Is Calvinism a False Doctrine?

[DHK]

Btw, I've never been impressed with anyone who has attacked the doctrines of grace by traveling the ad hominem broken path.

A parallel would be attacking the King James Version, and saying that it is an unreliable translation because King James was allegedly a homosexual.
--Both accusations are wrong.
But even if the translational quality of the KJV was being attempted to be shown weak, then what does assassinating the character of the King have anything to do with it?

The same is true of Calvin.

 

[skypair]

But even if the translational quality of the KJV was being attempted to be shown weak, then what does assassinating the character of the King have anything to do with it?

It's called "assassinating the PARADIGM of the King." The "character" is not broke -- the "paradigm" is.

skypair

 

[gb93433]

All,

I think what TC is saying is that he uses Calvinism as the "model" of his own theology.

The problem is that the Bible commands us to use Jesus as our model. No man can serve two masters.

 

[TCGreek]

A parallel would be attacking the King James Version, and saying that it is an unreliable translation because King James was allegedly a homosexual.
--Both accusations are wrong.
But even if the translational quality of the KJV was being attempted to be shown weak, then what does assassinating the character of the King have anything to do with it?

The same is true of Calvin.

Yes, I quite agree. But many don't seem to get that.

 

[TCGreek]

All,

I think what TC is saying is that he uses Calvinism as the "model" of his own theology. Then he can say that that "model" (+/- a few parts) can be passed on without the name of Calvinism, or its earlier name Augustinianism, attaching to it necessarily. This has the added advantages of 1) not "attaching" to one man and his life and 2) being able to use highly developed defenses of the theology in support of his own thinking.

Basically, TC has chosen to believe in the sovereignty of God and election unto salvation model. The cross here is only "discovered" as a necessity after regeneration/rebirth/salvation has already been delivered to the "elect" -- in their parlance, after the "elect" has been "drawn" and "given" by God to Christ.

Please correct me if or where I am wrong, TC. I know you don't "follow Calvin" nor "believe on" him. I believe that is your salvation model, right?

skypair

Skypair, I just said that I'm no Calvin scholar, but I noticed that you have become a TC scholar.

In my soteriology, I'm only trying to be faithful to Scripture, even though you and other may not agree.

 

[BobRyan]

As I have stated - Calvinism stands or falls based on the actual Bible support it has or the degree to which it blatantaly contradicts scripture (and the case for that is myriad).

Why all the focus on "Calvin instead"??

in Christ,

Bob

 

[skypair]

In my soteriology, I'm only trying to be faithful to Scripture, even though you and other may not agree.

Try the "Avis way" --TRY HARDER! :laugh: :laugh:

For instance, is this what you believe?

The cross here is only "discovered" as a necessity after regeneration/rebirth/salvation has already been delivered to the "elect" -- in their parlance, after the "elect" has been "drawn" and "given" by God to Christ, then they believe.

skypair

 

[DHK]

Try the "Avis way" --TRY HARDER! :laugh: :laugh:

For instance, is this what you believe?

skypair

I am sure TC will answer for himself. It probably isn't what he believes. But even if it is, it is irrelevant. Your problem is that everything must be put into a man's box. I believe in sola scriptura, not Calvin scriptura. I am not a Calvinist. I am not an Arminian. I refuse to be boxed in by some man's theology.

What do you believe in Skypair: red or blue?
This is the logic of your question.
There are other colors besides red and blue.
There are other positions besides Calvinism and Arminianism. One of them simply is: "I believe the Bible as the Holy Spirit guides me through my own study apart from Calvin or other such theologians."

Have you ever given any thought to doing personal Bible study; I mean real personal Bible study--apart from your faithful commentaries?

 

[TCGreek]

Try the "Avis way" --TRY HARDER! :laugh: :laugh:

For instance, is this what you believe?




skypair

Skypair, we have debated these issues over and over again, and to no avail.

 

[skypair]

Have you ever given any thought to doing personal Bible study; I mean real personal Bible study--apart from your faithful commentaries?

Huh?? That's kind of a "slap in the face," don't you think? Regardless of what we are talking about here, what makes you so presumptuous as to assert that I haven't, indeed, done much personal Bible study without commentaries? (Should I "report" this post to the mods???)

Seriously, DHK, that is VERY offensive to me.

skypair

 

[skypair]

Skypair, we have debated these issues over and over again, and to no avail.

Well, not in just this way. Is this how you see it? "...after the 'elect' has been "drawn" and "given" by God to Christ, then they believe." I mean, these are critical terms (drawn, given) to Calvinist sotierology, aren't they? Is there something wrong with my formulation of them?

Is there possibly in yours or my understanding of these terms a rapproachment we could reach by a common understanding of them or at least an analysis of this configuration?raying:

skypair

 

[DHK]

Huh?? That's kind of a "slap in the face," don't you think? Regardless of what we are talking about here, what makes you so presumptuous as to assert that I haven't, indeed, done much personal Bible study without commentaries? (Should I "report" this post to the mods???)

Seriously, DHK, that is VERY offensive to me.

skypair

It is a rebuke. There are some that cannot study their Bible without Calvin.
For you it may not be Calvin, but some other. This is what I am speaking about. Do some objective Bible Study, using the Bible alone trying to put your own presuppositions aside. That is a suggestion. We tend to look at Scripture through rose-colored eyes.

Jesus simply said: "Search the Scriptures."

 

[TaliOrlando]

It is a rebuke. There are some that cannot study their Bible without Calvin.
For you it may not be Calvin, but some other. This is what I am speaking about. Do some objective Bible Study, using the Bible alone trying to put your own presuppositions aside. That is a suggestion. We tend to look at Scripture through rose-colored eyes.

Jesus simply said: "Search the Scriptures."

Amen!!!:applause:

 

[skypair]

It is a rebuke. There are some that cannot study their Bible without Calvin.
For you it may not be Calvin, but some other. This is what I am speaking about. Do some objective Bible Study, using the Bible alone trying to put your own presuppositions aside. That is a suggestion. We tend to look at Scripture through rose-colored eyes.

Jesus simply said: "Search the Scriptures."

OK, so I am allowed to "rebuke" also, right? I'll remember to use that terminology so I don't get booted! :laugh:

I was just telling TC 6 weeks ago how I was studying Romans as I went to bed at night --- obviously no "helps." Just prayer, God, and lil' ole me. I discovered many good things. And this is a habit I take up regularly in my walk. I have made many Spirit-inspired discoveries in this very way. So I'm just not sure if your "rebuke" didn't involve projection as much as anything on your part.

skypair

 

[Crabtownboy]

Some, and I won't use a label, use the Bible to find proof texts to support their already closely held beliefs.

Others search the Bible and allow the Bible to speak to them and as they progress through life their beliefs change. :tonofbricks:

 

[skypair]

Others search the Bible and allow the Bible to speak to them and as they progress through life their beliefs change. :tonofbricks:

As in "grow," right? Yeah, I've found that.

I've found that when I start down a false path, I very soon come into a "box canyon" wherein I can't get out but by retracing my steps in. But once I go back and review the notions that got me on the wrong path, I quite soon went another way and found the truth!

One of the things I find is VERY helpful is to constantly be reading scripture so that when some word appears or some concept, it jumps out at us and begs us to compare it with other scripture! I have mostly done this with the NT but it is wonderful how the Spirit works in this way. As a young Christian, I rarely experienced it except through having it preached to me.

I believe we are to help one another in this quest toward "unity in the faith and knowledge of the Son of God." (Eph 4:13) "Spiritual growth," we would call it.

skypair

 

[Doubting Thomas]

I'm not a Calvinist, but I will say that I'd rather have 15 5-point Calvinists in the pews than one Pelagian (as is often found in them).

I'm not so sure...both Pelagianism and Calvinism (monergism) are heretical extremes.

 

[Rippon]

I'm not so sure...both Pelagianism and Calvinism (monergism) are heretical extremes.

You are correct in that both are polar opposites of the other . However , Calvinism is entirely biblical and in no way heretical . Mainstream Christianity of today is closer to Pelagianism than Calvinism .

 

[TaliOrlando]

You are correct in that both are polar opposites of the other . However , Calvinism is entirely biblical and in no way heretical . Mainstream Christianity of today is closer to Pelagianism than Calvinism .

God Bless,

Why so many labels once again... why defend Calvinism so much, let's just follow Christ and focus on Christ... and follow what Christ did... that Biblical... Calvanism was stated by a man, in fact its named Calvanism because his last name was Calvin. How, the body of Christ is so blind that they follow a man... come on folks a man... I dont need no books, quotations or anything... All I need is in the Bible... :thumbs:

 

[Rippon]

God Bless,

Why so many labels once again... why defend Calvinism so much, let's just follow Christ and focus on Christ... and follow what Christ did... that Biblical... Calvanism was stated by a man, in fact its named Calvanism because his last name was Calvin. How, the body of Christ is so blind that they follow a man... come on folks a man... I dont need no books, quotations or anything... All I need is in the Bible... :thumbs:

I think you know mpore than you are admitting . First of all it's Calvinism , not "Calvanism" . Calvinism does indeed focus on Christ and the Scriptures .Calvinism was not started by John Calvin . That's its nickname . He deserves a great deal of credit for organizing Scripture and its doctrines and explaining things so well though . You'll find many Calvinists before John Calvin was born ( 1509 ) . Wycliffe , the Venerable Bede , Gottshalk , Augustine and hosts of others . In their time they might have been called "Predestinarians" and other more offensive names . Older contemporaries of Calvin held to what is now called Calvinism . Men such as Tyndale , Bucer , Luther are just a few .

Most Calvinists profess that they have read very little of Calvin's works . So they can't be charged of following him . Those that have read him do not follow him . They follow Christ . But Calvin was a good model to one following Christ . All glory to the Lord for raising him up for His purposes .
So , you "don't need no books" . Perhaps you should reconsider :laugh: .

Do you listen to sermons ? Then you are kind of reading a book . Your pastor is explaining the Word of God . Are you claiming you don't read any Christian books ? As a Christian I find that rather incredible . Do you belive that the Lord honors those who write commentaries and other Bible study helps ? Or should they all be disgarded ? Do not pat yourself on your back for your lack .