What I am asking for is for you to make your case citing your sources. Posting a link to some book with some vague claim is not helpful.
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Is Calvisnism Gnostic
- Thread starter Revmitchell
- Start date
What I am asking for is for you to make your case citing your sources. Posting a link to some book with some vague claim is not helpful.
It would appear a simple task! So whats the big run around?
Thomas Helwys
New Member
I have decided not to post further in this thread. Two of my best friends on this forum are Calvinists, and I will refrain from posting out of respect for them, not their views. 
Well, the link that I provided did not work, though I was reading the actual book online at that link. If you can find it for yourself, you will see the whole book is about Augustine's gnostic teachings and the influence it had on him, plus the author references dozens of books on the same subject.
You said you would study this issue, I am just trying to help you out. If you truly study this issue you will find numerous scholars have written on Augustine and his gnostic influences. It is COMMON knowledge.
Another "scholarly" work on this subject.
http://www.dissertation.com/book.php?method=ISBN&book=1581120176
If you wish to continue to deny that there are "scholars" who wrote about Gnosticism and it's influence on Augustine, that is your right, but it does not change the facts.
http://www.dissertation.com/book.php?method=ISBN&book=1581120176
If you wish to continue to deny that there are "scholars" who wrote about Gnosticism and it's influence on Augustine, that is your right, but it does not change the facts.
If any of you bother to look that book up online (it is there), read the 11th chapter in particular, it is about the influence of Gnosticism on Augustine. Read page 191.
You guys can make fun all you want, I will provide real evidence that you all will simply deny.
JBRB,
This sadly seems to be the case much more than it should be.
This sadly seems to be the case much more than it should be.
Well this is the first time you have actually provided any useful evidence in how many days has this been posted my Mark Mitchell. I will let him evaluate it because he asked for it......as for me, I dont give a wit.
I and others have shown several links relating Augustine to Gnosticism, but they were simply dismissed as not being "scholarly" whatever that is supposed to mean. You can find scholars who support or disagree with any subject, just because someone has a degree from an institution of learning or writes a book does not mean he knows anything. Some of the most foolish people in history have been the most educated. Paul himself said he did come with "wisdom".
1 Cor 2:1 And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.
If this was 2000 years ago and I submitted statements by Paul against Augustine, he would probably be dismissed as not being a "scholar".
But the fact is, there have been many books written by many scholars concerning the influence of gnosticism on Augustine. I have read quite a few, but I didn't know I would have to keep a detailed list for Rev. Mitchell. If he REALLY wants to know the truth, it is out there.
At least you are honest, you simply don't care. You have already made up your mind what you DESIRE to believe. The real question is WHY you even bother to enter this debate seeing you do not "give a wit".
As I stated earlier.....I dont care. The OP's Rev Mitchells. Go bother him.
I do not know of anyone who has ever denied such a thing.
pilgrim_99
Member
I haven't read all 12 pages of this discussion so my point may have already been made. I'm Calvinistic and am a former Presbyterian as well.
There are some strains of Hyper-Calvinism that I think can rightly be called gnostic or gnostic-like. I've seen some FB groups refer to "New-Gnostic Calvinism." I think that refers to those who believe one has to be a Calvinist in order to be saved. Those Hyper-Calvinists who refuse to evangelize could be said to have a gnostic tendency.
There are some strains of Hyper-Calvinism that I think can rightly be called gnostic or gnostic-like. I've seen some FB groups refer to "New-Gnostic Calvinism." I think that refers to those who believe one has to be a Calvinist in order to be saved. Those Hyper-Calvinists who refuse to evangelize could be said to have a gnostic tendency.
Well, thank you very much for your honest input, but I am not going to submit any more evidence to Rev. Mitchell, he would likely simply dismiss it as not "scholarly". He seems to be the judge and jury for what is considered real evidence. It is one of those "heads I win, tails you lose" deals. I am not going to waste any more time, if he wants to study this subject he can.
But again, thank you for your honesty.
You know...no one in this thread has said anything rude to you. And since you find ti difficult to meet the standard you turn to this rhetoric that is uncalled for.
I was simply asking someone to make a legitimate case. No one said there are no scholars out there. We cannot have a discussion on this issue on this board with a link to a book.
If you are going to be insistent in such an extreme claim then it should be easy to back up your claim with real sources. Make any number of individual claims and site your sources. No links are required. But avoid links to sites who have done nothing more than has been done on this board up to this point.
See, this behavior is no different than the claims made by some calvinists that free will is a product of open theism or at least that is what it leads to. These extreme accusations made simply out of emotional disdain helps nothing
Well, when folks try to show you evidence, but you simply dismiss it as not scholarly, I would say that is very rude.
Have you made any effort to find out if some of these articles are based upon scholarly work? I bet you didn't spend 10 seconds doing that. Some of these articles were probably written by people who have spent years studying the subject. But you, a person who has never spent a moment investigating this subject is the judge and jury of what is reliable evidence. I would bet that I have spent hundreds of hours more than you studying this subject, and I am just a novice.
Thomas said he has spent decades studying this subject, how does that compare to you?
Edit- and there is a vast difference between this subject and open theism, open theism is something you can compare against scripture to determine if it is true. You cannot do that to determine whether gnosticism influenced Augustine and Calvin, although you can examine the similarities between the doctrines of the elect and predestination with gnosticism.
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They did not source their work. If their view is based on any time studying other works and they published their view publically then they have been dishonest. And you have no idea how much time anyone on this board has spent studying it.
But your disdain continues to shine through.
Blah, blah, blah, believe what you want. I have studied this for years as I have not believed in Original Sin for years, and so studied Augustine and where this doctrine originated. Unfortunately I did not keep records of everything I have read on the subject so I could present it to you. You would have dismissed it anyway, that is OBVIOUS.
Original Sin is founded on gnosticism and that the material is evil. This is why Augustine believed a sin nature is passed physically.
I'm not going to waste time with you any more, believe what you will.
Where in any of his writings did Augustine say that material is evil and therefore supports original sin?