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Is Calvisnism Gnostic

Winman

Active Member
I have already looked at quite a bit of his stuff.

The bigger problem is whether or not Augustine was at all influenced by Gnosticism does not prove any relationship between Calvinism and Gnosticism. It is a week link at best.

Give me a break, even Calvinists admit Calvin's greatest influence was Augustine.
 

Crabtownboy

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Revmitchell: The bigger problem is whether or not Augustine was at all influenced by Gnosticism does not prove any relationship between Calvinism and Gnosticism. It is a week link at best.

This statement is staggering in the ignorance it shows about Calvin. That Calvin was greatly influenced by Augustine is readily acknowledged by all, Calvinist or otherwise, who have any knowledge of Calvin and his belief system.


Now wikipedia good grief.

It is better than your opinion and that is all you have given.

There is no doubt that Augustine at one time in his life was a Gnostic. From Encyclopedia Britannica:

Manichaeism rapidly spread west into the Roman Empire. From Egypt it moved across northern Africa (where the young Augustine temporarily became a convert) and reached Rome in the early 4th century.

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/362167/Manichaeism





You refer to other people who make the same claim as you but refuse to accept scholarly sources?

A rather inconsistent position. And it is false that you rely mainly on scripture with regards to this issue.

It is clear you cannot back up your claim in a reasonable way

I have access to a couple of online scholarly libraries. I am going to see if I can find anything on this next week.

No one who has even a very elementary knowledge of Calvin denies that Calvin was greatly influenced by Augustine.

St. Thomas Aquinas took much from Augustine while creating his own unique synthesis of Greek and Christian thought. Two later theologians who claimed special influence from Augustine were John Calvin and Cornelius Jansen. Calvinism developed as a part of Reformation theology, while Jansenism was a movement inside the Catholic Church; some Jansenists went into schism and formed their own church.

http://www.religionfacts.com/christianity/people/augustine.htm

John Calvin was tremendously influential in the Protestant world. He is generally credited with being the spiritual father of Prebyterianism and the Reformed Churches. But he himself had been significantly influenced by Augustine (354-430). One authority says that “Calvin often read the Biblical text through the eyes of Augustine . . .” (Westminster Dictionary of Church History, p. 148).

To appreciate the influence of Platonism on the theology of John Calvin, we must move on to consider Augustine, who, of all the Church Fathers, was the most influential on Calvin. Augustine differed, in fact, from the other Church Fathers, in that he argued that the terms ‘image’ and ‘likeness’ were synonymous. Having said that, he did on occasions use the term ‘likeness’ in isolation, to convey the growth resemblance of man to God. This was because, for Augustine, man is an imperfect image and so is capable of growth in likeness to God. Full likeness in this sense, however, is reserved for the state of glory and the resurrection. Whilst Augustine was certainly influenced by Neo-Platonism and was never able wholly to break
free from that influence, the way in which he viewed the image of God in man as imperfect, shows how decisively he broke away from the ‘Plotinian concept of image.’ He did however, tend to draw a distinction between soul and body and certainly held to a hierarchical view of soul and body, the soul always being viewed as the nobler part, because, for Augustine, the image of God is very definitely in the soul and not the body. There was a
tendency, even in the theology of Augustine, to view salvation as a struggle of the soul to regain control over the body and its passions. The body, whilst viewed as ‘good’ was, nonetheless, to be subordinate to the reason and the will, which are, in turn, subordinate to God. It has to be noted therefore, that Augustine’s approach was not purely Biblical and that
the remaining Platonist influence in Augustine inevitably led to certain tensions in his thinking which are reflected in his theology.

http://churchsociety.org/churchman/documents/Cman_105_3_Hallett.pdf

One area from the quote above, which I will put in a quote below, is classic Gnosticism:

for Augustine, the image of God is very definitely in the soul and not the body. There was a tendency, even in the theology of Augustine, to view salvation as a struggle of the soul to regain control over the body and its passions.

The separation of the spiritual from the material is a lynch-pin of Gnosticism and fits well into Calvin's theology.

And another from the same passage is an idea that also is straight from Gnosticism and fits into Calvin's theology on the total depravity of man.

This was because, for Augustine, man is an imperfect image and so is capable of growth in likeness to God.
 
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Revmitchell

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
No one in this thread has denied that Austine was once a Gnostic or that Austine influenced Calvinism. Not one single time.

But it is a formal fallacy to suggest that those facts automatically lead to the idea that any part of Calvinism is Gnostic.
 

Revmitchell

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
By the way Augustine came to eventually teach against Manichaeism


Proofread 2 times
NPNF1-04. Augustine: The Writings Against the Manichaeans and Against the Donatists


Author: Augustine, Saint (354-430)
Editor: Schaff, Philip (1819-1893)
Description: With over twenty volumes, the Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers is a momentous achievement. Originally gathered by Philip Schaff, the Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers is a collection of writings by classical and medieval Christian theologians. The purpose of such a collection is to make their writings readily available. The entire work is divided into two series. The first series focuses on two classical Christian theologians--St. Augustine and St. John Chrysostom. St. Augustine is one of the most influential and important Christian thinkers of all time. In addition to reprinting his most popular two works--the Confessions and the City of God--these volumes also contain other noteworthy and important works of St. Augustine, such as On the Holy Trinity, Christian Doctrine, and others. St. John Chrysostom was an eloquent speaker and well-loved Christian clergyman. St. John took a more literal interpretation of Scripture, and much of his work focused on practical aspects of Christianity, particularly what is now called social justice. He advocated for the poor, and challenged abuses of authority. This particular volume contains Augustine's writings against the Donatists and Manichaeism--a form of Gnosticism. The Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers is comprehensive in scope, and provide keen translations of instructive and illuminating texts from some of the greatest theologians of the Christian church. These spiritually enlightening texts have aided Christians for over a thousand years, and remain instructive and fruitful even today!

Tim Perrine
CCEL Staff Writer

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf104.html
 

Revmitchell

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
So even the mistaken use of the formal fallacy suggesting that because Augustine was once influenced by Gnosticism means that Calvinism has some foundation in Gnosticism is utterly refuted and completely discredited.
 

Crabtownboy

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
No one in this thread has denied that Austine was once a Gnostic or that Austine influenced Calvinism. Not one single time.

But it is a formal fallacy to suggest that those facts automatically lead to the idea that any part of Calvinism is Gnostic.

Direct line connecting the dots:

Gnostic belief that humans are totally depraved as the material is evil while the spirit is good.

Augustine, who was a Gnostic for a period of time, fits the idea into his theology. He had to make a few adjustments for it to fit into his Christian belief system.

Calvin, greatly influenced by Augustine, makes "total depravity" one of his five lynch-pins of his theology.
 

Crabtownboy

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
So even the mistaken use of the formal fallacy suggesting that because Augustine was once influenced by Gnosticism means that Calvinism has some foundation in Gnosticism is utterly refuted and completely discredited.

Your opinion refutes nothing You cite no sources. You give only your opinion.

Give us sources showing a disconnect between the three.
 

Revmitchell

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Your opinion refutes nothing You cite no sources. You give only your opinion.

Give us sources showing a disconnect between the three.

First, you have shown no real connection between the three. Your formal fallacy is obvious.


Second I have disproven any chance of a connection with a sited source which you have conveniently overlooked.
 

Crabtownboy

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Prove that is what he did. The fact that he preached against Gnosticism later disproves your unsubstantiated claim.

There were many groups with differing beliefs all of whom were called Gnostics. Of course Augustine preached against those Gnostics with whom he did not agree. But, as can be seen, in his total depravity of man, he did not jettison all of his Gnostic beliefs. Also, his separation of the material and spiritual is directly from Gnostic beliefs.

Yes, he jettisoned some Gnostic beliefs. But not all.

It is too late here tonight to respond to your "prove that is what he did". However you are 8 hours behind me, so surely you can research it for yourself in that time. It is all there if you will but look.
 

Revmitchell

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
There were many groups with differing beliefs all of whom were called Gnostics. Of course Augustine preached against those Gnostics with whom he did not agree. But, as can be seen, in his total depravity of man, he did not jettison all of his Gnostic beliefs. Also, his separation of the material and spiritual is directly from Gnostic beliefs.

Yes, he jettisoned some Gnostic beliefs. But not all.

It is too late here tonight to respond to your "prove that is what he did". However you are 8 hours behind me, so surely you can research it for yourself in that time. It is all there if you will but look.

Of course you want to make a claim and have me research your claim for you. You cannot support your own and are avoiding being accountable to your own words. Your next post will be more false accusations against me mike you usually do. You have now proven your inability to support your formal fallacies.
\
And is it clear from my scholarly source that what Augustine preached against specifically was Manichaeism, the very thing you hold that influenced him. But like a true liberal you speak in generalities rather than specifics so as not to be accountable to much. It does not fly with me.
 
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Thomas Helwys

New Member
What do you consider credible? One can simply do a Google search and see that Calvinism has been associated with Gnosticism by many. Calvin's greatest influence was Augustine, and Augustine was both a Manichaen and Gnostic for a period of his life. Many scholars have written that Augustine was greatly influenced by both Manichaen and Gnostic teachings.



You can deny that those who claim Calvinism is founded upon Gnostic teachings is credible, but you cannot deny that MANY have claimed this.

:thumbsup:

Augustine is the source of most errors in the Western churches, Protestant and Catholic.

To deny that he was influenced by his pagan/Manichaen past is to ignore history and fact.
 

Thomas Helwys

New Member
As I said before these links are not new to me. Anyone can create a web page and post their views. That in and of itself is not compelling. Neither is having multiple people share the same view.

Please show me a scholarly paper published only after having been sourced by anyone in theological circles. Written in a format such as MLA, APA, or Turabian. Not just web sites created by any old Tom, Sam, and Harry. They are nothing but poorly written opinion pieces.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augustine_of_Hippo

Second paragraph confirms what we have been saying. Anyone familiar with Augustine knows this.
 

Thomas Helwys

New Member
You are correct. Also Rev. never cites credible sources and almost never answers questions. He makes opinionated comments, but does not back them up.

In this thread he began he gives his opinion, refuses to consider answers given, but does not give citations supporting his position ... whatever that is at the moment.

Frankly I believe the whole subject is new to him as are the links and sources given.

My reply will not receive a reasoned reply. I expect an insulting or attempted insulting reply.

:thumbsup:

That Augustine was influenced by his past of Manichaesm and Neoplatonism cannot be refuted, nor can his influence on Calvin or RC theology. People can deny all they want, but they can't change the facts.
 

Revmitchell

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
:thumbsup:

That Augustine was influenced by his past of Manichaesm and Neoplatonism cannot be refuted, nor can his influence on Calvin or RC theology. People can deny all they want, but they can't change the facts.

I already refuted it and gave an academic source. Where is your source?
 

Thomas Helwys

New Member


This statement is staggering in the ignorance it shows about Calvin. That Calvin was greatly influenced by Augustine is readily acknowledged by all, Calvinist or otherwise, who have any knowledge of Calvin and his belief system.




It is better than your opinion and that is all you have given.

There is no doubt that Augustine at one time in his life was a Gnostic. From Encyclopedia Britannica:









No one who has even a very elementary knowledge of Calvin denies that Calvin was greatly influenced by Augustine.







One area from the quote above, which I will put in a quote below, is classic Gnosticism:



The separation of the spiritual from the material is a lynch-pin of Gnosticism and fits well into Calvin's theology.

And another from the same passage is an idea that also is straight from Gnosticism and fits into Calvin's theology on the total depravity of man.


:thumbsup:
 

Thomas Helwys

New Member
Direct line connecting the dots:

Gnostic belief that humans are totally depraved as the material is evil while the spirit is good.

Augustine, who was a Gnostic for a period of time, fits the idea into his theology. He had to make a few adjustments for it to fit into his Christian belief system.

Calvin, greatly influenced by Augustine, makes "total depravity" one of his five lynch-pins of his theology.

:thumbsup:
 

Thomas Helwys

New Member
I already refuted it and gave an academic source. Where is your source?

You have refuted nothing.

You have been given sources. If you want to deny the truth, you argue against historical evidence, not against me.

Everyone from interested laypeople to scholars knows that Augustine's theology was influenced by Manichaesm and Neoplatonism, and this in turn was highly influential in the RCC and in Calvinism.

Most of the errors in Western Christian thought can be traced to Augustine.
 
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