-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Is Calvinism a False Doctrine?
- Thread starter TaliOrlando
- Start date
- Status
DHK said:From your previous extensive quote from him, quoting the many Calvinistic authors and works of Calvin one could easily read into this statement:
That by "Word of God." you actually meant works of Calvin.
Come on Roger ! That's quite a stretch of words and an expansive imagination .
TaliOrlando
New Member
Rippon said:
All, I or we, or you need .. is the word of God. If you have problems understanding the word of God by yourself, then you should pray and ask the Holy Spirit who is inside you to show you the way. At times, yes we have to speak to the Body and ask opinions, its part of fellowship.. however the Central piece is Christ and if at any point in time a teacher or pastor comes to me with a book that we have to learn from other then the Bible, I honestly will not partake in it.. call me silly but I am just being real. If a preacher says something, I am not going to just take it by his word, I will look it up in the word and ask the Holy Spirit to guide me into the truth. I hope you understand my point..
See in most Christian books all you get is that persons opinion, I dont care about that persons personal opinion.. I care about Christ opinion and this is why we as a body have to, and I repeat HAVE to.. get closer with God, have a personal relashionsip with Christ, get closer to him and I must decrease so that he may increase. keep in mind I am young in the Lord and I may be ignorant to some things but as of know this is how I view it.. :wavey:
Meanwhile, no response here. I have to wonder what that means.skypair said:Well, not in just this way. Is this how you see it? "...after the 'elect' has been "drawn" and "given" by God to Christ, then they believe." I mean, these are critical terms (drawn, given) to Calvinist sotierology, aren't they? Is there something wrong with my formulation of them?
Is there possibly in yours or my understanding of these terms a rapproachment we could reach by a common understanding of them or at least an analysis of this configuration?
skypair
skypair
TaliOrlando said:
Everyone has a matter of opinion. Just because someone systematizes a doctrine doesn't make it wrong. We can say, "All we need is the Bible," and while the Bible is sufficient and the only inspired source for doctrine, we can't avoid forming our own opinions. When you read scripture, you read it through the lens of your knowledge and experience. You may misinterpret the text as a result, but you still do it. You may also interpret it correctly.
When I read other Christians' opinions on interpretive issues, that doesn't mean that I think they are somehow more authoritative than the Bible. By no means! I try to learn from what I can because God has given his Spirit to all his children. If God has led them to discover a truth about Scripture that I don't quite understand, I see no problem in God using a Christian's writing to reach me with his truth.
That being said, I'm not a Calvinist, either. :laugh:
skypair said:Well, not in just this way. Is this how you see it? "...after the 'elect' has been "drawn" and "given" by God to Christ, then they believe." I mean, these are critical terms (drawn, given) to Calvinist sotierology, aren't they? Is there something wrong with my formulation of them?
Is there possibly in yours or my understanding of these terms a rapproachment we could reach by a common understanding of them or at least an analysis of this configuration?
skypair
Skypair, I feel like I've been spent on these issues.
I have before me a book by Octavius Winslow ( 1808-1878 ) . He was a friend and mentor of Charles Spurgeon . The book is "Personal Declension And Revival Of Religion In The Soul" . The following words are from pages 121 and 122 . He goes quite a bit more in the same vein . But all of you reading this extract will get a good idea of his thoughts on the matter .
Is there not in the present day a criminal keeping back by some , and a painful undervaluing by others , of the scriptural and holy doctrines of grace ? -- The doctrines which unfold the eternity of God's love to his people -- the sovereignty of his grace in their election -- the effectual power of the Spirit in their calling -- the free justification of their persons through the imputed righteousness of Christ , and the entire putting away of their sins by his atoning blood -- the solemn obligation to "live soberly , righteously , and godly in this present evil world ," and the certainty of their final glorification in the world to come , -- are not these Divinely-revealed truths , at the present moment , and by the great mass of Christian professors and preachers , excluded from our pulpits and exiled from our land ? are not they considered mean and unfashionable ? and , having lost their savour with the many , are they not cast out and trodden under foot of men ? We verily and solemnly believe it is so . By some they are professedly received , but criminally held back ; by others they are professedly preached , but with such timidy and obscurity , as to render them of none effect : and by the many they are disbelieved altogether , and therefore openly and boldly denied ! And yet , these are the doctrines which shine so luminously in every page of the apostle's writings , -- these are the doctrines which formed the great themes of Christ's ministration , -- and these are the doctrines , to the preaching of which by the reformers , we owe all the civil and religious liberty which , as a nation , we now possess . We hesitate not , then , to say that , along with the denial or the undervaluing of these doctrines of grace , there will go forth an influence that will wither the spirituality and obstruct the prosperity of the churches of our land . It is true , an outward appearance of fruitfulness may follow the exhibition of opposite and conflicting doctrines , -- crowds may flock to their standard , and multitudes seem converted by their influence , -- but soon these delusive appearances are seen to pass away .
Is there not in the present day a criminal keeping back by some , and a painful undervaluing by others , of the scriptural and holy doctrines of grace ? -- The doctrines which unfold the eternity of God's love to his people -- the sovereignty of his grace in their election -- the effectual power of the Spirit in their calling -- the free justification of their persons through the imputed righteousness of Christ , and the entire putting away of their sins by his atoning blood -- the solemn obligation to "live soberly , righteously , and godly in this present evil world ," and the certainty of their final glorification in the world to come , -- are not these Divinely-revealed truths , at the present moment , and by the great mass of Christian professors and preachers , excluded from our pulpits and exiled from our land ? are not they considered mean and unfashionable ? and , having lost their savour with the many , are they not cast out and trodden under foot of men ? We verily and solemnly believe it is so . By some they are professedly received , but criminally held back ; by others they are professedly preached , but with such timidy and obscurity , as to render them of none effect : and by the many they are disbelieved altogether , and therefore openly and boldly denied ! And yet , these are the doctrines which shine so luminously in every page of the apostle's writings , -- these are the doctrines which formed the great themes of Christ's ministration , -- and these are the doctrines , to the preaching of which by the reformers , we owe all the civil and religious liberty which , as a nation , we now possess . We hesitate not , then , to say that , along with the denial or the undervaluing of these doctrines of grace , there will go forth an influence that will wither the spirituality and obstruct the prosperity of the churches of our land . It is true , an outward appearance of fruitfulness may follow the exhibition of opposite and conflicting doctrines , -- crowds may flock to their standard , and multitudes seem converted by their influence , -- but soon these delusive appearances are seen to pass away .
William Newell was not a Calvinist . He affirmed many of Charles Finney's beliefs and practices . He wrote a commentary on the book of Revelation in 1935 . In the appendix ( page 381 ) he makes the following remarks though when crossing swords with "Bullingerism " ( hyper-dispensationalism ) .
George Whitefield read through Matthew Henry's Commentary twice -- on his knees ! What this shallow age needs is a long , steady acquaintance with such as Matthew Henry , and the Puritans , and Spurgeon , and Darby's "Collected Writings" -- and even with John Calvin's 51 volumes of commentaries ! But they , conceiving themselves dispensationally "beyond" these really great men of God , -- will they read these works ?
We trow not . They will , instead , be more and more occupied with the "air-tight-compartments" of the clever and heady Companion Bible , -- because it makes people think they are advancing , in their Scripture "dividing," and dispensational distinctions , in divine things , -- whether the Holy Ghost unifies in love God's saints or not ; and whether revival showers come or not !
George Whitefield read through Matthew Henry's Commentary twice -- on his knees ! What this shallow age needs is a long , steady acquaintance with such as Matthew Henry , and the Puritans , and Spurgeon , and Darby's "Collected Writings" -- and even with John Calvin's 51 volumes of commentaries ! But they , conceiving themselves dispensationally "beyond" these really great men of God , -- will they read these works ?
We trow not . They will , instead , be more and more occupied with the "air-tight-compartments" of the clever and heady Companion Bible , -- because it makes people think they are advancing , in their Scripture "dividing," and dispensational distinctions , in divine things , -- whether the Holy Ghost unifies in love God's saints or not ; and whether revival showers come or not !
From the viewpoint of a 5 pointer:
Is Arminianism a false doctrine?
Why do people feel it necessary to debate this issue over and over again? Ultimately, people don't agree with a viewpoint of scripture, so they start pointing fingers, making calls of false doctrine, false gospel etc.
It's sad. BTW, If I hear one more Arminian bring up Micheal Servetus, I am going to puke. Remember, Jacob Arminius was also a self proclaimed Calvinist. I geuss that invalidates what he taught as well.
Is Arminianism a false doctrine?
Why do people feel it necessary to debate this issue over and over again? Ultimately, people don't agree with a viewpoint of scripture, so they start pointing fingers, making calls of false doctrine, false gospel etc.
It's sad. BTW, If I hear one more Arminian bring up Micheal Servetus, I am going to puke. Remember, Jacob Arminius was also a self proclaimed Calvinist. I geuss that invalidates what he taught as well.
Havensdad said:
Welcome to the BB , HD. Were you a lurker for a long time before joining ? Debating Calvinism has been an age-old deal here . You are rather nerw to the scene . Perhaps you've been involved with the issue countless times in face-to-face encounters . Regardless , it's one of the primary subjects here .
But I am in agreement with you about "Killer-Calvin" posts .
Rippon said:
Been debating on other forums for a long time (as well as face to face.) I have actually been a member here for a while, but never posted. For the most part, I argue, er I mean debate, with people on the School of Biblical Evangelism forum. However, I was tired of debating the same old subjects, with the same people. Of course, it seems to be the same everywhere!
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: May I offer you a plastic bag? You are sure to need it. :laugh:
By the way, if the Calvinists would quit trying to alter history in the case of Calvin having Servetus burned at the stake, it might not be such a point of contention. By the way, I for one, am no Arminian.
HP: That comes as no surprise to me, seeing Arminians hold to the Augustinian dogma of original sin, although I have never read that concerning him.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
DHK said:From your previous extensive quote from him, quoting the many Calvinistic authors and works of Calvin one could easily read into this statement:
That by "Word of God." you actually meant works of Calvin.
I have to agree that the discussion so far is not going very deep at all into a close and detailed review of the Word of God.
in Christ,
Bob
Doubting Thomas
Active Member
Uh....no. :tonofbricks:Rippon said:
TaliOrlando said:
GE
I haven't read any further. And won't read any further.
What horrible rubbish! God is Judge; the last day will reveal who the murderers are, and I'm fully convinced it won't be Calvin but his sick accusers.
- Status