Is Bush acting in our best interest?

[poncho]

That's right you said it wasn't accurate so you are the accuser. Now what's not accurate about it Bunyon?

I look forward to your detailed rebuttal. Good night mi amigo.

 

[Bunyon]

I am not the one who accused the us of such dasterdly deeds. You and Daisy prove your accusations or don't sander America again.

 

[poncho]

So you are scared to answer and engage in meaningful debate of this subject.

 

[Bunyon]

No, I'll let you and Daisy back up what you say. Back up or shut-up

 

[poncho]

I've already posted my say Bunyon it's your turn to show me the errors of my ways. Then I can swamp you with evidence. Unless you're scared, and in that case I'll quickly except a white flag as a sign of your surrender and make it as painless as I can.

Now c'mon quit dancin around and show us what ya got.

 

[Bunyon]

Oh, I see. I did not realize that paragraph was a live link until you said that. But I can't read it all tonight. I will tomorrow though. Sorry to disappoint you.

 

[poncho]

Actually it's a bunch of links. I can wait take all the time you need amigo.

 

[Bunyon]

I have not forgotten the links, i'll get to them soon, I hope.

 

[LadyEagle]

We wouldn't have these problems if there weren't jihadists living among us.

Of course, if the State Department would have suspended the 50,000 per year green card lottery (instructions available in arabic, too, ya know), that would have helped.

And all the Student Visas - apply on line from anywhere in the world, even terrorist countries -that would have helped. Out of the millions of applications per year, how carefully do ya think all these are screened/scrutinized? Background checks? Highly unlikely. Fingerprints, big deal. Means nothing if you aren't already in a database somewhere.

Then there are the greased palms at US Embassies all over the globe that can "overlook" certain things when you want to come to the old US of A.

Seems the US State Department hasn't gotten on board on the "war on terror."

Check out their official web site & look at all the giveaways. Of course, if you're coming here to study, it is preferable for you to have your spouse & kids come along, too.

And when you happen to "overstay" your visa, don't worry, there won't be anyone checking up on you to boot you out. Not enough manpower or appropriations for such.

http://travel.state.gov/visa/immigrants/types/types_1318.html

[ December 30, 2005, 02:52 PM: Message edited by: LadyEagle ]

 

[StraightAndNarrow]

Originally posted by Bunyon:
No, I'll let you and Daisy back up what you say. Back up or shut-up

Would you have a problem with the FBI and police breaking into your home and turning it upside down without a search warrent? That happened to a friend of mine. The FBI did that because they saw him talking to some suspicious looking people on the street. It turns out he was evangelizing.

The FBI finally admitted they were wrong but refused to pay for the damage and told him he couldn't tell anybody about this or he would go to jail. He chose to tell me.

The government can, under the Patriot Act, arrest anyone they think is related to terrorism without due cause and without charging them with anything. They can keep that person in jail indefinitely without giving him the right to communicate with a lawyer. None of this requires any proof.

The government has admitted that they are spying on anti-war groups. One was a group of about a dozen Quakers in their 60's down in Florada. Of course, this is really nothing new since it was done during the Viet Nam war.

Is this America or the former Soviet Union?

 

[poncho]

Although covert action will be adapted to changing social and technological conditions, only a limited number of methods exist. A study of COINTELPRO revealed four basic approaches.

* First, there was infiltration. Agents and informers did not merely spy on political activists. The main purpose was to discredit and disrupt. Their presence served to undermine trust and scare off potential supporters. They also exploited this fear to smear genuine activists as agents.

* Second, there was psychological warfare from the outside. They planted false media stories and published bogus leaflets and other publications in the name of targeted groups. They forged correspondence, sent anonymous letters, and made anonymous telephone calls. They spread misinformation about meetings and events, set up pseudo movement groups run by agents, and manipulated or strong-armed parents, employers, landlords, school officials and others to cause trouble for activists.

* Third, there was harassment through the legal system, used to harass dissidents and make them appear to be criminals. Officers gave perjured testimony and presented fabricated evidence as a pretext for false arrests and wrongful imprisonment. They discriminatorily enforced tax laws and other government regulations and used conspicuous surveillance, "investigative" interviews, and grand jury subpoenas in an effort to intimidate activists and silence their supporters.

* Fourth and finally, there was extralegal force and violence. The FBI and police threatened, instigated and conducted break-ins, vandalism, assaults, and beatings. The object was to frighten dissidents and disrupt their movements. In the case of radical Black and Puerto Rican activists (and later Native Americans), these attacks, including political assassinations, were so extensive, vicious, and calculated that they can only be accurately called a form of official "terrorism."

For details, along with many examples of each of these methods, read Glick's well-documented and heavily footnoted "War At Home."


SOURCE

 

[Bunyon]

Poncho, I read the first link just now. At the very top under editor's notes it says, "this story was determined to be a hoax". Do I really have to read more?

 

[Bunyon]

Poncho, I read the first link just now. At the very top under editor's notes it says, "this story was determined to be a hoax". Do I really have to read more?

 

[poncho]

Originally posted by Bunyon:
Poncho, I read the first link just now. At the very top under editor's notes it says, "this story was determined to be a hoax". Do I really have to read more?

Do you mean to tell me that one hoax is enough to convince you that we aren't living in a police state? Have you forgotten cointelpro?

This is a drop in the ocean. Watch Neo-Cons use this as a torch bearer to make sweeping statements that anyone who says Homeland Security hassles Americans is a liar. Tell that to the owner of Pufferbelly Toys who got a visit from them for selling a knock off rubix cube.

SOURCE

 

[Bunyon]

Ponch, I did read the other treads even though I asked "if I had too". I don't think the war on terror is going to be perfect, but I do think I see some bias in some of the reports. I don't think is is without its concerns, but I don't think it shows us as having become a police state.

 

[Bunyon]

"-----cointelpro?"---------------------------

What is that?

 

[poncho]

Originally posted by Bunyon:
"-----cointelpro?"

Goodle Search Results Cointelpro

INTELLIGENCE ACTIVITIES AND THE

RIGHTS OF AMERICANS

_______

BOOK II
_______


FINAL REPORT

OF THE

SELECT COMMITTEE
TO STUDY GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS

WITH RESPECT TO

INTELLIGENCE ACTIVITIES
UNITED STATES SENATE

TOGETHER WITH

ADDITIONAL, SUPPLEMENTAL, AND SEPARATE
VIEWS


APRIL 26 (legislative day, April 14), 1976

Excesses in the name of protecting security are not a recent development in our nation's history. In 1798, for example, shortly after the Bill of Rights was added to the Constitution, the Allen and Sedition Acts were passed. These Acts, passed in response to fear of proFrench "subversion", made it a crime to criticize the Government. 3 During the Civil War, President Abraham Lincoln suspended the writ of habeas corpus. Hundreds of American citizens were prosecuted for anti-war statements during World War I, and thousands of "radical" aliens were seized for deportation during the 1920 Palmer Raids. During the Second World War, over the opposition of J. Edgar Hoover and military intelligence, 4 120,000 Japanese-Americans were apprehended and incarcerated in detention camps.

Those actions, however, were fundamentally different from the intelligence activities examined by this Committee. They were generally executed overtly under the authority of a statute or a public executive order. The victims knew what was being done to them and could challenge the Government in the courts and other forums. Intelligence activity, on the other hand, is generally covert. It is concealed from its victims 5 and is seldom described in statutes or explicit executive orders. The victim may never suspect that his misfortunes are the intended result of activities undertaken by his government, and accordingly may have no opportunity to challenge the actions taken against him.

B. The Questions

We have directed our investigation toward answering the, following questions:

Which governmental agencies have engaged in domestic spying?

How many citizens have been targets of Governmental intelligence activity?

What standards have governed the opening of intelligence investigations and when have intelligence investigations been terminated?

Where have the targets fit on the spectrum between those who commit violent criminal acts and those who seek only to dissent peacefully from Government policy?

To what extent has the information collected included intimate details of the targets' personal lives or their political views, and has such information been disseminated and used to injure individuals?

What actions beyond surveillance have intelligence agencies taken, such as attempting to disrupt, discredit, or destroy persons or groups who have been the targets of surveillance?

Have intelligence agencies been used to serve the political aims of Presidents, other high officials, or the agencies themselves?

How have the agencies responded either to proper orders or to excessive pressures from their superiors? To what extent have intelligence agencies disclosed, or concealed them from, outside bodies charged with overseeing them?

Have intelligence agencies acted outside the law? What has been the attitude of the intelligence community toward the rule of law?

To what extent has the Executive branch and the Congress controlled intelligence agencies and held them accountable?

Generally, how well has the Federal system of checks and balances between the branches worked to control intelligence activity?

SOURCE

[ December 31, 2005, 01:51 PM: Message edited by: poncho ]

 

[poncho]

CIA INTELLIGENCE COLLECTION ABOUT AMERICANS: CHAOS AND THE OFFICE OF SECURITY

I think CHAOS is on the move again 99 we've got to inform the Chief let me use your shoe phone will ya mine has gum on the ear piece.

Maxwell Smart

SOURCE

 

[poncho]

Excesses in the name of protecting security are not a recent development in our nation's history. In 1798, for example, shortly after the Bill of Rights was added to the Constitution, the Allen and Sedition Acts were passed. These Acts, passed in response to fear of proFrench "subversion", made it a crime to criticize the Government.

Now it's "radical muslim subversion".

3 During the Civil War, President Abraham Lincoln suspended the writ of habeas corpus. Hundreds of American citizens were prosecuted for anti-war statements during World War I, and thousands of "radical" aliens were seized for deportation during the 1920 Palmer Raids.

June 20, 2002

Bush And Ashcroft Assail Habeas Corpus, Scholar Says

WASHINGTON--Yesterday, the Bush administration asserted sweeping new police powers over the American people. In a legal brief filed with a federal appellate court, the Department of Justice asserted that Yaser Esam Hamdi, who is an American citizen, can be held incommunicado on a military installation as an "enemy combatant." A lower court ruled that Hamdi should have access to an attorney, and the Justice Dept appealed that ruling to the Fourth Circuit Court of Appeals. Timothy Lynch, director of the Cato Institute's Project on Criminal Justice had the following comments on the issue: SOURCE

During the Second World War, over the opposition of J. Edgar Hoover and military intelligence, 4 120,000 Japanese-Americans were apprehended and incarcerated in detention camps.

After decades of scholarship questioning Roosevelt’s New Deal programs and wartime tactics, it is refreshing finally to see an unwavering defense of one of FDR’s most universally discredited policies: the forced evacuation, relocation, and internment of 112,000 innocent Japanese American civilians, citizen and non-citizen alike. FDR is the quintessential hero of modern Democrats, but his camps, according to Malkin, warrant bipartisan applause. In four hundred pages of text, government documents, and photos of happily interned Japanese Americans, Malkin gives us plenty to consider.

So Much More Than Just Japanese Internment

Malkin explains that the term "Japanese Internment" is loaded, because there are technically different correct names for all the distinct policies Roosevelt had for relocating and detaining people without trial. Not all ethnic Japanese who were "relocated" were technically "interned." In a series of charts in Appendix F, Malkin lists the many "relocation centers," "citizen isolation camps," "internment hotels," and other places at which FDR detained people without charging them of crimes. Malkin insists repeatedly that lumping all of the detainment policies and centers in the "internment" category is not only technically inaccurate, but, in some way or another, it aids the enemy.

In fact, Roosevelt – always inclusive and progressive – not only interned and detained those with Japanese heritage; he had the multicultural good sense also to intern Germans, Italians, Hungarians, Romanians, and Bulgarians. More than one might gather from the conventional wisdom, FDR practiced Equal Opportunity Internment.

Malkin shows that the Japanese were not the only ones who had to sacrifice for the Good of the Fatherland:

"Enemy aliens from all Axis nations–not just Japan–were subjected to curfews, registration, censorship, and exclusion from sensitive areas… And beginning in September 1940, more than a year before Pearl Harbor, more than 10 million young men of all backgrounds were conscripted into our nation’s armed forces. Approximately two-thirds of the 292,000 Americans killed and 671,000 wounded in the war were forced to serve."(xiv)

So there you have it! Roosevelt wasn’t just picking on the Japanese. Even before the war he had the foresight to begin drafting young men (just in case the Japanese ever attacked in a surprise strike of which FDR had no expectation whatsoever). And by the end of the war he had forced nearly 200,000 young men to fight to their deaths! Compared to the conscripted war dead, the internees were lucky FDR didn’t kill them.

Malkin also points out that the United States wasn’t the only country to detain "enemy aliens" without trial. "During World War II," she writes, "virtually every major country – from Japan to Germany, from China to Egypt, from Holland to New Zealand – interned its enemy aliens." (54)

Even the Germans and Japanese did it during World War II! So it’s not like the US government did something the Nazis weren’t willing to do!

SOURCE

Did i mention that we really really really need to amend or repeal posse commitatus in case of floods and bird flu just in case people start asking why we've been training U.S. troops along side foreign troops for years in anticipation of martial law in this country such as Operation Urban Warrior?

The invasion of Oakland California in photos. link

Or if you prefer you can watch it on video here....link.