Is calvinism devilish doctrine?

[webdog]

Something Christian scientist J.P Moreland said once stuck with me. "If the materialists are right (speaking about the evolutionary view of physicalism), kiss free will goodbye. In their view, we're just very complicated computers that behave according to the laws of nature and the programming we receive."
This sounds awfully like calvinism to me...as they are almost parallel in nature in regards to the human understanding of consciousness. Since I don't believe in evolution, I can see some dangerous ideas stemming from calvinism. Since both sides are not correct in the mechanics...isn't it fair to assume satan has influenced at least one (and I'm not saying I know I'm right, so don't attack me on that)?

 

[StefanM]

Something Christian scientist J.P Moreland said once stuck with me. "If the materialists are right (speaking about the evolutionary view of physicalism), kiss free will goodbye. In their view, we're just very complicated computers that behave according to the laws of nature and the programming we receive."
This sounds awfully like calvinism to me...as they are almost parallel in nature in regards to the human understanding of consciousness. Since I don't believe in evolution, I can see some dangerous ideas stemming from calvinism. Since both sides are not correct in the mechanics...isn't it fair to assume satan has influenced at least one (and I'm not saying I know I'm right, so don't attack me on that)?

Both I and the devil believe that God exists. That we share this belief doesn't redeem him or damage me.

Evolution may be in error, but that has no real bearing on determinism. A deterministic outlook is compatible with both creationism and evolutionism.

 

[webdog]

Both I and the devil believe that God exists. That we share this belief doesn't redeem him or damage me.

Evolution may be in error, but that has no real bearing on determinism. A deterministic outlook is compatible with both creationism and evolutionism.

Materialism is determinism. A cloud is completely governed by the laws of air pressure, wind, etc. Calvinism insinuates the "non elect" are governed by the sin nature in the same manner, which would not necessitate a consciousness on the part of the "non elect". That's materialism in design.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Materialism is determinism. A cloud is completely governed by the laws of air pressure, wind, etc. Calvinism insinuates the "non elect" are governed by the sin nature in the same manner, which would not necessitate a consciousness on the part of the "non elect". That's materialism in design.

Having been a "calvinist" for several years, I have not came accross this idea. Except if you are just simply saying calvinism is equal to determinism. At any rate, I assume you came to this conclusion from some reputable calvinist (i.e. Warfield, Calvin, et.) or one of the creeds or catechisms. Can you share what you read/heard that has given you this impression?

 

[Dale-c]

For all you concerned Calvs out there... twas I. Now you can pray for me... or consider my actions predetermined.... either way.

Dale-c: You have permission to use my name with my posts if you so desire. No harm, no foul.

Thanks, though I had to be careful since there are BB rules that apply, specifically I could not use your name in a thread title.
You seem to be kind enough in tone but I am seriously wondering why you think of the doctrine as devilish?

By the way, I for one do not take offense at someone considering a non-Biblical view of salvation as devilish.
However, I don't see this as being unBiblical.

So, let me know what you think and I will try to respond.

Thanks,
God bless.

 

[HankD]

Why I am not a "Calvin(ist)":

First because of the strife I have seen it cause everywhere it goes.

1 Corinthians 1

10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.
11 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.
12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?​

1 Corinthians 3
3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?
5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?
6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.​

Nothing has changed: Substiture Apollos with Calvin in these passages.​

Granted it's not so much Calvin(ism) as it is Calvin(ists).​

Devilish is the wrong word, carnality on the part of the "Calvin(ists)" is a better way of expressing what is wrong with "Calvin(ism)".​

Secondly and Personally, I prefer not to be spiritually identified with any other human being other than Jesus Christ. I am sure that is the true of most calvinists as well and therefore (IMO) they should drop the name (calvin) part.​

Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.​

HankD​

 

[Dale-c]

First because of the strife I have seen it cause everywhere it goes.

True Christianity can and will cause division with unbelievers so that is not a valid point.

Secondly and Personally, I prefer not to be spiritually identified with any other human being other than Jesus Christ. I am sure that is the true of most calvinists as well and therefore (IMO) they should drop the name (calvin) part.

This is a good point. I don't mind the term calvinism because it is an easy to use nickname.
I do try to never capitalize it though. The reason is so that it is a generic term rather than being overly associated with John Calvin.
It is kind of like our milk. It is all pasteurized and yet no one ever even thinks of Louis Pasteur when they buy a gallon.

Many also refuse the term altogether yet they believe the doctrines.
I don't care. I believe we are so far removed from calvin that it doesn't appear that we are following a man. Now if we were called McArthurists that would be different.

 

[Jarthur001]

Why I am not a "Calvin(ist)":

First because of the strife I have seen it cause everywhere it goes.

1 Corinthians 1

10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.
11 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.
12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?​

1 Corinthians 3
3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?
5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?
6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.​

Nothing has changed: Substiture Apollos with Calvin in these passages.​

Granted it's not so much Calvin(ism) as it is Calvin(ists).​

Devilish is the wrong word, carnality on the part of the "Calvin(ists)" is a better way of expressing what is wrong with "Calvin(ism)".​

Secondly and Personally, I prefer not to be spiritually identified with any other human being other than Jesus Christ. I am sure that is the true of most calvinists as well and therefore (IMO) they should drop the name (calvin) part.​

Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.​

HankD​

Why I'm not a Free willer,

First because of the strife I have seen it cause everywhere it goes.

People deny Gods power in Free-willism. The weak preaching that comes with free willism causes churches to split. Free willism always leads to a focus on man and not God. The preacher is often worshipped over the power of Holy Spirit. It is not the truth of the Bible. If only all world follow the gospel.

The seeker church movement is mainly free-willism. This is spitting the Church. KJVonly is very anti Calvinist and is splitting the church. Hylesism is very free-willist and is also nearly a cult.

1 Corinthians 1

10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.
11 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.
12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?​

Apollos, Hyles, KJV, Seeker Friendly Nothing has changed from the verses above.

Devilish is the wrong word. More man centered ....or world centered is more like it.

Would to God we all focused on God and not man.

Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved

 

[StefanM]

Materialism is determinism. A cloud is completely governed by the laws of air pressure, wind, etc. Calvinism insinuates the "non elect" are governed by the sin nature in the same manner, which would not necessitate a consciousness on the part of the "non elect". That's materialism in design.

Do you believe that the unsaved can, by virtue of their own inherent power, seek God?

 

[Bro. Williams]

Thanks, though I had to be careful since there are BB rules that apply, specifically I could not use your name in a thread title.

I understand completely. I have started threads in response to certain things said as well. I wanted to 1) give you permission and 2) stand behind what I said, and not cower in the labrynth of threads.

You seem to be kind enough in tone but I am seriously wondering why you think of the doctrine as devilish?
By the way, I for one do not take offense at someone considering a non-Biblical view of salvation as devilish.
However, I don't see this as being unBiblical.

So, let me know what you think and I will try to respond.

Thanks,
God bless.

I am as all men, kind at times, not at others, this is to my shame. Honestly, you pretty much summed up my answer, I believe anything unBiblical is devilish. Specifically concerning the doctrines of Calvin, that is where I stand. My arguments are the same of most others that oppose calvinism, and it would be a rerun for me to quote a thesis on my stance in specific, but I did want to respond in light of your response and to let you know in a general sense why I state my stance as I do.

Please note this, as hard as I stand against calvinism, I do the same against other things I believe the Bible shows are unBiblical (place here anything that would put me in the "legalist" category). At the same time, if the brethren who are embracing these doctrines are indeed brethren, as the majority on here claim to be, then that is what they are and I will separate myself from what we disagree on but still accept them as brethren. I believe it is the same for most in the opposite sense as well.

Hope this helps clarify.

 

[jtwanabe]

Is Calvinism A Devilish Doctrine

I have a been a Christian for over 30 years. That He chose me before the foundations of the world Ephesians Ch1 is the most haunting and motivating truth. I love him because He first loved me.

I have long since quit believing that a group of organic molecules could form a human being given enough time. Accordingly I have also, by his word, long since given upon the idea that given enough light or circumstance I, who am dead in trespasses and sins could choose God.

Even before the fall in that rarified atmosphere of the garden. When man was a living soul and had not known sin he could not muster enough free will to obey God. How on earth could he possibly hope to now that he is born "a slave to sin". I believe in the doctrines of Grace because one: it is heavily supported in his word and two: because it makes the scriptures make sense.

Jud 1:24-25 Now to Him being able to keep you without stumbling, and to set you before His glory without blemish, with unspeakable joy; 25) to the only wise God, our Savior, be glory and majesty and might and authority, even now and forever. Amen.[/I]

RM

 

[Dale-c]

because it makes the scriptures make sense.

Exactly! So many people either give up or defend free willism with the idea that it is too much for us to understand.
While there is way more to the ways of God than we can understand, we can know and understand a lot more than some would have us believe.

 

[JustChristian]

I look in the Bible and find support for Calvinism. I look in other places and find support fot man's free will. Essentially, Calvinists choose to only look at those passages of scripture that support their position. Free will supporters do the same.

I personally believe that the true gospel message is very simple but very difficult to put into practice. Christ taght that we must accept Him as Lord and Savior and to pick up our cross and follow Him. Him insisted that we must be born again. That means a complete change in our lives through repentance from our sins. The rich young ruler was unwilling to give up the lordship of his money for the Lordship of Jesus Christ. Sadly, he went away bound for Hell. Anyone who rejects the necessity of producing fruit as a sincere Christian is playing with fire, literally.

I agree with the comment about Paul and Apollos. I don't follow either one (or John Calvin for that matter). I follow my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

:flower:

I look in the Bible and find support for Calvinism. I look in other places and find support fot man's free will. Essentially, Calvinists choose to only look at those passages of scripture that support their position. Free will supporters do the same.

I personally believe that the true gospel message is very simple but very difficult to put into practice. Christ taght that we must accept Him as Lord and Savior and to pick up our cross and follow Him. Him insisted that we must be born again. That means a complete change in our lives through repentance from our sins. The rich young ruler was unwilling to give up the lordship of his money for the Lordship of Jesus Christ. Sadly, he went away bound for Hell. Anyone who rejects the necessity of producing fruit as a sincere Christian is playing with fire, literally.

I agree with the comment about Paul and Apollos. I don't follow either one (or John Calvin for that matter). I follow my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.

I follow the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ too...and I am a calvinist as they call it.

 

[av1611jim]

This was posted concerning calvinism and so called "reformed Catholics"

The idea was that sermonaudio.com is full of devilish calvinistic and "reformed catholic" doctrine.

Well, I do not believe that it is devilish doctrine but I will say this:
I would rather believe in the reformed (Biblical) doctrine of calvinism that the UNreformed Roman Catholic doctrine of free will.

yes. Calvinism is devilish.:tongue3:

 

[ReformedBaptist]

yes. Calvinism is devilish.:tongue3:

Your joking right. Is "Salvation is of the Lord" devilish, because that is my Calvinism in short.

 

[Amy.G]

yes. Calvinism is devilish.:tongue3:

This coming from someone who believes God's children spend 1000 years in hell.

 

[J.D.]

This was posted concerning calvinism and so called "reformed Catholics"

The idea was that sermonaudio.com is full of devilish calvinistic and "reformed catholic" doctrine.

Well, I do not believe that it is devilish doctrine but I will say this:
I would rather believe in the reformed (Biblical) doctrine of calvinism that the UNreformed Roman Catholic doctrine of free will.

I was told for years that "CALVINISM IS OBTHEDEBIL!!". Thank God, it didn't stick.

The closest thing I've seen to Catholicism among Baptists is those who pratice the Baptist Sacrements for salvation (say this prayer, repeat after me, walk the aisle, come to the altar, if you really mean it shake my hand, etc.) and those that believe in purgatory.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

I was told for years that "CALVINISM IS OBTHEDEBIL!!". Thank God, it didn't stick.

The closest thing I've seen to Catholicism among Baptists is those who pratice the Baptist Sacrements for salvation (say this prayer, repeat after me, walk the aisle, come to the altar, if you really mean it shake my hand, etc.) and those that believe in purgatory.

A baptist believing in purgatory? Say it aint so....

 

[npetreley]

I was told for years that "CALVINISM IS OBTHEDEBIL!!". Thank God, it didn't stick.

The closest thing I've seen to Catholicism among Baptists is those who pratice the Baptist Sacrements for salvation (say this prayer, repeat after me, walk the aisle, come to the altar, if you really mean it shake my hand, etc.) and those that believe in purgatory.

I never heard it put that way before (the part about scaraments for salvation). It would be funnier if I hadn't seen it practiced for real. I also could have gone through my whole life without learning about the Baptist purgatory. Too late now, I guess.