The original.
HankD </font>[/QUOTE]The earliest Greek MSS refer merely to the Water and the Blood, not the Trinity
Yours in Christ
Matt
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is correct trinity belief required for salvation? - it's not in the OT
- Thread starter Aki
- Start date
HankD </font>[/QUOTE]The earliest Greek MSS refer merely to the Water and the Blood, not the Trinity
Yours in Christ
Matt
Alright, the 'earliest'!
Yours in Christ
Matt
Yours in Christ
Matt
Matt, I'm not sure what it is you want.
So, I'll assume you want an explanation from me as to why I believe (underline believe) the Comma is apostolic.
While most scholars look for an explanation as to why it was possibly added (a Latin gloss the usual explanation), I prefer to give my reason as to why it was might have been deleted.
It was perhaps a scribal omission (wilful or otherwise) very early on, perhaps during the first copy of the Greek original but not omitted in the first Itala translation.
HankD
So, I'll assume you want an explanation from me as to why I believe (underline believe) the Comma is apostolic.
While most scholars look for an explanation as to why it was possibly added (a Latin gloss the usual explanation), I prefer to give my reason as to why it was might have been deleted.
It was perhaps a scribal omission (wilful or otherwise) very early on, perhaps during the first copy of the Greek original but not omitted in the first Itala translation.
HankD
Thanks! That's what I wanted. Don't necessarily agree with it, but I understand your reasoning
Yours in Christ
Matt
Yours in Christ
Matt
Craig, you seem to be arguing around the obligation that God has placed upon all Christians to "test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world" (1 Jn. 4:1). For you to be unwilling to admit that unrepenant Gnostics (who denied the humanity of Christ) are now in hell seems to imply something about your soteriology. By not saying that unrepenant Gnostics are now in hell forevermore, you seem to be saying that someone can deny the full humanity of Christ and still go to heaven. Is that what you are assering?
Further, just because God did not ask you for your judgment on the salvation of the Gnostics when He pronounced His judgment upon them doesn't mean that He has relieved you (and me) from the Christian obligation to discern the spiritual condition of others (see below).
That's a great way of saying, "I'm not about to take a stand on this issue." If you're not even willing to confess that unrepenant Muslims, J.W.'s, and Mormons are fast bound on their way to hell, then it's no wonder that you stand on the wrong side of the origins issue. Like I said earlier, if you don't even know that an unrepentant Muslim, J.W., or Mormon is lost, then you have no need of even attempting to reach them with the Gospel do you. For that matter (if we follow your "not my place to judge" logic out to its end), you wouldn't really know who to present the Gospel to would you? I mean, if you can't possibly discern the spiritual conditions of those who are lost, then how could you possibly know who to share the Gospel with?
Can't say I follow you on this one. You begin your remarks by saying that "there are times when Christians need to discern the spiritual condition of others," then you end your remarks by saying "I believe that it is contrary to the teaching of the Bible to say that Christians should use their discernment to adjudicate the spiritual condition of others." That sounds a little like double talk: Either Christians should discern the spiritual condition of others, or they shouldn't because the Bible prohibits it - which one is it?
You cite Mt. 7:1 to make your case, but did you read on in the Sermon of the Mount to find Jesus saying these words: "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles?...Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Therefore by their fruits you will know them." Plainly, Jesus was saying that His followers were to determine the false prophets to be lost and deserving of hell. And how would they know that? By observing their fruit (the works of their hands, the words of their mouths, the doctrines they profess, etc.).
Now, based on your understanding of the Bible (leave all judging to God), we would have no basis by which we could label anyone a false teacher could we? Further, we certainly couldn't discern whether someone was deserving of hell, though Christ said that such discernment belonged to us?
The foundational problem here is that I think you misuse Mt. 7:1 to mean that there is never a time when it is appropriate for me to say that someone/others is/are lost. Mt. 7:1 does not disallow the right of making moral and spiritual judgments about others, but it simply forbids a bitter, hostile, and unkind spirit which delights in finding fault with others by making pre-conceived judgments not grounded in genuine spiritual discernment. If your interpretation of Mt. 7:1 is to carry over into every sphere of Christian life (leave all judging to God), then can you explain the following verses:
1 Cor. 2:15 - "But he who is spiritual judges all things..."
Phi. 3:2 - "Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the mutilation."
1 Jn. 4:1 - "Test the spirits, whether they are of God..."
My point is simply this: If you say (as you did above) that Christians are to never use their spiritual discernment to adjudicate the spiritual condition of others, then why did Christ, Paul, and John each command that we do so? If we don't do such spiritual adjudication, then how we will ever be able to somehow discern who are our brothers and sisters in Jesus Christ?
Craigbythesea
Well-Known Member
Todd,
It appears to me that there is an education barrier between us. I have made a good and faithful effort to answer your questions, but you have radically misunderstood my answers. Any further answers on my part are not likely to aid your understanding.
My God richly bless you!
CBTS
It appears to me that there is an education barrier between us. I have made a good and faithful effort to answer your questions, but you have radically misunderstood my answers. Any further answers on my part are not likely to aid your understanding.
My God richly bless you!
CBTS
Todd,
I believe that I can offer some respite on CBTS's position. Due to Craig's low view of the integrity of Scripture, every aspect of his theology is flawed-much of it false. It is quite obvious that Craig is much more in line with the univeraslist than the christian. And yes, Craig, there is a vast dfference. Very clearly Jesus stated that He is the way the truth and the life. No one will enter Heaven but thru Him.
For CBTS it is not an educational barrier as he implies, it is a spiritual barrier- neo-orthodoxy, hyper liberalism, etc.
If you believe wrong about Jesus- the very core of your belief system is corrupt.
I believe that I can offer some respite on CBTS's position. Due to Craig's low view of the integrity of Scripture, every aspect of his theology is flawed-much of it false. It is quite obvious that Craig is much more in line with the univeraslist than the christian. And yes, Craig, there is a vast dfference. Very clearly Jesus stated that He is the way the truth and the life. No one will enter Heaven but thru Him.
For CBTS it is not an educational barrier as he implies, it is a spiritual barrier- neo-orthodoxy, hyper liberalism, etc.
If you believe wrong about Jesus- the very core of your belief system is corrupt.
Craigbythesea
Well-Known Member
My beliefs about Jesus and his atonement are in all likelihood more conservative than yours. I am a Conservative Baptist and we hold to an ultra-conservative view of the person and work of Christ.
As for Noah's boat, that is a different story (pun intended). But, of course, you do not know what my personal beliefs are about that either.