Is Calvinism a False Doctrine?

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

HP: Who would not be of this group? Are you suggesting that there are some that do not to be redeemed or that some do not need to be drawn?
1 Jn 1:9, "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

Gb93433: It is present tense.

HP: If we are cleansed from all sin and unrighteousness when we are born again, how many sins remain? Is it some kind of sad joke for God to tell us that He will forgive every sin and wash away every stain just to leave us in our sins? Can the believer that has confessed and forsaken his sins in repentance say with the apostle Paul. I have been made free from sin, or must he say with sad dearth, my sins remain. Christ’s blood could not separate me from my sins, for the stain of sin has gone too far for Him to save to the uttermost.

 

[DHK]

HP: If we are cleansed from all sin and unrighteousness when we are born again, how many sins remain? Is it some kind of sad joke for God to tell us that He will forgive every sin and wash away every stain just to leave us in our sins? Can the believer that has confessed and forsaken his sins in repentance say with the apostle Paul. I have been made free from sin, or must he say with sad dearth, my sins remain. Christ’s blood could not separate me from my sins, for the stain of sin has gone too far for Him to save to the uttermost.

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Are you suggesting that God made a mistake when the Holy Spirit put 1John 1:9 into the Word of God, and was simply playing a cruel joke on you, because it doesn't line up with your theology?

 

[DHK]

Psalms 66:18 If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear me:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: 1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Are you suggesting that God made a mistake when the Holy Spirit put 1John 1:9 into the Word of God, and was simply playing a cruel joke on you, because it doesn't line up with your theology?

HP: No. What is it about this verse that does not line up with my theology? Be careful with your answer. Be sure and quote me accurately in the context I spoke in.

 

[DHK]

HP: No. What is it about this verse that does not line up with my theology? Be careful with your answer. Be sure and quote me accurately in the context I spoke in.

The original context was Romans 3:23:
"For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God," with the emphasis on the "have sinned," past tense, referring to before salvation--you say. Am I right so far?
If this is true, then 1John 1:9 would be unnecessary (according to your theology) for two reasons:
1. All of our sins are under the blood and forgiven.
2. We live a sinless life, and thus the futility of having to ask forgiveness if there is no sin.

But reality tells us there is sin, even after salvation. A quick read of Romans 6 tells us that. Paul struggled with siin. He said: "the things that I do, I don't want to do; and the things I don't wan't to do, those are the things I do." Near the end of the chapter he cries out and says:
"Oh wretched man that I am who shall deliver me from the body of this death?"
And the answer?
"I thank God through Jesus Christ my Lord."
But he doesn't stop there. That is only part of the verse. Christ did not promise to give complete and total victory such that there would never be any more struggle or sin. The entire verse is:

Romans 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
--So, then with the mind I myself serve the law of God.
Here is a decision Paul has to make in regard to sin. He must choose to serve the law of God, over the law of sin. He must choose to yield himself to the Holy Spirit.
--but with the flesh the law of sin. He must choose not to give into the flesh which will result in sin. He has a choice to make. The Lord will not make that choice for him; he has to make it himself. However the Holy Spirit does dwell in him, and helps give him the power to make the decision. We are not without help. Going from chapter 7 to chapter 8 we find tremendous promises of help and victory through the Lord Jesus Christ. One good one is:

Romans 8:32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
--What a tremendous promise given to the believer. All blessings in Christ Jesus our freely ours. But he does not keep us from sin. It is a struggle that we have everyday.
When we overcome it, we have sweet fellowship with God.
When we sin, our fellowship with God is broken, but our salvation is never lost.

"There is therefore now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus."

 

[Revmitchell]

There seems to be a weird understanding of salvation as if we must confess our present sins in order to receive forgiveness. 1 John 1:9 is speaking of eternal salvation.

We do not currently enjoy our full redemption. While we are justified for that future redemption sin remains. Our redemption (salvation) is but a hope for the future (1 Peter 1:3-5) our salvation is a promise sealed by the Holy Ghost for the future. And our salvation is secured and yet on hold until that day that we are fully redeemed.

Trying to quibble over what sins are currently covered and which are not is just weird.

 

[gb93433]

HP: If we are cleansed from all sin and unrighteousness when we are born again, how many sins remain? Is it some kind of sad joke for God to tell us that He will forgive every sin and wash away every stain just to leave us in our sins? Can the believer that has confessed and forsaken his sins in repentance say with the apostle Paul. I have been made free from sin, or must he say with sad dearth, my sins remain. Christ’s blood could not separate me from my sins, for the stain of sin has gone too far for Him to save to the uttermost.

1 Jn 1:9 is a third class conditional sentence.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

gb93433: 1 Jn 1:9 is a third class conditional sentence.

HP: A WHAT??.....and why?:laugh:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

RevMitchell: There seems to be a weird understanding of salvation as if we must confess our present sins in order to receive forgiveness.

HP: I think I would coin the plain teachings of Scripture, known to the Jews of the OT as well as amplified in the NT, something other than ‘weird.’

'Unless ye repent ye shall all likewise perish.'

 

[gb93433]

HP: A WHAT??.....and why?:laugh:

Do a search at www.google.com

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Oh, thanks gb93433. When you figure out what you mean by your remarks, share it with the list and then we will have a discussion. :smilewinkgrin:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: Psalms 66:18 If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear me:

HP: An interesting verse. My question would be how can one entertain a sure hope of eternal life if God will not even hear the person?

 

[gb93433]

Oh, thanks gb93433. When you figure out what you mean by your remarks, share it with the list and then we will have a discussion. :smilewinkgrin:

Listed below are some websites which are the result of a www.google.com search

http://web2.uvcs.uvic.ca/elc/StudyZone/410/grammar/3cond.htm
http://www.ntgreek.org/learn_nt_greek/conditional_sentences.htm
http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org/egreek/egreek07.htm
http://www.bible.org/page.php?page_id=1811
http://www.chioulaoshi.org/BG/PDFs/Conditionals.pdf
http://www.ntgreek.org/pdf/conditional_sentences.pdf
http://www.prairieviewchristian.org/downloads/written/word_studies/greek/conditionalclause.pdf

 

[DHK]

HP: An interesting verse. My question would be how can one entertain a sure hope of eternal life if God will not even hear the person?

My sure hope of eternal was made sure the day that I put my trust in Jesus Christ. It is called eternal security and it can never be lost.
"There is therefore now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus."

Romans 8:38-39 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Both 1John 1:9 and Psalm 66:18 say nothing about salvation, but speak about our fellowship with God. They are written to believers, not to unbelievers. In 1John 1:9, it says "If we confess our sins..." The "we" includes the Apostle John. Was John not saved? Of course not! John was speaking of his fellowship with God. Sin would hinder it. Therefore come to God on a daily basis and confess that sin to God every day. Why? Because we all sin every day, whether or not you like to admit it. And that sin needs to be confessed to God to maintain a proper fellowship with God.

The same truth is taught by the Psalmist. Unless you are willing to confess that sin to God, He is not even willing to hear whatever prayers you have. Confession of sin comes first. God desires your fellowship. Sin separates you from God. If you are a believer you will not lose your salvation; only your fellowship.

Isaiah 59:2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: My sure hope of eternal was made sure the day that I put my trust in Jesus Christ. It is called eternal security and it can never be lost.
"There is therefore now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus."

HP: To use the first portion of this verse as a proof text without noting the qualifying of the first half of the verse with the last part of the verse is a misuse of Scripture. The last half, that qualifies the first half, states, “who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit.”

 

[DHK]

HP: To use the first portion of this verse as a proof text without noting the qualifying of the first half of the verse with the last part of the verse is a misuse of Scripture. The last half, that qualifies the first half, states, “who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit.”

Not necessarily.
First, the second half of the verse is not found in all translations.
Second, assuming that we do use the KJV, it is not a qualifier. They are characteristics of believers not qualifiers. Believers are those who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit. That is characteristic of a believer. It is not a qualification to be a believer.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: Not necessarily.
First, the second half of the verse is not found in all translations.

HP: You are correct in that it is not found in corrupt texts. Modern translations often use the corrupted Wescott-Hort text which has literally hundreds if not thousands of omissions, some minute and others as we witness here. That is most likely why this text was discarded and found in such great shape, because it was not used as others were.

DHK: Second, assuming that we do use the KJV, it is not a qualifier. They are characteristics of believers not qualifiers. Believers are those who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit. That is characteristic of a believer. It is not a qualification to be a believer.

HP: I was drawing attention of the clarifier being related to that of ‘condemnation’ in the believers life. I would agree with you that this verse is not drawing a distinction between the saved and the unsaved. When a believer falls into sin by failing to walk in the Spirit, there is condemnation. “As we walk in the light as He is in the light, the blood of Christ cleaneth us from all sin.” Again, our cleansing, our freedom from condemnation comes as we are found to be walking in the light of the Spirit.

 

[DHK]

HP: I was drawing attention of the clarifier being related to that of ‘condemnation’ in the believers life. I would agree with you that this verse is not drawing a distinction between the saved and the unsaved. When a believer falls into sin by failing to walk in the Spirit, there is condemnation. “As we walk in the light as He is in the light, the blood of Christ cleaneth us from all sin.” Again, our cleansing, our freedom from condemnation comes as we are found to be walking in the light of the Spirit.

First,

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus,

--The first half of the verse teaches that there is no condemnation to any believer. His sins are paid for; they are under the blood. He can never lose his salvation, no matter what sin he may commit. His salvation is secure in the hand of God. There is no condemnation, eternally, to any believer.

who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

This, again, is not a qualifier, but a characteristic of the believer. The believer, who can never be eternally condemned (for his sins are all under the blood), is the same believer who will walk after the Spirit. The Spirit now dwells within him. He will change. His life will not be perfect. But gradually his life will change to be conformed to be as the image of Christ. And that is the reason that he will not walk after the flesh. These are not qulifers, but characteristics. Even if a person does fail, and happens to walk after the flesh for a time, there is forgiveness found with the Lord, and Christ becomes our advocate.

1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

 

[gb93433]

HP: You are correct in that it is not found in corrupt texts. Modern translations often use the corrupted Wescott-Hort text which has literally hundreds if not thousands of omissions, some minute and others as we witness here. That is most likely why this text was discarded and found in such great shape, because it was not used as others were.

What translations today used the texts of Wescott Hort?

Do you mean the earliest texts of the fifth century of the longer reading or the even earlier texts of the shorter reading is the better text? Are you saying that the longer reading that does not exist in the earlier texts is the better text?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Gb93433: What translations today used the texts of Wescott Hort?

HP: Try Google.