Is Christmas Scriptural?

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Bro. James:
The Virgin Birth of the Christ:

Is a plain teaching of the scripture.

Did someone here deny that?

Children of God celebrating Jesus' birth is nowhere commanded

Did anyone here say that it was commanded?

Whom shall we follow? The Word of God or the commandments of men?

The celebration of Christ's birth is not a commandment of men. It is the commemoration of the greatest act of love in human history ... God sending his son into the world to be the Savior. If that is not something you think is worth remembrance or celebration, then that is up to you. Many of us think that the commemoration and memory of Christ's birth is worth remembering.

The Mass of Christ? Merry Christmas--stop and analyze the derivation of this term--have a happy crucifixion??? Do God's children participate in the Mass of Christ?

No one here that I have seen is suggesting we participate in a mass.

If we practice error long enough it becomes truth--that is just plain "strong delusion".

This is true. But the celebration of Christ's birth is not error ... unless Christ wasn't actually born.

 

[HankD]

And also the dollar bill which has some pagan symbol on it. It doesn't affect us. It has nothing to do with our faith. It is totally irrelevant. You have brought in these red herrings to bring the subject off topic.

Oh yes it does affect us and in my view it is totally relevant and I have indeed in the past struggled with this and several other idolatrous practices of the gentile nations.

Perhaps it is irrelevant to you but I believe differently. The dollar bill has in upper case letters
"IN GOD WE TRUST", on that same dollar bill the idolatrous symbol of Horus, the son of Isis appears above the Great Pyramid of Egypt which makes it's use a direct violation of Scripture:

1 John 5:21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.

You may view my observations as a red herring but if Christians can use money with idolatrous symbols engraven upon them in the public market place and that is forgivable then why not the symbols of the Birth of Christ on December 25th (which in raw probability has 1 out of 365 chances of being correct) since we are not given the exact date of His birth and beside all that as already been asked, where in the Scripture is the observance of birthdays disallowed ?

HankD

 

[DHK]

The observance of Christmas is a Christian religious festival.
The observance of Saturnalia, etc., is a pagan religious festival.
Both are integrated into one Christianized pagan festival, just as I gave you in the example above.

On the other hand we use money in every day transactions that has nothing to do with our faith or with religion of any kind. The example of Jesus is the best example that could be given. He himself used Roman currency bearing Ceaser's image. Ceaser considered himself deity which was blasphemy. Yet Christ expected the Pharisees to keep on tithing. He expected all believers to keep on giving in spite of Ceaser's image. The image on the coin or the dollar bill made no difference to Jesus, and makes no difference to us. It is a secular issue--like I said a red herring.

The integration or sycretization of two religions: one pagan and the other Christian is totally wrong. It is a completely different issue. The disciples would never take the Old Testament feasts and "Christianize" them. Christianity was not Judaism warmed up. They no longer observed the Day of Atonement with a Christian flair put to it. They had renounced those feasts for they had converted from Judaism to Christianity. The pagans from Corith had renounced paganism and converted to Christianity. They were expected to give up their pagan practices, and so Paul warns them to do so:

1 Corinthians 12:2 Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.
DHK

 

[Gwyneth]

"Having read this from beginning to end, I must say - I am guilty 365/6 days a year of celebrating the birth of my Saviour - NOT JUST ONCE A YEAR - on a day chosen by mankind. HE LIVES ,and I celebrate EVERY DAY.

 

[GrannyGumbo]

Amen, sister, amen! But most of all, I'm thankful He died for you & me...that's the best gift of all.

When we take our signs to the streets, it's real easy to see who their god is...& we offended their god (santa/satan) last Saturday.

 

[Gwyneth]

Amen to that sister, may The Lord bless you in your outreach , I am praying for you.
Gwyneth

 

[padredurand]

[non-baptist posting in Baptist Only area]

[ December 01, 2004, 09:20 AM: Message edited by: Dr. Bob ]

 

[robycop3]

Padredurand, Purim is clearly a JEWISH observance. It wasn't even given to the rest of Israel.

Passover was given only to ISRAEL. However, I see nothing wrong with a gentile participating in either observation, unless he/she is replacing the worship of JESUS and faith in Him with "keeping the law" for the purpose of righteousness, a practice expressly forbidden in Scripture.

Same with Easter. We are neither commanded nor forbidden to observe Jesus' resurrection; we are commanded only to believe it happened. ("Easter" is a mistranslation in the KJV at Acts 12:4. Please lookin the archives of the "Bible versions/translations" forum for proof.)

Please observe in Scripture that virtually every feast and holy day was given to ISRAEL to commemorate certain events or acts of God involving Israel. The only one given to CHRISTIANS is Communion. There's no specific date given for its observation. Some churches observe it every service while others observe it once a year.

ALL these various observances except Communion are, to me, a matter of conscience, as was the meat offered to idols that Paul spoke about. There is simply no one correct answer whether to observe or not that fits every Christian. Many faithful Christians observe Christmas with no knowledge of the pagan rites that have invaded it. They believe in "peace on earth, good will toward men".

 

[padredurand]

[non-Baptist posting in Baptist Only area]

[ December 01, 2004, 09:17 AM: Message edited by: Dr. Bob ]

 

[HankD]

He himself used Roman currency bearing Ceaser's image. Ceaser considered himself deity which was blasphemy.

No Jesus did not use gentile money. He asked them to show him a "penny" with the image of Caesar because He did not have one and in order that He could "see it" because He would not touch the unclean thing.

15 Shall we give, or shall we not give? But he, knowing their hypocrisy, said unto them, Why tempt ye me? bring me a penny, that I may see it.
16 And they brought it. And he saith unto them, Whose is this image and superscription? And they said unto him, Caesar's.

Brother DHK this has become a one-upsman-ship duel (although friendly) and I was going to say that I don't normally participate in, but as of late I have indeed.

Hopefully you can recognize that a lot of what I am saying and doing is as "the devil's advocate" (yes, I know it's appropriate for me) in our annual "Christmas is from heck" debate.

I'm through for now, believe whatever you want, whether inconsistent, an equivocation or both, that is your right as it is mine.

Merry Christmas anyway.

And God bless us everyone.


HankD

 

[DHK]

Hank,
I have enjoyed the discussion. I honestly believe that my position is not inconsistent. However, at the same time it may not be as radical as it appears. I believe more or less along the same lines that Bartimaeus does, when he said:

I do not celebrate Christmas, but I do take time in my life to note the birth of my Saviour. If I get a Christmas card I thank those wonderful folks who thought of our family, if we get a present we are likewise thankful. I have a big issue with RC Doctrine and the "church" that goes with it...

I also believe that this is one of the best seasons to witness to others, especially unsaved relatives, who may be more open to the gospel at this time of the year than at any other.
DHK

 

[HankD]

I have a big issue with RC Doctrine and the "church" that goes with it...

I can identify with what Bartimaeus is saying here being a former Catholic.


HankD

 

[mioque]

padredurand
"Is it too much of a stretch to consider ourselves allied to the Jews through Christ?"
"
Considering those 18+ centuries Anti-Judaïsm Christianity has been through, yes.

 

[Bro. James]

Commanded/Not commanded--

Is it scriptural?

In the "Great Commission", The Church is given a charge: Mt. 28:19-20, "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit: TEACHING THEM TBSERVE ALL THINGS WHATSOEVER I HAVE COMMANDED YOU: and lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world."

"Observing all things commanded" begs the question: Is observing Jesus' birthday commanded? The answer is no.

Does this make teaching the Virgin Birth wrong? Certainly not.

The basic consideration is "conforming". "Be not conformed to this world, but be ye transformed by the renewing of your minds."

Our minds are still basically carnal--our carnality shows up in many ways--especially our worship.

Let us worship God--"in Spirit, and in Truth."

Let us leave the "Mass of Christ" to the heathen and come out from among them and be separate.

Selah,

Bro. James

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

Let us also abandon Christian television, Christian radio, Christian colleges, Christian Internet Forums, etc to the heathen and come out from amomg then and be separate.

 

[HankD]

In the "Great Commission", The Church is given a charge: Mt. 28:19-20, "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit: TEACHING THEM TBSERVE ALL THINGS WHATSOEVER I HAVE COMMANDED YOU: and lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world"

We could all make a list of things which we do in and about our worship that Jesus never commanded us to do.

It's not a closed loop command.

For instance, as many have debated, He never said to meet on the first day of the week every week and bring a tithe offering based upon our wages.

Many have also debated that since He or the apostles never commanded that musical instruments be used in the NT church then they should be abandoned.

On the other hand many (such as the Primitive Baptists) have argued that we have not done what He commanded RE: Footwashing, etc.

Others handle snakes, drink poison, etc.

HankD

 

[TC]

As I see it, God created days. Read Genesis 1. Like everything else that God made, Satan tries to steal it and corrupt it. If Satan has any days, it is because he corrupted what God created and called good. So, why shouldn't we take back the days and use all of them for their intended purpose? We give Satan way to much credit. My Bible tells me that the Earth is the Lord's and all the fullness thereof - including days, time, seasons, years, ect.

 

[DHK]

I don't understand why you people fail to comprehend this most basic concept behind the celbration of Christmas. It has nothing to do with dollar bills, names of days, television, radio, etc. These are all red herrings, and completely off topic.

Christmas is a religious "Christian" festival.
Saturnalia is a pagan religious festival.
One puports to worship the birth of Christ.
The other does worship the sun-god.
The worship of the sun-god originated first, and had incorporated into it yule logs, mistletoe, "Christmas" trees, merry-making, etc. It happened on the 25th of December.

The celebration of the birth of Christ, now called Christmas took all these pagan rituals--the yule log, the mistle toe, the Christmas tree, and a number of others, and incorporated them into their celebration of Christmas, even though they have nothing to do with the birth of Christ. Even the day (Dec. 25) has nothing to do with the birth of Christ.

This is the combination of two religious festivals; two religions; the Christianizatioin of a pagan religion.

It would be the same as if a missionary today went to an Islamic country and took a festival like "id il-adha," a celebration in honor of the sacrifice of Abraham's son, took a sheep and sacrificed it like the Muslims do; shed blood like the Muslims do; give away part of the meat like the Muslims do; and hold a big feast like the Muslims do. The only change they would make is attach a Christian meaning to an Islamic feast and celebration.

If a Baptist missionary did that today, he would be called back by his board and be severly reprimanded. He would be Christianizing Islam, a false relgion. Yet that is exactly what Christians have done with Christmas and the pagan sun god.
DHK

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

Is anyone critical of those who choose not to celebrate Christman? Not I! Since you are fully persuaded in your own mind, don't esteem one day above another and we will all be happy!

 

[HankD]

I don't understand why you people fail to comprehend this most basic concept behind the celbration of Christmas. It has nothing to do with dollar bills, names of days, television, radio, etc. These are all red herrings, and completely off topic.

Again and in different words, the scope of Christianity (at least in my view) goes beyond a religious celebration or any singular event religious or secular but is connected by faith to every moment of one's existance.

...the just shall live by faith...

1 Corinthians 10:31 Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.

HankD