Is Christmas Scriptural?

[Dale]

Originally posted by Bartimaeus:
Be careful now Wopik, you are walking a thin line now. You just wished everybody on another thread (23 Nov) happy Thanksgiving. Thanksgiving is celebrated as a Christian holiday in the US and I believe it has pagan origins. Better watch out! You may have crossed the line. Besides I want to know what the name of the church is that you attend and where it is located, and I just can't seem to get an answer from you. Well...whatdayouknowaboutthat!
Thanks ------Bart

THanksgiving of pagan origin? Where have you heard that?

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Bro. James:
While in my wallet searching for pagans I found:

Receipts from a "debit" card--which is a form of cash.

Receipts from a "visa" card--a questionable form of credit.

Several U.S. Federal Reserve Notes in various denominations--used mostly to trade for goods and services.

I would like to trade salt for goods and services; but no one is interested. I also have baseball cards for trade, but the baker and butcher will not swap.

All of the bills have the words: "IN GOD WE TRUST" on them. However, that may be referring to GAOTU, of F&AM origin--the one dollar bill has a Masonic symbol on the reverse--not surprising, George Washington was a mason--so were several others of our "founding fathers". It is interesting to study through that particular fact in history--after studying about cherry trees.

I better stop before I violate some one elses' "sanctum sanctorum".

"Judgement begins at the House of God."

Selah,

Bro. James

This is getting old hat. All of those objections have been answered. There are many names of various days, names, objects that have names of pagan origin. We can't do without them. They are part of our language. But they are not part of our religious system. Words are not worshipped, per se. Christmas is a religious festival, as is the worship of the sun in different countries. You have the different names of different gods because of different nations worshipping the same festival calling the same god (the sun god) under different names. But the principle in all of this is the same. You have the Christianization of a pagan holiday and festival--the incorporation of pagan icons and idols into Christianity. You have syncretized paganism and Christianity and in essence come up with a new religion, which is neither totally pagan nor totally Christian. "Learn not the way of the heathen," Jeremiah warned.
DHK

 

[mioque]

DHK
"Christmas is a religious festival"
"
That just happens to take place on December 25, apparently a rather popular date for religious festivals. It's that whole days getting longer again thing, gives the whole festival a nice symbolic touch.

"You have the Christianization of a pagan holiday and festival"
"
Sure.

"the incorporation of pagan icons and idols into Christianity."
"
I think you are getting just a little bit overexcited about those nativity scenes.

"You have syncretized paganism and Christianity and in essence come up with a new religion, which is neither totally pagan nor totally Christian."
"
Alexander Hislop is bad for you and he was a fraud as well, stop reading him.

 

[HankD]

All of the bills have the words: "IN GOD WE TRUST" on them. However, that may be referring to GAOTU, of F&AM origin--the one dollar bill has a Masonic symbol on the reverse--not surprising, George Washington was a mason--so were several others of our "founding fathers". It is interesting to study through that particular fact in history--after studying about cherry trees.

Thanks for proving my point.

http://www.luciferlink.org/fallsee.htm

HankD

 

[HankD]

This is getting old hat.

I don't think so.

You have syncretized paganism and Christianity and in essence come up with a new religion, which is neither totally pagan nor totally Christian. "Learn not the way of the heathen," Jeremiah warned.

My question is why not go all the way? Why equivocate?

Why if one slams the celebration of Christmas one does not slam the putting of idolatrous money in the offering or sitting in church worshipping with idols of false gods in one's pocket?

The celebration of christmas is not the only "syncretized" practice of paganism in Christianity.

If you wish, we could go into our forms and modes of wordship which have pagan origins. The use of the "pulpit-pew" arrangement for instance unknown to the early church.

HankD

 

[Ed Edwards]

I'm with you Brother Hank.

Giving up Christmas as a Pagan holiday
but not giving up other Pagan stuff --
it is much like saying we need to keep
the Jewish Law to the letter,
but not giving up our hot dogs
and pork chops.

 

[LadyEagle]

We should probably technically be celebrating hanukkah (the Feast of Lights), anyway, since Jesus, the Light of the World was probably born during Hanukkah which always falls within the "Christmas" season.

 

[Rich_UK]

I'm surprised you keep baseball cards Bro James. Do you have any pictures of the sinless, virgin Mary to swap also ?

 

[HankD]

but not giving up our hot dogs
and pork chops

Or BBQ ribs!!

HankD

 

[Bro. James]

Picture of Mary--

Sorry my only icons of Mary are mental.(no pictures of the three wise men either) They(the mental images) were formed before Mary was elevated to Queen of Heaven--a pagan notion. She must surely be saddened by those who have conjured "her" at places like Lourdes, and Majourgoria(sic).

There is only one mediator--Jesus--and He ever lives to make intercession for His flock.

Selah,

Bro. James

 

[Ed Edwards]

Originally posted by HankD:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />but not giving up our hot dogs
and pork chops

Or BBQ ribs!!

HankD </font>[/QUOTE]I wouldn't BBQ any ribs
but the finest beef.

 

[Bartimaeus]

Dale,
I don't really care if Thanksgiving is of pagan origins or not. (which I believe it is) My point is that if you throw everything out of your life that has pagan origins you would have to be in one place, the grave. Everything else in our lives have "some" pagan origins. I also believe Bro James has listed all the positions possible on this issue, let me start another list. The "haves" and the "have nots".
The "haves" are all those people who say "ha ha ha I have the blessing of God on my life because I don't celebrate the PAGAN CHRISTMAS!" and the rest of us who are the "have nots". I just remember the old saying, "some people are so heavenly minded they are no earthly good". I don't celebrate Christmas either by the way.
Thanks -----Bart

 

[Bro. James]

"Don't Look Back"--"Remember Lot's wife"

A one line sermon--to the heart of the matter.

Selah,

Bro. James

 

[GrannyGumbo]

The world hates Jesus & He is NOT the reason for the season...Christ-mass is a season looking for a reason. (And no, I don't do the others, including b'days).

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Bro. James:
We seem to have at least 5 camps:

1. While it may be a little pagan, if we keep Jesus' in mind, it is probably O.K.

2. It may be pagan, but we will not repent until everyone gives up everything remotely paganist in origin.

3. It is surely pagan, and God's children should have nothing to do with such idolatry.

4. My flesh revels in Christmas so much I cannot stop.

5. It is probably pagan, but I will not repent until every iota of its history is proven beyond a shadow of doubt.

Did we "exclude" anybody?

Yes, You excluded those who hold the biblical position that Christ was born into this world as the Son of God and the Savior of mankind and it is entirely appropriate to celebrate his birth. It is utter nonsense to suggest that because some use a day for the wrong reasons that we cannot use the same day for the right reasons. The biblical position is that Christ was born and there is nothing wrong with celebrating that.

You say that Shooting the messenger does not change the message. And you are right ... but it will keep him from spouting off with a bad message.

There is no dispute that some misuse Christmas, both religiously and materially. But that should not stop true Christians from setting aside the time to remember Christ's birth and worship him in it.

May God forgive our unbelief.

Exactly ...

 

[robycop3]

Modern research has placed Jesus' birth in October of 6 BC. this research has investigated such facts as when Quirinius was de-facto governor of the area, the dates of the death of Herod, and the approximate date of Augustus Caesar's decreeing a census, coupled with the fact that Augie didn't require everyone to drop what they were doing and rush to their home towns to be counted.

Common sense says that if GOD had wanted Jesus' earthly birthday to be celebrated, He woulda made that date clearly known. OTOH, He didn't prohibit observing it, either.

To me, Christmas is a bright spot during what's usually a dreary time of year, and another opportunity to thank God for what He's done during the past year.

How many of you have a replica AV 1611 or access to one? If you do, please note that Christmas and Easter are among the "Holy Days" listed in the AV.

To me, these observations are a matter of conscience, same as meat offered to idols in Paul's day. I don't think there's a universal correct answer. Juse remember, whether you observe these days or not, whether you believe they're on the correct days or not, JESUS IS THE REASON FOR THE SEASON.

 

[HankD]

How many of you have a replica AV 1611 or access to one? If you do, please note that Christmas and Easter are among the "Holy Days" listed in the AV.

Right you are RobyCop.

The King of England, The Titular head of the Church of England in 1611 ordained that certain days and birthdays were to be designated as "holy"

Thefe to be obferued as holy dayes and none other...

That is to fay, all Sundayes in the yeere...
Of the purification of the bleffed Virgin...
Of the natiuity of Saint John Baptift...
Of the natiuitie of our Lord...
Sunday and Tuefday of Eafter weeke...

Well, you say, my KJV has no such "Kalendar".

Well, might I offer in return (as others have warned about the MVs) that possibly you have a mutilated Bible without the calendar of "holy dayes" (or the Apocrypha for that matter) that the Lord ordained the King of England and the successors to the apostles (his "bishops") to include between the covers of the original First Edition of the Authorised Version bearing the title of "The Holy Bible".

King James and his "bishops" (apostolic successors) certainly believed "Christmas" to be scriptural.

http://dewey.library.upenn.edu/sceti/printedbooksNew/index.cfm?TextID=kjbible&PagePosition=35

http://dewey.library.upenn.edu/sceti/printedbooksNew/index.cfm?TextID=kjbible&PagePosition=1

HankD

 

[Bro. James]

The Virgin Birth of the Christ:

Is a plain teaching of the scripture.

Children of God celebrating Jesus' birth is nowhere commanded-- unless one is controlled by the dogma of the Vatican. Dec. 25th is certainly a High Holy Day for all those under the pervue of the "holy see".

Whom shall we follow? The Word of God or the commandments of men?

The Mass of Christ? Merry Christmas--stop and analyze the derivation of this term--have a happy crucifixion??? Do God's children participate in the Mass of Christ?

If we practice error long enough it becomes truth--that is just plain "strong delusion".

Selah,

Bro. James

 

[HankD]

Children of God celebrating Jesus' birth is nowhere commanded

So? There are many things we do that are not commanded.

But then again neither is the celebration of His birth forbidden.

HankD

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by HankD:

You have syncretized paganism and Christianity and in essence come up with a new religion, which is neither totally pagan nor totally Christian. "Learn not the way of the heathen," Jeremiah warned.

[QB]

My question is why not go all the way? Why equivocate?

Why if one slams the celebration of Christmas one does not slam the putting of idolatrous money in the offering or sitting in church worshipping with idols of false gods in one's pocket?

Because words have meanings that are totally irrelvant to us. Your name "Hank" for example, what does it mean, and what relevance does the meaning of it have in your everyday life:

Main Entry: hank
Pronunciation: 'ha[ng]k
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, of Scandinavian origin; akin to Old Norse honk hank; akin to Old English hangian to hang

Marriam Webster on-line dictionary.
Does this mean you should apply the meaning of your name to yourself and set out to hang people?
The same applies to words like: Sunday, Monday, Thursday--all of which have pagan origins. And also the dollar bill which has some pagan symbol on it. It doesn't affect us. It has nothing to do with our faith. It is totally irrelevant. You have brought in these red herrings to bring the subject off topic.
Jesus accepted the Roman currency of his time without question. It bore the image of Ceasar on one side. Ceasar considered himself a deity. Yet Jesus said: "Give unto Ceasar that which is Ceasar's and unto God that which is God's. He expected the Jew's to tithe with that very currency, as all pastors expect you to give or tithe with the currency that you have. Or would you turn down money?

Christmas is a relgious festival, and that is what makes the difference. Please try to differentiate.

The celebration of christmas is not the only "syncretized" practice of paganism in Christianity.

If you wish, we could go into our forms and modes of wordship which have pagan origins. The use of the "pulpit-pew" arrangement for instance unknown to the early church.

These are traditions. They have nothing to do with a Christian or pagan "celebration." The meaning of your name is a far worse thing to be concerned about than the pew. Get a hold of yourself here, and get your priorities straight. Christmas is a religious celebration the world over. It is a syncretization between two religions. I will try to give you an example of what would happen if a missionary would try to do that today.

What happens when a missionary goes to an Islamic nation? He will encounter various Islamic festivals that he may not be first aware of. Let me describe one of them to you.

"This festival has become one of the greatest festivals throughout the Islamic world. Great merit accrues to those who keep this festival. A well-known tradition, attributed to 'A''ysha bears this our. She has reported that Muhammad once said:

"Man has not done anything on 'id al-adha more pleasing to God than spilling blood, for verily the animal sacrificed will come on the day of the resurrection with its horns, its hair, its hoofs and will make the scale of his (good) actions heavy. Verily, its blood reaches the acceptance of God before it falls upon the ground; therefore, by joyful in it."

The story of the sacrifice is usually told as follows. When Abraham founded Mecca, the Lord wanted him to prepare a feast. When Abraham asked what God desired, God demanded from him to sacrifice his son. In accordance with God's desire, Abraham took his son to a place near the Ka'ba in order to sacrifice him there. He made several attempts to cut his throat but missed each time. The son then said to his father: "It is through pity and compassion for me that you allow the knife to miss. Blindfold yourself and then sacrifice me." Abraham obeyed, blindfolded himself, drew his knife, said bismillah, allahu akbar, and as he thought, cut the son's throat. When he removed the cloth from his eyes, he found a sheep slain and not his son. Such is the story of Abraham's sacrifice. We notice that the son's name is not mentioned in the Qur'an (37:102-107), but Muslims hold that the son was Ishmael, the ancestor of the Arabs.

The celebration of the festival takes place as follows. In the morning special prayers are said in the mosques. When the prayer is over, people joyfully salute and embrace each other, wishing each other 'id-mubuarik (blessed festival). The rest of the day is spent in feasting and merriment.

When the people have returned home from the prayers, the sacrifice is made. The sacrifice consists of a sheep or a goat for one person and a camel or cow for seven. The victim must be without blemish or defect. When everything is ready, the head of the family (often a butcher takes his place) leads the animal to the entrance of the house, places it to face Mecca and kills it by cutting the throat, pronouncing the words: (bismillah and allahu akbar. Only this manner of slayng is lawful and any other way is forbidden. The meat is divided: one third for the poor, one third for relatives and friends, one third for the family itself.

As to the effect of the festival, the Qur'an reminds people that God really has no need of sacrifice. "Their flesh does not reach God nor does this blood, but it is your piety that reaches him," (Qur'an 22:58 see also 58:57). Incidentally, there are similar passages in the Bible (in the Prophets and Psalms 49 and 50). Yet, in popular piety the killing of the animal is the most important and its reward depends on the value of the victim. The celebration of 'id al-adha is of great importance to the Muslim community. This festival enhances the feelings of unity and solidarity between Muslims the world over; at this time the thoughts of all Muslims are directed to Mecca and Mina, where believers of all climes and races are gathered for prayer and worship. Thus the ceremonies of the pilgrimage and sacrifices are a manifestation of unity in the rich diversity of Islam."
(Muslim Festivals and Ceremonies in Pakistan, by M. Geibels)

This is a current festival that goes on today in all Muslim nations. Now lets suppose your missionary takes the same approach that most western Christians take to Christmas.

What a beautiful ceremony the Muslims have. Look, they take a goat or a sheep and sacrifice it. They do this the same way that Abraham took a ram and sacrificed the ram in place of Isaac--a picture of Christ making an atonement for our sin. And look at the blood being shed, a picture of Christ's being shed for our sin. And the animal has to be perfect, without blemish--just as John the Baptist said, and the Old Testament said. Christ is the Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world. He is sinless, perfect and undefiled. What a perfect picture the Muslims are depicting of our Saviour. Let us hold a festival on this very day, sacrifice a lamb, have the same celebrations. We also can give away part of the meat to our neighbors and the poor as a sign of good will. What a wonderful thing to do.

Instead of rebuking idolatry, falsity, a false relgion, and all of its wrong doctrine, the missionary ends up Christianizing the Muslim religion. The two are syncretized together.

Did not Ravi Zecharias do the same thing when he apologized to the Moromons saying that we (Christianity) have treated you badly all these centuries, and then accomodated them, instead of preaching the gospel message and pointing out their heresies?

Where is Christianity going? We are accomodating heresy into our faith. We fail to stand for the truth. We incorporate it into faith without even realizing it. Are we going to accept the beliefs of Muslims and Hindus next?
The origins of Christmas are clearly pagan, and we have accepted them as Christian. What will be next? I ask you.
DHK