Is believing/faith a work ?

[Dave G]

The example of Cornelius contradicts what you have quoted in Post #125.

Cornelius did what Reformed theology teaches he was incapable of doing. Cornelius was a righteous and God-fearing man who sought God (Acts 10:22).

" What then? are we better [than they]? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
10 as it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 there is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
13 Their throat [is] an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps [is] under their lips:
14 whose mouth [is] full of cursing and bitterness:
15 their feet [are] swift to shed blood:
16 destruction and misery are in their ways:
17 and the way of peace have they not known:
18 there is no fear of God before their eyes. " ( Romans 3:9-18 ).

But why did he seek God?
What made him fear the Lord, when this says that none do?

 

[37818]

Romans 10:13-15 belief precedes salvation. I agree, although the time factor could be argued is almost simultaneous.

Not so. By reason Romans 10:13-14, "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? . . ." Salvation in the text promise is after asking. In Mark 16:16 is after the baptism. Neither the calling nor the immersion are the requirement. The fact that in those two promises it is to demonstraight that faith literally precedes the salvation which in those two promises faith, the work of faith and then the salvation. There can be no mistake in this matter.

 

[Dave G]

The fact that in those two promises it is to demonstraight that faith literally precedes the salvation which in those two promises faith, the work of faith and then the salvation. There can be no mistake in this matter.

" But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster [to bring us] unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus." ( Galatians 3:23-26 ).

This tells me that God's elect were kept under the Law before their faith came to them...
which means that God's purpose according to election stood before we came to faith.

To me, this agrees completely with Romans 8:28-30, Romans 9:6-24, Ephesians 1:3-14 and Ephesians 2:1-10, which all point towards the Lord creating someone for His grace and mercy...
We didn't do something to gain His favor.

The privilege of our belief in Christ was given to us ( Philippians 1:29 ), and our faith was authored and finished by Jesus Christ Himself ( Hebrews 12:2 ).

It's all a wonderful gift, my friend, not a reward for our actions.

 

[37818]

This tells me that God's elect were kept under the Law before their faith came to them...
which means that God's purpose according to election stood before we came to faith.

That is how you understand it. But acording to Hebrews 11:24-34 there was faith even with the Law.

 

[Campion]

As to post 125, you certainly are under no obligation to believe everything Packer says but I promise you he was aware of Cornelius. Scripture is under no obligation to tell us the exact working of the Spirit on every individual. Cornelius could have been a decent guy naturally. The Reformed position allows for that. God could have already been working on him. What I do know is that he is not a good example for you to use because he was in the transition time where the finished work of Christ was just becoming known and so there were many people of the Jewish faith who simply did not know about how Christ fit in to the new way. And the general belief of Jews was that God did not work with gentiles. Peter didn't know for sure in regards to Gentiles and that's what the chapter is about, especially verses 34 and 35 that you quoted.

Remember, total spiritual inability does not mean that everyone is as vile as they can be before they are saved. The Ethiopian eunuch was a serious student of scripture. Saul (later Paul) says he was completely blameless as concerning the law.

According to the Ordo Salutis of Reformed theology, Cornelius should have been the equivalent of a spiritual corpse. He is not regenerated when he prays to God. He had not heard the Gospel and was not a believer is Christ. He had not received the Holy Ghost. He even tried to worship St. Peter. Yet God still heard his prayer and said he is righteous.

Thus Cornelius is the example of that which Reformed theology says is impossible.

 

[Campion]

Faith is active. They all were justified by faith alone...because faith is...active.

The only place in Scripture where the words "faith alone" appear are a condemnation of it.

James 2:24

 

[DaveXR650]

I can't keep up with these posts but there seems to be some push back about the Calvinist idea of total spiritual inability or total depravity. This means that in our natural state, without God's supernatural intervention on our behalf, we are unable to see our spiritual state or understand and value the work of Christ and the mercy of God enough to close with Christ in a true saving faith. It does not mean that every individual is as nasty, violent and filthy as they can possibly be. There are people in their natural state who help other, give alms, sacrifice themselves in heroic deeds and try to act fair and just. They can be gentle and civil. But they do not have the ability to work up the desire to depend wholly on Jesus for salvation.

 

[Campion]

" What then? are we better [than they]? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
10 as it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 there is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
13 Their throat [is] an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps [is] under their lips:
14 whose mouth [is] full of cursing and bitterness:
15 their feet [are] swift to shed blood:
16 destruction and misery are in their ways:
17 and the way of peace have they not known:
18 there is no fear of God before their eyes. " ( Romans 3:9-18 ).

But why did he seek God?
What made him fear the Lord, when this says that none do?

Contextomy. In Romans 3:11, St. Paul is QUOTING David’s Psalm 14. The words, “As it is written…” in verse 10 should have clued you in. In Psalm 14, which St. Paul quotes, David states it is the fool who says there is no God, who does not do good and does not seek.

If St. Paul was not quoting David but instead meant in absolute terms that man does not seek God (as implied by the Calvinists), he would be contradicting his very own teaching, as just one chapter prior he says this to the Romans...

"To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life." - Romans 2:7

He would also be contradicting our very nature. We are creatures made in the image and likeness of our Creator. Hence man has an intellect and a will. He can thus know and love. Man is therefore a creature attuned to seeking causes and ends, and since God is necessarily the cause and the end of man, it is natural that man would seek Him. From the beginning, man has sought God, even those who were not privileged with receiving His revelation, i.e. the Greek philosophers. It is only when man acts contrary to his nature does God seem hard to find.


“But from there you will seek the Lord your God and you will find him, if you search after him with all your heart and with all your soul.” - Deuteronomy 4:29

“I love those who love me, and those who seek me diligently find me.” - Proverbs 8:17:

“You will seek me and find me, when you seek me with all your heart.” - Jeremiah 29:13

“But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.” - Matthew 6:33

“And he made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place, that they should seek God, in the hope that they might feel their way toward him and find him. Yet he is actually not far from each one of us, for 'In him we live and move and have our being'; as even some of your own poets have said, 'For we are indeed his offspring.’” - Acts 17: 26-28

 

[DaveXR650]

According to the Ordo Salutis of Reformed theology, Cornelius should have been the equivalent of a spiritual corpse. He is not regenerated when he prays to God. He had not heard the Gospel and was not a believer is Christ. He had not received the Holy Ghost. He even tried to worship St. Peter. Yet God still heard his prayer and said he is righteous.

You have posted something like this several times. I have explained it. I get it that you don't like reformed theology. Now you explain to me where YOU are coming from.

 

[Campion]

You have posted something like this several times. I have explained it. I get it that you don't like reformed theology. Now you explain to me where YOU are coming from.

I thought it was pretty obvious where I was coming from. Let me try again.

"If there’s one phrase that captures the essence of reformed theology, it is the little phrase, regeneration precedes faith." - R. C. Sproul

The Ordo Salutis in Reformed theology is a follows:

- Predestination
- Election
- Calling
- Regeneration
- Faith
- Repentance
- Justification
- Adoption
- Sanctification
- Perseverance
- Glorification

The example of Cornelius demonstrates this to be fallacious. Cornelius sought God and God heard his prayer and said he was righteous. Cornelius was not regenerated when he prays to God; had not heard the Gospel; was not a believer is Christ; had not received the Holy Ghost; tried even to worship St. Peter. Yet this pagan sought God and was said to be righteous.

 

[DaveXR650]

Once again you are restating why you don't like Calvinism. I get it. How would you describe your "Ordo Salutis".

 

[Dave G]

Contextomy. In Romans 3:11, St. Paul is QUOTING David’s Psalm 14. The words, “As it is written…” in verse 10 should have clued you in. In Psalm 14, which St. Paul quotes, David states it is the fool who says there is no God, who does not do good and does not seek.

I agree.
Paul is quoting, by inspiration, the very fact that there is none righteous...just as the Lord Jesus did here:

" And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? [there is] none good but one, [that is], God." ( Mark 10:18 ).

So, if there are none righteous and none good ( except God ) and all are sinners,
then the only reason that a man is righteous is because God justified them, or made them just in His sight.

 

[Dave G]

That is how you understand it. But acording to Hebrews 11:24-34 there was faith even with the Law.

I agree.

There were indeed people who had faith under the Law...
David was one of them.

Abraham also had faith, and it was before the Law was given by Moses hundreds of years later.

 

[Dave G]

He would also be contradicting our very nature. We are creatures made in the image and likeness of our Creator. Hence man has an intellect and a will. He can thus know and love. Man is therefore a creature attuned to seeking causes and ends, and since God is necessarily the cause and the end of man, it is natural that man would seek Him. From the beginning, man has sought God, even those who were not privileged with receiving His revelation, i.e. the Greek philosophers. It is only when man acts contrary to his nature does God seem hard to find.

According to Romans 1:18-32, Romans 3:10-18, John 3:19-20 and many other places such as Psalms 10, Psalms 14 and Psalms 53, we act according to our nature everyday.
We as a race don't seek God, we love sin, and we hate Him and His Son.

Our condition as believers was also such that we were fools, had darkened minds and walked according to this world and its ways...which the Lord tells us not to do ( Ephesians 4:17-19 ).

Believers are no longer blinded in their hearts and minds...
God has opened those hearts and minds, so that we now attend to His words and the truth of them, just as He did for Lydia ( Acts of the Apostles 16:14 ).

 

[agedman]

Is it not important to remember that our Lord said, "All the Father gives to me, will come to me?"

Is it not important to remember that our Lord said, "“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him?"

Why then is there argument concerning the order of salvation, and the how?

Were the words of our Lord not enough?

 

[kyredneck]

can't keep up with these posts

No worries, if there’s a constant on this board it’s redundancy, it’ll come back around.

 

[DaveXR650]

The only place in Scripture where the words "faith alone" appear are a condemnation of it.

That's a rather cheap shot when you know that "faith alone" in James is referring to a false faith that proves it's false by the fact that it doesn't result in anything. That type of faith is is a bare assent to the facts. This has nothing to do with the concept of justification by faith alone which is a core Christian principle. All the believing verses like John 3:16, 3:18. Romans 3:25, 3:27, Ephesians 2:8-9, all illustrate the unique position of faith. If that isn't enough other verses explicitly contrast faith with works. The theme in James is that a true faith will result in works. Do you see where works without faith is a way to justification anywhere - not just James? I keep asking you about your "Ordo Salutis" because you may be in real trouble doctrinally. A lot of guys on here hate Calvinism and I like sparring with them but at the end of the day they all believe that salvation is by grace through faith. I'm hoping you do too.

 

[agedman]

That's a rather cheap shot when you know that "faith alone" in James is referring to a false faith that proves it's false by the fact that it doesn't result in anything. That type of faith is is a bare assent to the facts. This has nothing to do with the concept of justification by faith alone which is a core Christian principle. All the believing verses like John 3:16, 3:18. Romans 3:25, 3:27, Ephesians 2:8-9, all illustrate the unique position of faith. If that isn't enough other verses explicitly contrast faith with works. The theme in James is that a true faith will result in works. Do you see where works without faith is a way to justification anywhere - not just James? I keep asking you about your "Ordo Salutis" because you may be in real trouble doctrinally. A lot of guys on here hate Calvinism and I like sparring with them but at the end of the day they all believe that salvation is by grace through faith. I'm hoping you do too.

John expresses that same theme in part of his letter called 1st John that James does.

 

[Squire Robertsson]

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[Squire Robertsson]

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