstand scripture and the role faith in Jesus has in bringing someone into a right relationship with God.

peace to you

He agrees with me, I have already explained all that. You believe on salvation conditioned on your work. I have read your posts.

 

[AustinC]

First, let me clear. I was being honest. When I first came to this board I would write volumes, quoting scripture to prove my point. Almost always what I wrote was dismissed out of hand with “you are taking that out of context” or simply ignored altogether.

It is a waste of time for me to do all that work. However, if I can convince another to research the subject themselves, then they will read it, believe it, and remember it far better.

And seriously, if you do not know any of the many passages of scripture that teach people are brought into a right relationship with God through faith in Jesus, then we have no common foundation on which to have a conversation.

Goodnight

peace to you

Again, your responsibility is to defend your position. No scripture has been provided in your defense.
I provided a passage and you attempted to tell me I interpreted the passage incorrectly. I explained it again, based on your objections in hopes you could at least see how I come to my opinion. I have no problem with you debating the text. When I post, I will, most often, quote a passage so readers can understand context. I believe that is very important so that we don't misunderstand what the author of the text is actually saying. Quoting a verse that cuts off context is very dangerous as it can lead the reader to a false conclusion. Therefore I will respond to a verse with a request for context surrounding that verse. I do not believe this is unreasonable.
I thank you for the dialogue. We certainly disagree on the means by which God chooses to save as well as the means by which faith is formed in the believer. I do not think you have actually addressed my questions within the text and I can see you have no intention to consider the text.
We are presently at an unproductive impasse.
Peace

 

[canadyjd]

He agrees with me, I have already explained all that. You believe on salvation conditioned on your work. I have read your posts.

And you believe people are brought into a right relationship with God without faith in Jesus.

Consider your nonsensical argument that God-given faith is a “work” and your clear heresy that people are “saved” without faith in Jesus.

You are a theological mess

peace to you

 

[AustinC]

And you believe people are brought into a right relationship with God without faith in Jesus.

Consider your nonsensical argument that God-given faith is a “work” and your clear heresy that people are “saved” without faith in Jesus.

You are a theological mess

peace to you

Did Paul have faith before the Damascus road when God knocked to the ground and told him that God had chosen him? Or was faith the effect of what God did?

 

[canadyjd]

Did Paul have faith before the Damascus road when God knocked to the ground and told him that God had chosen him? Or was faith the effect of what God did?

I have repeatedly stated God is the author of salvation, start to finish.

Since you keep focusing on Ephesians, consider Paul’s statement that you are “saved by grace through faith”.

In a very plain statement we see “salvation” as the end result, God’s “grace” as the cause agent of salvation, and “faith” as the means by which that right relationship with God is attained.

We are “saved by grace through faith”. I see no other possible conclusion for this passage. A person cannot be saved without faith in Jesus.

peace to you

 

[AustinC]

I have repeatedly stated God is the author of salvation, start to finish.

Since you keep focusing on Ephesians, consider Paul’s statement that you are “saved by grace through faith”.

In a very plain statement we see “salvation” as the end result, God’s “grace” as the cause agent of salvation, and “faith” as the means by which that right relationship with God is attained.

We are “saved by grace through faith”. I see no other possible conclusion for this passage. A person cannot be saved without faith in Jesus.

peace to you

With respect, that is not the order and the text does not support your assertion.
I hear you say that God is the author, start to finish, yet you continue to tell me that faith comes before salvation. I have laid out the text. I have pointed you to Paul in Acts 9. I have provided the analogy of one who falls off a cliff and needs saving. All showing you that faith was not required in order for God to save.
You agree God is the cause, but then you put the effect (faith) before the cause God's gracious salvation.
Why? How?
How can an effect come before the cause?

 

[canadyjd]

With respect, that is not the order and the text does not support your assertion.
I hear you say that God is the author, start to finish, yet you continue to tell me that faith comes before salvation. I have laid out the text. I have pointed you to Paul in Acts 9. I have provided the analogy of one who falls off a cliff and needs saving. All showing you that faith was not required in order for God to save.
You agree God is the cause, but then you put the effect (faith) before the cause God's gracious salvation.
Why? How?
How can an effect come before the cause?

Let’s try to focus on Ephesians 2:8-9, ok? It is very clear and pertains to your thread.

“For by grace are ye saved, through faith, and that not of yourself it is the gift of God, not of works lest any man boast”.

God’s grace is the “cause agent” for salvation. “Faith” is the means “through” which this right relationship is attained.

And notice Paul clearly identifies “faith” as the means” and then declares no works are involved.

So Paul clearly states exercising faith as the means to attain a right relationship with God is not a work.

Scripture denies your premise in this thread that exercising faith to attain salvation is a work.

I truly hope you will accept the clear teaching of scripture and abandon this nonsense that “faith” is a work.

peace to you

 

[agedman]

Let’s try to focus on Ephesians 2:8-9, ok? It is very clear and pertains to your thread.

“For by grace are ye saved, through faith, and that not of yourself it is the gift of God, not of works lest any man boast”.

God’s grace is the “cause agent” for salvation. “Faith” is the means “through” which this right relationship is attained.

And notice Paul clearly identifies “faith” as the means” and then declares no works are involved.

So Paul clearly states exercising faith as the means to attain a right relationship with God is not a work.

Scripture denies your premise in this thread that exercising faith to attain salvation is a work.

I truly hope you will accept the clear teaching of scripture and abandon this nonsense that “faith” is a work.

peace to you

I suggest that the gift of faith is coupled with the unmerited favor of God.

“Our faith” is measured out to us by the Grace (unmerited favor) God demonstrates by choosing both the salvation and service responsibilities.

No one (imo) is redeemed with out service required by God. One does not earn the Salvation, but as Paul said, “Work out your salvation…”

Ephesians is not placing faith as some innate self generated or part of the fallen individual’s ability.


There is nothing pertaining to this flesh that will enter the new Heaven and earth except the life God breathed into us. That includes the will, the blood, the heritage, the failures, the pain, the heartaches, …. Nothing of this world is taken into eternity to be with Him.

 

[AustinC]

Let’s try to focus on Ephesians 2:8-9, ok? It is very clear and pertains to your thread.

“For by grace are ye saved, through faith, and that not of yourself it is the gift of God, not of works lest any man boast”.

God’s grace is the “cause agent” for salvation. “Faith” is the means “through” which this right relationship is attained.

And notice Paul clearly identifies “faith” as the means” and then declares no works are involved.

So Paul clearly states exercising faith as the means to attain a right relationship with God is not a work.

Scripture denies your premise in this thread that exercising faith to attain salvation is a work.

I truly hope you will accept the clear teaching of scripture and abandon this nonsense that “faith” is a work.

peace to you

Sir, you can only focus on Ephesians 2:8-9 as it pertains to Ephesians 2:1-7 as well as all of Ephesians 1.
I went through this all with you...twice...to explain how verses 4-7 clarify and determine what "through faith" is referring to. It is very clear that you are purposely ignoring the whole of scripture so as to hold on to your presupposition. That is your right to treat the Bible in such a way, but I will not follow such a means of hermeneutics with God's word.

 

[Brightfame52]

If one is supposedly saved or justified after some action of theirs, like making a decision or what have you, that is salvation or justification by works and not grace. Whenever salvation is conditioned on a person doing is works ! 25

 

[Brightfame52]

And you believe people are brought into a right relationship with God without faith in Jesus.

Consider your nonsensical argument that God-given faith is a “work” and your clear heresy that people are “saved” without faith in Jesus.

You are a theological mess

peace to you

You dont believe people Christ died for are brought into a right relationship with God without them doing anything. Obviously what Christ did alone for them wasnt enough.

 

[canadyjd]

Sir, you can only focus on Ephesians 2:8-9 as it pertains to Ephesians 2:1-7 as well as all of Ephesians 1.
I went through this all with you...twice...to explain how verses 4-7 clarify and determine what "through faith" is referring to. It is very clear that you are purposely ignoring the whole of scripture so as to hold on to your presupposition. That is your right to treat the Bible in such a way, but I will not follow such a means of hermeneutics with God's word.

So, again, the language of Ephesians 2:8-9 is clear. Faith is the means through which salvation is attained AND it is not considered a “work” according to the Apostle Paul. Your premise that faith os a work is disproved.

The only question left to be answered is will you accept the clear teaching of scripture? If not, why not?

You asked for one verse. You said it was up to me to support my position. Despite my misgivings that what I said would be ignored out of hand, I gave you a verse and clearly disproved your premise.

I’m all done now

Thanks for the conversation

peace to you

 

[AustinC]

So, again, the language of Ephesians 2:8-9 is clear. Faith is the means through which salvation is attained AND it is not considered a “work” according to the Apostle Paul. Your premise that faith os a work is disproved.

The only question left to be answered is will you accept the clear teaching of scripture? If not, why not?

You asked for one verse. You said it was up to me to support my position. Despite my misgivings that what I said would be ignored out of hand, I gave you a verse and clearly disproved your premise.

I’m all done now

Thanks for the conversation

peace to you

Ephesians 2:4-7 defines when faith is established, which makes it clear that faith is the effect of God's gracious salvation, not the cause. It is your inability to read the whole text that causes you to misapprehend verses 8-9.
Also, I believe I asked for the bible passages that taught faith before salvation.

 

[Brightfame52]

If we say that God wont save an individual unless that individual accepts Christ or accepts Gods Grace, thats nothing short of promoting salvation by works, or salvation conditioned on what a person does, their act. See salvation is solely by Grace, its given and its received by the ones its given to by Grace. Grace isnt an offer, it sovereignly makes one alive Eph 2:5

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened[made alive] us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

A person doesnt need to accept whether or not God will make them alive or not. The dead lazarus wasn't offered to be made alive by Christ, he had no decision to make, it was Christs will alone and His Fathers that they may be glorified Jn 11:4

When Jesus heard that, he said, This sickness is not unto death, but for the glory of God, that the Son of God might be glorified thereby.

Hence those who say that Grace must be accepted in order for God to save you, are making the final condition for salvation contingent on what a person does, its nothing but good old mans religion motivated by the spiritually dead carnal mind. Its salvation by works !F

 

[canadyjd]

If we say that God wont save an individual unless that individual accepts Christ or accepts Gods Grace, thats nothing short of promoting salvation by works, or salvation conditioned on what a person does, their act. See salvation is solely by Grace, its given and its received by the ones its given to by Grace. Grace isnt an offer, it sovereignly makes one alive Eph 2:5

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened[made alive] us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

A person doesnt need to accept whether or not God will make them alive or not. The dead lazarus wasn't offered to be made alive by Christ, he had no decision to make, it was Christs will alone and His Fathers that they may be glorified Jn 11:4

When Jesus heard that, he said, This sickness is not unto death, but for the glory of God, that the Son of God might be glorified thereby.

Hence those who say that Grace must be accepted in order for God to save you, are making the final condition for salvation contingent on what a person does, its nothing but good old mans religion motivated by the spiritually dead carnal mind. Its salvation by works !F

Ephesians 2:8-9 is very clear. “By grace ye have been saved, through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is a gift of God. Not of works lest any man boast”.

Paul very clearly links “faith” to the attainment of salvation and immediately declares no works are involved.

Your premise that faith is a work is disproven by scripture.

I chose to believe God’s word, in context, clearly stated, with no need for theological hula-hoops.

Peace to you

 

[Brightfame52]

Ephesians 2:8-9 is very clear. “By grace ye have been saved, through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is a gift of God. Not of works lest any man boast”.

Paul very clearly links “faith” to the attainment of salvation and immediately declares no works are involved.

Your premise that faith is a work is disproven by scripture.

I chose to believe God’s word, in context, clearly stated, with no need for theological hula-hoops.

Peace to you

You dont understand Eph 2:8-9 aright, you condition salvation on what you do, an act of yours. You contradict Eph 2:8-9

 

[canadyjd]

You dont understand Eph 2:8-9 aright, you condition salvation on what you do, an act of yours. You contradict Eph 2:8-9

Please go ahead and enlighten me on Ephesians 2:8-9. Show me how I’m wrong.

“By grace are ye saved, through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is a gift of God. Not of works lest any man boast”.

Please address the “SAVED, THROUH FAITH” statement and how that relates to your premise that faith is a work.

peace to you