Is Cal/Non-Cal important enough to divide?

[quantumfaith]

Of course, providing that people have that attitude to begin with. What about SBC churches that close their doors to Calvinists?

EWF, is this wrong, for a local church to state clearly that they are not calvinistic in their beliefs? Much like Icon says about reading certain confessions and documents and not feeling as though one agrees or accepts some, most or any of it? Should they "ban" someone, certainly not. However I see nothing wrong with being up front as to the theological leanings and proclivities of any church, if fact, I appreciate it when things are clearly communicated in advance.

 

[Winman]

I don't think it is wrong for any church to prohibit someone holding different views from being a member. If a church is Reformed and wants to prohibit those who are Free Will from being members, that is their right.

It would be like someone who wants a woman to be pastor or a gay person to be pastor. They are welcome to attend as long as they don't start trouble, but I do not think it is wrong to prohibit them from becoming a member.

I would not want to attend a Reformed church, and I do not understand why a Reformed person would want to attend a Baptist church that believes in free will.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

EWF, is this wrong, for a local church to state clearly that they are not calvinistic in their beliefs? Much like Icon says about reading certain confessions and documents and not feeling as though one agrees or accepts some, most or any of it? Should they "ban" someone, certainly not. However I see nothing wrong with being up front as to the theological leanings and proclivities of any church, if fact, I appreciate it when things are clearly communicated in advance.

Is that the Church of Jesus Christ or is it a guarded man-made church that misrepresents Christ? Look at it through that lens Dave. We have two testimony's from the two Tom's (One Calvinist & one not) & both SBC. Neither church bars Calvinists. Both encourage honest Christian interaction. Also have you seen 12 Strings recent thread? In short, his pastor is a Calvinist & invited a Non Calvinist Pastor to preach at his church....both have respect for one another apparently. Whats the problem then?

 

[seekingthetruth]

WELL John,

At least this shows you are willing to stand by what your local church holds as a statement of faith:thumbsup:
In a calvinist church the members are to look over the confession of faith to see if they can submit to it in general.....if not why would they want to join.

Trust me John , I could visit your church...pray for any unsaved that are there the the word preached would convict them....but why would I want to go where people oppose the truth of God's absolute sovereignty?

You just to get that little jab in at the end didnt you?

Well, since you started us down this road....[edited] with the intent to discourage lost people from responding to God for fear not being one of the "elect'

Some people have lived such a sinful life that Calvinism and the thought of having to be predestined plainly discourages sinners.

It is your doctrine that is NOT the truth of the Bible. It is man-made.

I can use 'systematic theology' to prove or disprove any doctrine I want to, just like Calvinists do by linking together unrelated scriptures to make them say what you want them to say.

I despise Reformed Theology, and the damage it is doing to God's people.

I did not wish to go this far in this discussion, [personal attack deleted]

John

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Judge & Jury...... I rest my case. No more questions.

 

[seekingthetruth]

Of course, providing that people have that attitude to begin with. What about SBC churches that close their doors to Calvinists?

Calvinism is essentially a completely different religion than most SBC or even IFB churches.

Why would a Calvinist want to join a church that they disagree with unless the intent was to Calvinize them?

John

 

[seekingthetruth]

Judge & Jury...... I rest my case. No more questions.

I agree with you here.

Calvinism is a seperate religion of itself.

Calvinist and regular Christians don't mix.

John

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

1 Peter 4:12-14

12 Dear friends, do not be surprised at the fiery ordeal that has come on you to test you, as though something strange were happening to you. 13 But rejoice inasmuch as you participate in the sufferings of Christ, so that you may be overjoyed when his glory is revealed. 14 If you are insulted because of the name of Christ, you are blessed, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests on you

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Calvinism is essentially a completely different religion than most SBC or even IFB churches.

Why would a Calvinist want to join a church that they disagree with unless the intent was to Calvinize them?

John

Maybe you should ask that question to Tom Butler & Guy Fredericks? Or perhaps you should rephrase the question to say, Why would a Calvinist want to join up with Christians who hate & ostracize them?

 

[JonC]

Calvinism is essentially a completely different religion than most SBC or even IFB churches.

Why would a Calvinist want to join a church that they disagree with unless the intent was to Calvinize them?

John

What is interesting is that Basil Manly (one of the founders of the Southern Baptist Convention) was a Calvinist – as was W.B. Johnson (the first president of the Southern Baptist Convention). You could add people like Roger Williams, William Carey and Luther Rice to the list.

I have to give you credit and assume that you know this and are merely trying to agitate “Earth, Wind & Fire,” but Calvinism is not a religion, neither is Arminianism.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

What is interesting is that Basil Manly (one of the founders of the Southern Baptist Convention) was a Calvinist – as was W.B. Johnson (the first president of the Southern Baptist Convention). You could add people like Roger Williams, William Carey and Luther Rice to the list.

I have to give you credit and assume that you know this and are merely trying to agitate “Earth, Wind & Fire,” but Calvinism is not a religion, neither is Arminianism.

The operative word here is "Trying" LOL, but I dont believe that is the brother's goal. It was to lash out at Icono by attempting to disqualify "Calvinism" as a legitimate soteriological position in Christianity. I thank you Jon for pointing out the Calvinists long & productive history in both creating & supporting the Southern Baptist movement. :wavey:

 

[MB]

Tom recently described the SBC, and his church, thusly:



-Main Question: Is this a positive state for an individual church, or a group of churches as a whole, to be in? I for one would say yes, as it also described my church. (also SBC)

-Icon responded to Tom with this statement:


-If I am reading Icon correctly, it seems he would say that this is not really a good state for things to be in, as it means the Cals are not being direct enough in their attemts to convince everyone else of the truth and importance of their beliefs. (if I have mis-read Icon, I appologize, but I'm sure there are others who would say this as well).

-If you are Cal, should Cals force the Cal issue in their churches and denominations?

-If you are non-cal, should we simply form separate churches and conventions for the Cals?

I just have a question. How can a church stand when Christ said;
Mar 3:25 And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand.

Certainly we have had Calvinist come to our church. Although if they cannot refrain from telling others about their doctrines in our church they will be told to leave.

It isn't a mater of hate but a matter of what the majority wishes their doctrines to be. I go to church to worship God not to argue doctrines. Our congregation agreed on which doctrine a new comer may not like that but it's really none of their bussiness. Just like a Calvinist church would not like it if I went there and started to teach freewill.
MB

 

[JonC]

I just have a question. How can a church stand when Christ said;
Mar 3:25 And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand.

Certainly we have had Calvinist come to our church. Although if they cannot refrain from telling others about their doctrines in our church they will be told to leave.

It isn't a mater of hate but a matter of what the majority wishes their doctrines to be. I go to church to worship God not to argue doctrines. Our congregation agreed on which doctrine a new comer may not like that but it's really none of their bussiness. Just like a Calvinist church would not like it if I went there and started to teach freewill.
MB

They disagree but are united in Christ and in the gospel.

There are actually both Democrats and Republicans in my church (I don’t really understand why the other holds his views, but he probably feels the same about me). You could say that this is different because it is not about Christianity – but that is not so. Our political views are all about the application of Scripture in our everyday lives. Yet we still disagree. But we are united in Christ and love.

To many churches, this is not a dividing factor. There may be one primary view, but still, iron sharpens iron. I see it to be what Spurgeon called a “healthy irritation.”

But to some churches, it would probably be a dividing factor. It depends on how dogmatically one leans on his own understanding.

 

[JonC]

The operative word here is "Trying" LOL, but I dont believe that is the brother's goal. It was to lash out at Icono . :wavey:

Iconoclast might have earned a little agitating.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

My views, as indicated in an earlier post that I will repost....


We all live in an age of weak theology & casual Christian conduct. If you wish to marginalize , then look to those folks that enter the church with with secular, humanistic, relativistic, materialist & anti-intellectual agenda's who will corrupt & destroy; not the Calvinist wishing to Honor & Glorify God. In that regard, I am convinced that you are on the wrong path. True Christianity needs to be unifying.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Iconoclast might have earned a little agitating.

Thats hilarious Jon...... Maybe you should read the commentary again for clarification. Note also that it was done in red print.

"I believe that Calvinism comes straight from the pits of Hell"

This is not only a lashing out at one individual that the guy is PO'd at, it is clearly a slur against all those who are Calvinists. Do you agree with my assessment?

 

[seekingthetruth]

My views, as indicated in an earlier post that I will repost....


We all live in an age of weak theology & casual Christian conduct. If you wish to marginalize , then look to those folks that enter the church with with secular, humanistic, relativistic, materialist & anti-intellectual agenda's who will corrupt & destroy; not the Calvinist wishing to Honor & Glorify God. In that regard, I am convinced that you are on the wrong path. True Christianity needs to be unifying.

Calvinists can only unite with other Calvinists.

Yes Ive read the exceptions on here, but it isnt over yet. Basically, having a church that is half Cal and half regular Christians would stiffle the pastor. There would be many scriptures he could not teach on. And how would he present the gospel to new people? Or does he give a freewill gospel this week, and a reformed gospel next week to make it all fair? And please, dont tell me that the gospel of Calvinism is the same as the gospel of regular Christians, because Cals dont believe that the gospel is for all men....that their gospel a false gospel.

Calvinists are their own special breed, with their own special gospel, and their own special religion, and regular Christians should have no fellowship with a false, man-made doctrine.

John

 

[JonC]

My views, as indicated in an earlier post that I will repost....


We all live in an age of weak theology & casual Christian conduct. If you wish to marginalize , then look to those folks that enter the church with with secular, humanistic, relativistic, materialist & anti-intellectual agenda's who will corrupt & destroy; not the Calvinist wishing to Honor & Glorify God. In that regard, I am convinced that you are on the wrong path. True Christianity needs to be unifying.

I like that. I’d probably substitute “Christian” for “Calvinist,” but it points out the changes that have occurred in our churches.

I hold a Reformed view, but I would much rather sit under a godly Methodist pastor who preaches the Word of God than a Presbyterian who is only interested in supporting his theological system of understanding. You are exactly right that those who enter any church with their own agenda is there to destroy.

 

[seekingthetruth]

Thats hilarious Jon...... Maybe you should read the commentary again for clarification. Note also that it was done in red print.

"I believe that Calvinism comes straight from the pits of Hell"

This is not only a lashing out at one individual that the guy is PO'd at, it is clearly a slur against all those who are Calvinists. Do you agree with my assessment?

I agree with you. I meant it just the way you put it.

But, it is the Calvinists that continuously make slurs about regular Christians being "ignorant" and "spititual babes".

Why is it that you can insult millions of Christians, but you get all upset when one Christian fires back at you with some truths?

John

 

[JonC]

Thats hilarious Jon...... Maybe you should read the commentary again for clarification. Note also that it was done in red print.

"I believe that Calvinism comes straight from the pits of Hell"

This is not only a lashing out at one individual that the guy is PO'd at, it is clearly a slur against all those who are Calvinists. Do you agree with my assessment?

Yes, I agree with your assessment. I said he might have earned a little agitating (the “opposing the truth of God’s absolute sovereignty” part pushes the truth of the opposing view).

seekingthetruth could have just poked him in the belly – he didn’t have to pull out the tire iron. :smilewinkgrin: