Heavenly Pilgrim said:
HP: You jump to conclusions not intended in the least. The topic that I referred to as possibly being boring was the discussion we might engage in following such lengthy posts, not your specific post. It would take a small book for me to go back and treat every argument addressed sufficiently that you mentioned. Instead of impugning my motives, why don’t you simply try and pick out one or two issues and try me. If we both try our best to keep our posts short and focused to a specific point or two, we will have a much better shot at keeping the ear of the listener, or at least that has been my observation at least. 
No "jumped" conclusion. Your "boring" remark was rude. Not befitting of the spirit of love that should be the norm amongst brothers and sisters in Christ. Call it hyper-sensitive if you want, but I and many others could have re-worded it in a way that wasn't personal in nature.
As far as "GE's" chiming in. The comment concerning a member's rudeness, obviously were not to do with him/her.
Although this is "off topic", the ways in which we address another are important.
You will never find a post from me that critique's another's comments in ways that demeans anothers style of writing or excess word-age.
Just saying that there was too much to read, would suffice. Other's might disagree with the comment, but it surely wouldn't be a comment that injects a personal critique of one that goes beyond the subject, at-hand to affront someone that disagrees with...certain points of Calvinism?
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Now to get back to topic. I have this problem with the "perserverence" aspect as well as some others mentioned here, as critieria that one is "saved".
There are and can be "norms" to some aspects of the Christian body, and it's behaviors, but when it comes to perserverence, that can be very subjective to the outside observer of another's life. Only God, and possibly that Christian know what goes on in the human heart.
As the Matthew account of the wilted or dieing fig tree, clearly shows; leaves on a fig tree signify ripe/ready-to-pick fruit. Sadly this tree had abundance of leaves, but lacked fruit. Jesus used that illustration to show how the Pharisees, Sadducees, and Herodians were outwardly "leafy" or showed possibly "works", or "religiosity" or "piety", but inwardly, their hearts were devoid of true mercy, justice, and empathy for others.
When it comes time for the Christian's life to be reviewed before God, many "works" will be thrown aside, while others that folks would deem insignifigant will not be discarded, but will be considered healthy "seed" planting, or "watering".
Perserverence, I believe is an important aspect of the "faith", of the trully abiding Christian that desires a closer relationship with Christ. This life will however, have times of utter frustration, and failure by the standards of the world, and many in the church.
Some of the great 18th,19th,20th century saints were besought with depression, and times where they were utterly helpless to produce that "fruit" or show any perserverence to the naked eye. No doubt many Christians thought that these times were indicative of sin, or some inherent spiritual problem with these saints.
I can't forget Paul's comments from Roman's 7, where he did what he knew wasn't right, and what was right, was so hard to do. He called himself "O wretched man that I am!", yet in the same breath, he gave tribute to God.
Paul was beset with a "thorn" that kept him in a state of "weakness". That "thorn" has been speculated upon for a long time, but suffice it to say, it kept him in a state of "dependency" upon God. In fact, a statement by Paul that followed the "thorn" was, "When I am weak, He/God is strong.". This is not unlike the famous and well used Psalms 46:10 passage, "Be still and know that I am God.", or in another translation, "
Cease striving and know that I am God.".
I think a lot of what we call perserverence or see in many Christians nowadays, is "striving" and is not initiated by the H.S., but gets "kudos" from the body of believers in general, because it looks productive, and gets something done.
So perserverence in my estimate, can be rather subjective for the outside observer to determine.
Let's just say, that it is trully God that holds us when we stray, falter, or have set-backs. It is He who promises that not one will be torn from His hand, yet, we still can be that 100th or 99th lamb that gets caught in the briars and needs a merciful shepherd to retrieve us and help us back into the sheepfold.
There are aspects of Calvinism and Arminianism that I think are biblical, so as a result, I guess I'd be in the middle camp. I'd like to think that my Christian life is one that is desirous to be "balanced".
The important thing about our walk, is to have balance in our Christian lives. Obviously, God is "black and white" about sin. There is no partial sin, or partial righteousness.
I do agree with many on this board, that John Calvin has too much influence, though the ones that follow or believe in his "take" on scripture would most likely deny that they are doing so. They have been saying that Calvin is just scriptural, and his doctrine goes before his time, or again is scriptural.
John Calvin was a man..........He was not divine, nor perfect; just as Appollos, and Paul.
Just as we are scrutinizing the current Presidential candidates at this time, and much is being said about one candidate that sat in the pews of one church under one person's teaching for 20 years, John Calvin's life should be scrutinized, as his influence upon the present-day Christian church is profound.
In many circles it is called "reformed" theology. It is not the total encompassment of Protestant reformation, but came out of it none the less.
Some folks have mentioned that bringing up John Calvin's past in respect to
alleged actions that were brutally carried out under his approval or direct mandate, are uncalled-for, or not true. If people were executed or brutally treated for disagreeing with Mr. Calvins doctrinal "take" on scripture or the Christian life, it is very important. It goes back to the "fig tree" analogy IMO.
I think that those that follow or embrace Calvin's doctrinal "take" on scripture need to address these issues of Calvin's life. What kind of "fruit" was produced in Calvin's life? Is it indicative of one who is abiding in Christ, and could be deemed a Christian in all the biblical sense or definition? Was "charity/love" uppermost in Calvin's life as a Christian? Was the Dutch reformation in respect to those that opposed Calvin's teachings a true account.
Keep in mind that the Mormon church has deemed Joseph Smith Jr.'s life a respectable, martyr's, life......Yet, J.S. Jr. was actually shot to death in Illinois while attempting an escape from a local jail, where he was being held for damaging/destroying a local newspaper's printing press. This newspaper had printed negative stories about J.S. Jr. and his group of followers. An angry mob had come to lynch him, but J.S. Jr. was givein a firearm and shot his way out of jail, and died doing it. The official Mormon church has given him a "pass" and does not discuss this documented history from Illinois, but instead has rewritten the account to present their founder/leader in a saintly light.
Some of the accounts of John Calvin's life raise some real big red flags with me. I realize that even Saul of Tarsus was a brutal, insensitive man before his conversion, but post-conversion Saul/Paul, was nothing of the sort or personality of the pre-conversion one.
John Calvin was allegedly a saved/converted/elected, man while these negative or brutal things were happening under his "green light". Shouldn't these actions be addressed, and if these actions by Calvin were true, even in part, doesn't this have some impact on his credibility to be a biblically sound influence to the present-day church as well as the earlier church?
Just as many are questioning the character and integrity of a certain presidential candidate, based on his 20 years of sitting in the pews and listening to a preacher that in my estimate is as unbiblical as can be, shouldn't Calvin's actual life as a "believer" or "elect", be scruitinized and weighed too? His influence is to large and important to receive a "bye" or "pass" concerning any aspect of his normal daily Christian life IMO.
