Is Calvinism "mainly" a Sotierology System Of Theology?

[Iconoclast]

Rippon, you make some wonderful points. I'm glad someone could articulate these points...



To be a thoroughgoing Calvinist one must accept Covenant theology. Otherwise, you're just fooling yourself.

There are too many problems, theologically, that arise when one attempts to impute, say dispensationalism, into the Calvinist matrix. You have a serious issue with covenantal language and reconciling the soteriological distinction between the Old Testament means of grace and the New Testament expression for starters. More on this below.



But everybody claims "Scripture" as the source of their authority don't they?

Say I'm a Barthian, I claim the Word of God. Say I'm a Classical Dispensationalist (a Darbian) I claim the Bible. Say I'm a Bultmannian, I claim the (demythologized) Scriptures. This list goes on and on...so we can't say that "Calvinsts" claim Scripture solely. Though that is the final authority for their system, they still must adhere to the pathways of their founder, Jean Calvin.

Though I appreciate the encourage to remain within acceptable boundaries, the truth is that if you claim to be a "Calvinist" you are following a system of theology developed by and proposed by Jean Calvin. Though Scripture is the ultimate authority for the claims of the theology, one cannot be a thoroughgoing Calvinist and dismiss points of Calvinism that Calvin made.

His name is on the theological system. It isn't so difficult to imagine that we must stay lashed to some semblance of identity if we claim the name/system.

JF is attempting to claim aspects of Calvinism for his system (wrongly denoting them as Doctrine of Grace) while also attempting to fuse a form of dispensationalist eschatology while also attempting to hold to a Warfieldian view of Scripture (I've picked this up from our interaction.) Well you can amalgamate any number of systems you desire, just don't call it something its not.



The Reformed circles are sort of like Baptists in America. Lots of conversations. Yet certain things remain essential.

The bottom line is you can't hold to three or four points of Calvinism, you can't change the system, you can't approach his hermeneutic dispensationally and still claim to be a Calvinist. Read The Institutes and his commentaries, none of that stuff works with his system. Jean Calvin's theological proposal is rightly classified by Jacob Arminius (his greatest student) in the five points noted at Dordt. You can't get away from it.

I guess my challenge is, then, show me how, in all of Calvin's work, one can be dispensational and remain coherent with his theological prolegomena.

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[glfredrick]

Let's play "identify the source of the quote" for a bit... :laugh:

To the elect, or the elected. It may be asked, how could this be found out, for the election of God is hid, and cannot be known without the special revelation of the Spirit; and as every one is made sure of his own election by the testimony of the Spirit, so he can know nothing certain of others. To this I answer, that we are not curiously to inquire about the election of our brethren, but ought on the contrary to regard their calling, so that all who are admitted by faith into the church, are to be counted as the elect; for God thus separates them from the world, which is a sign of election. It is no objection to say that many fall away, having nothing but the semblance; for it is the judgment of charity and not of faith, when we deem all those elect in whom appears the mark of God’s adoption. And that he does not fetch their election from the hidden counsel of God, but gathers it from the effect, is evident from the context; for afterwards he connects it with the sanctification of the Spirit As far then as they proved that they were regenerated by the Spirit of God, so far did he deem them to be the elect of God, for God does not sanctify any but those whom he has previously elected.

 

[JesusFan]

Correction:The InstituteS. They are comprised of several volumes. The Battles edition edited by McNeil is 1800 pages.

I sincerely doubt that you read all the contents in just one weekend.If you had devoted 20 hours collectively that means you would have been reading at the rate of roughly 5 pages every three minutes. Calvin's magnum opus cannot be merely scanned.

that is the version that i read while in college...
Mine was a 2 volume set....

Know need to go back and reread it throughly, as mine was indeed 'skimming" to prepare for testing!

 

[JesusFan]

I would be inclined to agree with you, although there are times when the Calvinist view of election lines up quite nicely with the Dispensationalist view of a pedigreed type of assurance for the Jews.

just curious, how would you see that being found at least as a possibility in calvinism?

 

[Benjamin]

just curious, how would you see that being found at least as a possibility in calvinism?

Are you asking me how I can possibly see a comparison between the dispensationalists’ view of the predetermination that “all Israel (meaning pedigreed Jews) will be saved” to that of the Calvinists’ view of the predetermined election of (specially pre-selected) individuals is alike? I would ask you to think about that first before asking, again: “how I would see a possibility comparison between the two views”. Hint; it has to do with “predetermined selection” of people for salvation and how the two views line up “nicely” together in that way.... frankly, I think it should be obvious how "I see" that comparison being found if you think about it before asking....Just sayin.

 

[JesusFan]

Are you asking me how I can possibly see a comparison between the dispensationalists’ view of the predetermination that “all Israel (meaning pedigreed Jews) will be saved” to that of the Calvinists’ view of the predetermined election of (specially pre-selected) individuals is alike? I would ask you to think about that first before asking, again: “how I would see a possibility comparison between the two views”. Hint; it has to do with “predetermined selection” of people for salvation and how the two views line up “nicely” together in that way.... frankly, I think it should be obvious how "I see" that comparison being found if you think about it before asking....Just sayin.

I have never heard the term "pedigreed jew" used before!
We do not hold that all jews will be saved due to being in Old Covenant relationship with God, any jew saved by God since pentacost has come through jesus and the Cross, its just that we hold that ALL jews still alive at his second Coming will be saved that day!

 

[Benjamin]

I have never heard the term "pedigreed jew" used before!
We do not hold that all jews will be saved due to being in Old Covenant relationship with God, any jew saved by God since pentacost has come through jesus and the Cross, its just that we hold that ALL jews still alive at his second Coming will be saved that day!

According to the Dispensationalist interpretation of Rom 11:26 …on what basis?...OIOW’s Just how? when? and why? Will all Israel (Jews) be saved "if" not according to “predetermined pedigree”? Or are you suggesting to me their (Jews) salvation is based on a current…freewill…. “relationship” instead of a predetermined election.

 

[JesusFan]

According to the Dispensationalist interpretation of Rom 11:26 …on what basis?...OIOW’s Just how? when? and why? Will all Israel (Jews) be saved "if" not according to “predetermined pedigree”? Or are you suggesting to me their (Jews) salvation is based on a current…freewill…. “relationship” instead of a predetermined election.

saying that both jews and gentiles that are saved by God are elcted out by Him, based upon His Will, and placed by Him to Body of Christ, effectually graced there by Cross of Christ...

So in THIS present Age of Grace, both come through same means/way, based NOT upon jewishness, but upon the election Will of God...

When jesus comes back to earth, then the Kingdom will be granted to national isreal,jews, and those at that generation will all be saved by being "pedigreed" into the Kingdom by having God fulfilled Jeremiah, Zacheriah, acts, romans etc prophetic promises to them!

 

[Benjamin]

saying that both jews and gentiles that are saved by God are elcted out by Him, based upon His Will, and placed by Him to Body of Christ, effectually graced there by Cross of Christ...

So in THIS present Age of Grace, both come through same means/way, based NOT upon jewishness, but upon the election Will of God...

When jesus comes back to earth, then the Kingdom will be granted to national isreal,jews, and those at that generation will all be saved by being "pedigreed" into the Kingdom by having God fulfilled Jeremiah, Zacheriah, acts, romans etc prophetic promises to them!

If you say so...

 

[JesusFan]

If you say so...

just curious...

how would you say so?

 

[Benjamin]

just curious...

how would you say so?

Election based on freewill faith, not on predetermined election of the specially preselected few.

 

[glfredrick]

Funny how no one jumped at the chance to guess the quote I posted above.

Same guy wrote this:

But we ought wisely to consider what this precognition or foreknowledge is. For the sophists, in order to obscure the grace of God, imagine that the merits of each are foreseen by God, and that thus the reprobate are distinguished from the elect, as every one proves himself worthy of this or that lot. But Scripture everywhere sets the counsel of God, on which is founded our salvation, in opposition to our merits. Hence, when Peter calls them elect according to the precognition of God, he intimates that the cause of it depends on nothing else but on God alone, for he of his own free will has chosen us. Then the foreknowledge of God excludes every worthiness on the part of man.
...

 

[preachinjesus]

I thought it was obviously Jean Calvin. Your quote here is from his commentary on 1 Peter.

Sorry thought someone else would reply.

 

[glfredrick]

But is Calvin's response surprising to anyone here?

It should be, for it is not the stereotype painted of his stance.

 

[JesusFan]

Election based on freewill faith, not on predetermined election of the specially preselected few.

But are all free to accept and become the elect, or just a selected out group?

Does God grace enable ALL the means to receive jesus and become elected, or do we all have that capability"naturally?"

 

[Benjamin]

But are all free to accept and become the elect, or just a selected out group?

Does God grace enable ALL the means to receive jesus and become elected, or do we all have that capability"naturally?"

The point of discussion and which I was addressing had to do with a deterministic comparison between Calvinism and Dispensationalism which apparently you have evaded to acknowledge that simple point. On that note, I do not have the time to take a never ending circular course around your whole theological system as you try to direct the discussion down different paths while looking for cover and to see if I can pull you out of every rabbit hole you find along the way. Even if I did you would soon enough head down the same path again and jump back into the same hole as if we had never gone down that path before.

But to answer the above before leaving this; every man is genuinely offered the gift of grace (and therefore must have ability to respond) and every man will be held accountable for his own actions (none will have an excuse not to recieve Jesus and become elected), for God is righteous, Only Good and all His ways are justice. Deut 32:4.

 

[JesusFan]

Funny how no one jumped at the chance to guess the quote I posted above.

Same guy wrote this:

maybe because in church, every question seems like answer is 'jesus", while here, unless its a bible quote, answer is "calvin?"

 

[JesusFan]

The point of discussion and which I was addressing had to do with a deterministic comparison between Calvinism and Dispensationalism which apparently you have evaded to acknowledge that simple point. On that note, I do not have the time to take a never ending circular course around your whole theological system as you try to direct the discussion down different paths while looking for cover and to see if I can pull you out of every rabbit hole you find along the way. Even if I did you would soon enough head down the same path again and jump back into the same hole as if we had never gone down that path before.

But to answer the above before leaving this; every man is genuinely offered the gift of grace (and therefore must have ability to respond) and every man will be held accountable for his own actions (none will have an excuse not to recieve Jesus and become elected), for God is righteous, Only Good and all His ways are justice. Deut 32:4.

IF we stick on the contrast between cal and Dispy for now though...

isn't it true that cal sets election on an individual basis for salvation, while Dispy itself set forth more of a "corpate" election as regards to a "faithful remnant" of jewish believers, who were elcted by God in Christ?