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Is Calvinism a False Doctrine?
- Thread starter TaliOrlando
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I know of none today that is the reason I asked. Certainly if your statement has any crebility you could easily document your sources.Heavenly Pilgrim said:
HP: Try Google.
You failed to answer, "Do you mean the earliest texts of the fifth century of the longer reading or the even earlier texts of the shorter reading is the better text? Are you saying that the longer reading that does not exist in the earlier texts is the better text?"
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To Keep everyone up-to-date regarding the original question of the OP -- No , Calvinism is not a false doctrine . First of all , it doesn't involve a sole doctrine -- we Calvinists are full-orbed . We believe in the whole counsel of the Word of God . Therefore , we Calvinists believe all that is taught in the Bible -- so those doctrines can't be false since they are biblical !
Some like Spurgeon have said that Calvinism is the Gospel . However , I would go further than the beloved CHS . The term Calvinism incorporates all that the Scripture teaches .Some call Calvinism Predestinarianism . It does have a major focus on that I do concede . The primary thing we are noted for is our emphasis on God's sovereignty .
A lot of wasted type has been made concerning things that Calvinism really does not teach . But our detractors would rather repeat untruths than state what we actually hold .
The robot theme crops up time and time again from not so original thinkers . So-called Irresistable Grace and Limited Atonement are taken to task and mistruths are regularly foisted upon those biblical truths .
The idol of 'Free Will' is a cardinal doctrine clung to tenaciously by non-Cals ( and the unregenerate world also BTW ). They wish to equate it with Man's responsibility which is silly in the extreme .
As long as those who despise what Calvinists believe there will be lies spread about us . The important thing to remember is that we believe every doctrine of the Bible . We compare Scripture with Scripture . We call no man Father except God Himself .
We are not supposed to be burdened with souls according to our foes . But a mere look at Church History proves them terribly wrong .
There is so much more to add --- but alas I have to go now . I'll be back -- on another thread perhaps with more .
Some like Spurgeon have said that Calvinism is the Gospel . However , I would go further than the beloved CHS . The term Calvinism incorporates all that the Scripture teaches .Some call Calvinism Predestinarianism . It does have a major focus on that I do concede . The primary thing we are noted for is our emphasis on God's sovereignty .
A lot of wasted type has been made concerning things that Calvinism really does not teach . But our detractors would rather repeat untruths than state what we actually hold .
The robot theme crops up time and time again from not so original thinkers . So-called Irresistable Grace and Limited Atonement are taken to task and mistruths are regularly foisted upon those biblical truths .
The idol of 'Free Will' is a cardinal doctrine clung to tenaciously by non-Cals ( and the unregenerate world also BTW ). They wish to equate it with Man's responsibility which is silly in the extreme .
As long as those who despise what Calvinists believe there will be lies spread about us . The important thing to remember is that we believe every doctrine of the Bible . We compare Scripture with Scripture . We call no man Father except God Himself .
We are not supposed to be burdened with souls according to our foes . But a mere look at Church History proves them terribly wrong .
There is so much more to add --- but alas I have to go now . I'll be back -- on another thread perhaps with more .
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: Let me help you sleep tonight Rippon. Most I have run across on this list that say they believe in a free will would coin their belief as follows: “Freedom to do as one wills.”
In actuality there is not a shred of freedom in such a belief for the relationship that is sustained between the will and the doing is one of necessity instead of freedom. One can only do as they will. Freedom, if it exists at all, must be in the actual formation of the intents, a matter most seem willing to deny. In essence, the free will they speak of is not free at all.
So Rest In Peace Rip.
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If "free will" is a term that bothers you, perhaps it is better worded "freedom of choice" a term that is a bit more accurate, and one thing that every man does have:Heavenly Pilgrim said:HP: Let me help you sleep tonight Rippon. Most I have run across on this list that say they believe in a free will would coin their belief as follows: “Freedom to do as one wills.”
In actuality there is not a shred of freedom in such a belief for the relationship that is sustained between the will and the doing is one of necessity instead of freedom. One can only do as they will. Freedom, if it exists at all, must be in the actual formation of the intents, a matter most seem willing to deny. In essence, the free will they speak of is not free at all.
So Rest In Peace Rip.
John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
The verse teaches that man is free to believe or not to believe. And the consequences of that choice are eternal.
...not according to some on this thread's last couple pages...gb93433 said:
http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=32166&page=12
:BangHead:
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
It is a false assumption to believe that this verse supports the idea of ‘the damning sin being the rejection of Christ.’ The first thing is that rejection of Christ is not even mentioned in this verse, but rather only that one has not believed. One that has never even heard has not believed and is condemned, not for rejecting one they have not heard of, but rather for their sins.
It is a false assumption to believe that this verse supports the idea of ‘the damning sin being the rejection of Christ.’ The first thing is that rejection of Christ is not even mentioned in this verse, but rather only that one has not believed. One that has never even heard has not believed and is condemned, not for rejecting one they have not heard of, but rather for their sins.
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Either you believe the Bible or you don't. Apparently you don't. It is clouded by your own pre-conceived ideas. As soon as you read a clearly worded statement by Christ Himself you act like an agnostic and doubt it, by raising questions in your mind saying: "But what about....."Heavenly Pilgrim said:
You cannot take, by faith, the words of Christ. I find that pitiful. You reject the words of Christ on the basis of your own pre-conceived ideas, and the fact that you believe God is not powerful enough to overcome the problems that you pose.
Here is another verse that states essentially the same thing but in a more positive way:
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Either what Jesus said here is true (that He is the only way to Heaven, and that there is no other way) or he is the biggest liar, fraud, and fake that ever walked the face of this earth. Take your choice. Who is Christ? Is He the Way, the Truth, the Life, and the only way to Heaven, or is he a liar and a fake. The choice is yours. Who do you say that Christ is?
If Christ's words are true, then He is deity, and the only Way to Heaven. There is no other way to Heaven, not for the heathen "that you say have never heard the gospel," not for the Muslims, not for the Hindus, not for the Buddhists, not for any pagans anywhere in this world. Jesus is the only way to Heaven. Are you prepared to accept this statement as true?
Or do you accept Jesus as a liar?
If you accept Jesus as truth, then the logical consequence is that he must be the only way for the heathen that you say have not heard. Why do you doubt the power of God in things that you cannot understand?
Nowhere in the Bible does it teach that your sins, per se, will send you to hell. It is the rejection of Jesus Christ that will send you to hell. It is not our sin, but the penalty of our sin that would have sent us to hell. But Christ paid the penalty of that sin. That leaves only one of two choices: receive the payment that Christ paid (the gift of God is eternal life), or reject the payment that Christ made (the wages of sin is death--eternal death or separation from God for all eternity).Heavenly Pilgrim said:
DHK said:
The sins of the unregenerate send them to Hell . Hell is the penalty for those sins .
You are confused . Christ did not pay the penalty for those who go to Hell . The Lord is not unjust . He does not pay the penalty for reprobates , and then appoints them to Hell to pay the penalty ! Two penalties for paying for the same sins of a sinner ?!
I am not confused. My Bible says differently than your theology.Rippon said:
1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
The Bible teaches that Christ paid the penalty for the sins of the whole world. It is not simply my teaching. It is the teaching of the Word of God.
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: I hope the list is sitting up paying attention.
HP: You have not provided one solitary Scripture that states or implies that the damning sin is the rejection of Christ. Certainly for one to hear and reject the gospel would be a sin to do so, but there is no indication in scripture nor reason that all have heard the gospel message. That is simply unfounded conjecture, conjecture BR has repeated over and over without any substance.
It is simply double talk for you to say that “It is not our sin, but the penalty of our sin that would have sent us to hell.” Why would there be a penalty if the sin was not the cause??
HP: Not so, for your ‘only options’ merely beg the question of the nature of the atonement, as being that of a literal payment, and to beg the question of whether or not all have indeed heard ’the gospel.’
“Isa 59:2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.”
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
HP: Between what two words or lines is the rejection of Jesus Christ mentioned or implied? Certainly all are sinners, and as a sinner they have not believed to the saving of their soul. If they had, they would be in possession of the hope of eternal life. It simply makes a point that IF they have not believed, they are all condemned and will be until they hear and accept the gospel message and its stated conditions.
This verse in NO way supports the Calvinistic notion that the damning sin is the rejection of Jesus Christ as some would try and hoodwink us into believing.
HP: Between what two words or lines is the rejection of Jesus Christ mentioned or implied? Certainly all are sinners, and as a sinner they have not believed to the saving of their soul. If they had, they would be in possession of the hope of eternal life. It simply makes a point that IF they have not believed, they are all condemned and will be until they hear and accept the gospel message and its stated conditions.
This verse in NO way supports the Calvinistic notion that the damning sin is the rejection of Jesus Christ as some would try and hoodwink us into believing.
He that believeth not is condemned already.Heavenly Pilgrim said:
What part of that verse do you not understand? What part do you not understand to refer to the rejection of Christ?
because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten son of God.
--What part of that verse gives you any doubt that the object of our belief or faith is not Jesus Christ?
And BTW, as I have repeated many times before, I am not a Calvinist.
Whether we are saved or lost, we still sin. Maybe when saved we sin less, and our lives change as we grow in Christ, but we are also sinning from a fundamentally different source or orientation between a lost individual and a Christian.
First of all, the sinner is dead spiritually by "nature" or "identity". They are from the loins of Adam and Eve. They can't escape that fact.........None of us can escape the fact that we were born of spiritually dead ancestors right up to Mom and Dad. Our race or species would surely die the day our great, great, great, great grand parents ate of that forbidden tree.
So God in eternity past, already had a plan of salvation. He would present the human race with a "new adam (Romans)" in Jesus Christ. Now, when us spiritually dead to God and alive to sin and satan creatures place our faith in Christ as our salvation and or propitiation for our sinful lives, or sinful nature........God makes us into new creatures/creations in Christ Jesus, via the entrance of the H.S. into our spiritually-dead souls. Now, we are called born-again or born from above, saved, etc..... Just as Jesus tried to convey to the Pharisee, Nicodemus. Not of water, but Spiritually. Not of a human birth canal, but internally via our Creator's work of introducing into our souls His Spirit of life, love, forgiveness, reconciliation, peace, joy........etc...
We who are saved now have a new identity. We belong to a new race who's origin starts in the new Adam, Christ Himself. We have now entered into his crucified, buried, resurrected, and ascended into the heavenlies-life( Gal. 2:20), and no longer are spiritually connected with Adam and Eve. We are only fleshly connected to the old Adam and Eve, and that flesh is sin's one and only opportunity to work on us Christians. We now have a choice to sin or not to sin, but our lives are secure Spiritually, whether we are a goodie-two-shoes Christian, or we wander like the Prodigal. Obviously, God wants us to abide in Him and not the world, and all the pull that works through our sense/flesh.
Living proof that sin still abounds and is going to be a constant struggle for believers is Paul's very explanation in Roman's 7. The things he knows to do (Spiritually), and the things he ends up doing(fleshly) are a constant battle with little reprieves at times, but never really abating.
Now we have a choice..........Before salvation we were slaves. We may at times feel like slaves to sin even though we are saved, but that is power of sin working or accessing us through our unredeemed flesh. One day we will shed that "earth suit" and sin will no longer pound and pull on us. For the time being, the flesh/Spirit battle is designed to make us more Christlike as we progress along in our Christian life. It humbles us, and keeps us from developing a haughty attitude towards others. I.E.. it keeps us in a "foot washing" mentality.
*********
Once the H.S. has come to reside in the person, it is His residence. Now we Christians must allow Him ascendency day to day in our lives. The Flesh will say otherwise, and fight that ascendency, but we aren new creatures/creations by the work of God. God has made us what we are............He has proclaimed us "just" or "righteous" because or through His Son's life, as we have entered into it. We actually have entered into Christ's eternally past, present, and future life via the cross.
We did indeed leave something behind at the cross. When we were co-crucified, co-buried, co-raised, co-glorified in Christ (Romans 6:10), we left behind in the ground, our old sinful nature, or Old Man, or dead spirit, and received Christ's Spirit.
We do not sin nowadays as Christians because we are fighting the Old Man, and the New Man or Christ's life/Spirit........We are not walking Schizoids with two natures to contend with. As Paul succinctly said, it is the flesh that wars against the Spirit, not Adam's dead spirit versus the Holy Spirit.
We have old programming that has nothing to do with our old, long-gone spirit in Adam. It's mental programming from living a constant fleshly life as dead to Christ/God and alive to the world. Roman's 12:1 etc. explains the process to live out our new identity in Christ. Renew, our minds! Place in the hard-drive the Truth, and let it purge the old lies from the past, that are based on an earthly, lost, and spiritually dead life to God.
God looks at us as new creations, as He now indwells us via His Spirit. We are now abiding in the vine (John), we will be pruned and it will be painful, but we will not be separated from the new root-stalk.
First of all, the sinner is dead spiritually by "nature" or "identity". They are from the loins of Adam and Eve. They can't escape that fact.........None of us can escape the fact that we were born of spiritually dead ancestors right up to Mom and Dad. Our race or species would surely die the day our great, great, great, great grand parents ate of that forbidden tree.
So God in eternity past, already had a plan of salvation. He would present the human race with a "new adam (Romans)" in Jesus Christ. Now, when us spiritually dead to God and alive to sin and satan creatures place our faith in Christ as our salvation and or propitiation for our sinful lives, or sinful nature........God makes us into new creatures/creations in Christ Jesus, via the entrance of the H.S. into our spiritually-dead souls. Now, we are called born-again or born from above, saved, etc..... Just as Jesus tried to convey to the Pharisee, Nicodemus. Not of water, but Spiritually. Not of a human birth canal, but internally via our Creator's work of introducing into our souls His Spirit of life, love, forgiveness, reconciliation, peace, joy........etc...
We who are saved now have a new identity. We belong to a new race who's origin starts in the new Adam, Christ Himself. We have now entered into his crucified, buried, resurrected, and ascended into the heavenlies-life( Gal. 2:20), and no longer are spiritually connected with Adam and Eve. We are only fleshly connected to the old Adam and Eve, and that flesh is sin's one and only opportunity to work on us Christians. We now have a choice to sin or not to sin, but our lives are secure Spiritually, whether we are a goodie-two-shoes Christian, or we wander like the Prodigal. Obviously, God wants us to abide in Him and not the world, and all the pull that works through our sense/flesh.
Living proof that sin still abounds and is going to be a constant struggle for believers is Paul's very explanation in Roman's 7. The things he knows to do (Spiritually), and the things he ends up doing(fleshly) are a constant battle with little reprieves at times, but never really abating.
Now we have a choice..........Before salvation we were slaves. We may at times feel like slaves to sin even though we are saved, but that is power of sin working or accessing us through our unredeemed flesh. One day we will shed that "earth suit" and sin will no longer pound and pull on us. For the time being, the flesh/Spirit battle is designed to make us more Christlike as we progress along in our Christian life. It humbles us, and keeps us from developing a haughty attitude towards others. I.E.. it keeps us in a "foot washing" mentality.
*********
Once the H.S. has come to reside in the person, it is His residence. Now we Christians must allow Him ascendency day to day in our lives. The Flesh will say otherwise, and fight that ascendency, but we aren new creatures/creations by the work of God. God has made us what we are............He has proclaimed us "just" or "righteous" because or through His Son's life, as we have entered into it. We actually have entered into Christ's eternally past, present, and future life via the cross.
We did indeed leave something behind at the cross. When we were co-crucified, co-buried, co-raised, co-glorified in Christ (Romans 6:10), we left behind in the ground, our old sinful nature, or Old Man, or dead spirit, and received Christ's Spirit.
We do not sin nowadays as Christians because we are fighting the Old Man, and the New Man or Christ's life/Spirit........We are not walking Schizoids with two natures to contend with. As Paul succinctly said, it is the flesh that wars against the Spirit, not Adam's dead spirit versus the Holy Spirit.
We have old programming that has nothing to do with our old, long-gone spirit in Adam. It's mental programming from living a constant fleshly life as dead to Christ/God and alive to the world. Roman's 12:1 etc. explains the process to live out our new identity in Christ. Renew, our minds! Place in the hard-drive the Truth, and let it purge the old lies from the past, that are based on an earthly, lost, and spiritually dead life to God.
God looks at us as new creations, as He now indwells us via His Spirit. We are now abiding in the vine (John), we will be pruned and it will be painful, but we will not be separated from the new root-stalk.
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP:Let me ask you a question. If one had not heard of Jesus Christ and the gospel, could it be rightfully stated that such a one 'has not believed' yet is 'condemned already because as a sinner 'they have not believed'? When the words 'believeth not' are used, does that necessitate the presupposition that 'all have had an opportunity to hear and respond to the gospel and as such have rejected the invitation,' or could it rightfully be said that those that have not heard also have not believed, up until that point at least, as well?
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