You can't be a "four-pointer" and be considered a Calvinist. It just doesn't work like that.
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Is Calvinism "mainly" a Sotierology System Of Theology?
- Thread starter JesusFan
- Start date
Cheap shot!
Old Union Brother
New Member
And a hearty amen!
Unfortunately P4T, our Brother JF continuously goes silent when I suggest that he needs to reevaluate his sticking points. Historically, he needs to go back to the "Cannons of the Synod of Dort" because there he will find the classical summation of the 5 doctrines of grace & there he will find an early definition of TULIP. I have long argued however that these are not the wisest or the most accurate ways of speaking about doctrines & they serve as a sticking point to many. Better to study the more accurate descriptions
1. Total depravity should be Radical Depravity.
2. Limited atonement should be Particular Redemption.
3. Irresistible Grace should be Efficacious Grace
4. Perseverance of the saints should be Preserving Grace.
Once you really study them all completely & link each to scripture you will find that they did not emerge late in church history, but you will discover the origins in the teachings of Christ, which has been preserved throughout the church in many periods, and which has always been characteristic of the church at its greatest periods of faith and expansion.
I will again recommend James Montgomery Boice's book "The Doctrines Of Grace" for strong schooling of DOG understanding. You can even buy it as a paperback. :thumbs:
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glfredrick
New Member
Might be one of your best posts ever! Keep up the good work!
Tom Butler
New Member
A few years ago, Dr. Timothy George wrote a book, Amazing Grace; God's Pursuit, Our Response.
In it, he proposed the following acrostic;
R Radical Depravity
O Overcoming Grace
S Sovereign Election
E Eternal Life
S Singular Redemption.
Some have described this as "soft Calvinism." But Dr. George has described himself as Reformed, and has served at one time on the board of Founders Ministries.
Question...
I am NOT closed to the idea of all points of DoG, just see it as being unlimited in atoning value, but just effectual to those Elected by God to receive it!
IF did find way to being a "5 pointer" is Ruiz right that one needs to take ALL of Cal, as in eschatology/church govt etc to be a Cal?
Hardly, its a fact based on Jerome's post and the dialogue on this very thread. Most claim to be 4 pointers, but 4 pointers are not real calvinists, yada yada. Put your big boy shorts on and dont take it personal
Everyone is entitled to their opinion but no you do not need to be a Covenant Theology believer....however Doctrines of Grace are another story. We all Believe that the blood of Christ is sufficient for all but efficient for the elect.
Just remember, true Calvinism views everything from the absolute sovereignty of God
To my understanding, the distinction between CAls and arms/non Cals would fall more under Election...
How does God determine just whom are part of the saved, what is the very basis of His election?
IF one holds to it being due SOELY based upon His Will and based upon him saving us, CAlvinist
IF one holds that he elects and chooses based upon our choice/our free will responses Arms/Non calls
Am I wrong in viewing this as the MAIN distinction between 2 camps?
While it is good to ask questions...you should read more first as EWF and others have suggested. Your questions show you have not researched this issue enough to understand it.
Second hand responses do not give you knowledge of the issue. You can only parrot them back without being able to defend the position , which leads to inconsistency, .... You cannot defend what you do not understand....
I think the main question that STILL has not been answered though is IF calvinism is SOLELY that theology held by reformed baptists, or can it indeed by held by those NOT reformed, baptists holding to DoG to explain Sotierology?
Sometimes your questions, like the above, are confusing. I think you're unnecessarily conflating reformed theology and calvinism in a manner which does service to neither.
There are those who hold that God saves as calvinism states in DoG, but also hold to eschatology different than say a reformed church does!
Repeat after me: You can't be a Calvinist and be dispensational. It doesn't work that way.
Seriously. You can't hold to the "Doctrine of Grace" (whatever that means) and be thoroughly, historically, coherently, theologically and be dispensational.
Now if you've made a mutt of your theological constructs and slapped together whatever works then, well, you've got a mutt. It might be nice and even keep you warm at night, but its still a mutt and not a pure system.
There are no "4-point" Calvinists. They don't exist. If you claim Calvin in your theology you have to claim him all. Calvin wasn't anything less than the five points which accurately frame his theology.
Seriously. You can't hold to the "Doctrine of Grace" (whatever that means) and be thoroughly, historically, coherently, theologically and be dispensational.
Now if you've made a mutt of your theological constructs and slapped together whatever works then, well, you've got a mutt. It might be nice and even keep you warm at night, but its still a mutt and not a pure system.
There are no "4-point" Calvinists. They don't exist. If you claim Calvin in your theology you have to claim him all. Calvin wasn't anything less than the five points which accurately frame his theology.
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Strange , as MANY of those who have taught/ do teach at say MTS/DTS held to 4/5 points of calvinism in JUST regarding sotierology, and still found it bibical to also be dispy to varying degrees!
Thanks ....but really not so good.....I was tired when I wrote & addressed it to Preach 4 Truth instead of Preach in Jesus.....Oh Well!
What is your sticking point JF....that you aren't a Covenantal Theology believer? I think I have mentioned to you that I am not in lock step with that either. Nor am I a Dispensationalist. However my Salvation Theology is every bit both Reformational & Calvinistic. Hope that answers the question.:thumbsup:
And as far as Election goes, let me say again ..... The Calvinist holds to Gods Sovereignty & what Ive seen in here (& you've seen this as well).... the insistence that divine sovereignty must somehow be accommodated to human capability. To these folks, election is not a divine decree, rather its based on the humans choice. And this is a real sticking point for me "the claim that the efficacy of the atonement does not rest on Christs saving work alone, but also on the sinner's faith & repentance." So to me they are saying that although God's grace is attractive & persuasive, it is not powerful enough to triumph over those who stubbornly resist His love.
So brother, given that I will say you will have to choose what beliefs you consider correct in regard to your own glorification of your Lord. I know what I believe to be true & I know who & what I am.....A Christian Believer who also happens to agree with Calvinistic DOG Theology as my SALVATION Theology.
Calvinism is the truth of God. It is held by \Reformed Baptists,Presbyterians, Chrisitan Reformed,and others.
Have you read the historic confessions of the church? You need to read.
Someone can hold the 5 pts and be pre-mill..,amill, post mill, historic premill.
You are mixing up too many ideas at the same time.
read....
Wait just a minute there. Dr.Bob is a Calvinist,for sure. A.W.Pink was still a Calvinist before he dispensed with Dispensationalism. John MacArthur is still a Calvinist though being a leaky dispensationalist.
When you say "claim Calvin" you have erred. Calvinists do not have to "claim Calvin",Calvinists claim Scripture as their authority. If we adhere to all of John Calvin's beliefs we wouldn't be Baptists now,would we? Don't go too far afield.
Many Calvinists of the Dutch Reformed churches and conservative Presbyterians will not accept us as true Calvinists because we don't go whole hog with all of their distinctives. We are mutts in their eyes. So you'd better modify your dogmatic ways.