Is Dispensationalism Elitist?

But does he?? If so, then the text means something that it did not previous mean and the violates the "cannot mean what it never meant" principle. I don't think it is applied to the church at all. I think there is another explanation that preserves the OT text. I am preaching through Hebrews and will get to Hebrews 8 next week or the week after. I will post more formalized comments at that time. In NT usage, the OT usage is still determinative.

I do not think non-dispensationalists are liberal. I think they are wrong, but that is a far cry from liberal. Many dispensationalists are untrained and just parrot what they are told. Many covenantalists are the same way. The more I have studied Scripture, the more Calvinistic I have become and the more dispensational I have become. The same hermeneutic has led to both. I am glad that God will not take his promise to me and give it to someone else. I happen to think he didn't do that with Israel either.

 

I think his words tell us what was in his mind. That is why we must stick with the text. An author will use the words that he believes best communicates his intent. If he thinks they might be misunderstood, he will use different words. If Jeremiah had wanted to give a post mill or amill scheme, there are certainly words he could have used to make that explicit. Why didn't he use them? We should presume that he did not use them becuase he didn't want to say that.

And this is the key hermeneutic I was talking about previously. Take the words at face value. We have no reason to spiritualize the text. It is plainly literalistic.

I would say that there is no solid case from any Scripture that "Israel" ever includes the church. All attempts to prove that depend on the prior concession of that point. I don't think that any texts taken at face value demand that conclusion. Secondly, I don't think the "majority of scholars" means anything. The majority of scholars deny inerrancy. Are we going to give that up as well? I am not.

 

OldRegular,

Please give the point you keep making about Jesus’ finished work a rest. How many posts do I have to write to refute this false accusation you keep making of Dispensationalists. As I said before, stop saying we deny His finished work, and just come out with what you believe He finished, and we’ll contrast that with what I believe He finished. That’s the only way we’re going to get past this particular point, unless you simply want to agree to disagree, which would be fine by me.

You wrote:
I agree that the Bible never speaks of the Messianic Kingdom. That is the invention of dispensationalism and is the reason I have used the term so-called Messianic Kingdom. I would point out, however, that Scripture does speak of the kingdom of His dear Son [Colossians 1:13] into which God places the “True Believer”.

TakeChrist4Life:
This point was already addressed in the previous post. Why didn’t you refute or rebut what I said about this point instead of just repeating yourself here. I mean what are you trying to say here, that the Kingdom of God, the Kingdom of Heaven, and now the Kingdom of His dear Son, are three separate Kingdoms??? Please explain.


You wrote:
However, your statement implying that this so-called Messianic Kingdom, inhabited somewhere in the future by mortal National Israel, which you note above is the same as the Kingdom of God, is incorrect since the Apostle Paul tells us [1 Corinthians 15:50, KJV]: Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Therefore, there can be no Kingdom of God on earth inhabited by mortal man, dispensational eschatology notwithstanding.

TakeChrist4Life:
Now you misstate my position. I never used the phrase mortal National Israel. I said redeemed National Israel. We haven’t even discussed what type of bodies these redeemed ones shall have. You completely contrived your own straw man, then proceeded to tear it down. Please stop, and let’s have an honest discussion.

You Wrote:
I must take issue with your use of Romans 11 to imply that the declaration of Jesus Christ in Matthew 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. is revoked. If all Israel is saved they will be saved one at a time and become one with the Church.

TakeChrist4Life:
I already knew this was what you believed, as you’ve stated it many times. This is the part of the discussion where you prove your beliefs. You’re not proving anything by simply restating your belief. If you took issue with my use of Romans 11, then you should have responded with a better or alternative interpretation of Romans 11 or some other scripture, not just declare that all Israel shall be saved one at a time and become one with the Church.

You wrote:
Also Romans 11 says nothing about national Israel being grafted into the tree whether it represents the Church or Jesus Christ. Only believing Israelites or Jews will be grafted into the tree.

TakeChrist4Life:
Lets see: Romans 11 starts off with the question has God cast away His people. What does that equal= National Israel. You get down to verse 7 and Paul says Israel has not obtained that which he seeketh for. Who does that equal=National Israel. Verse 8, God gives them the spirit of slumber. Who does that equal=National Israel. Verse 9 David said let their table be made a snare. Who does that equal=National Israel. Verse 10 David is still being referenced, and he says Let their eyes be darkened. Who does that equal=National Israel. Verse 11 Paul asks the question have they stumbled that they should fall? Who does that equal=National Israel. Verse 12 Paul says if their fall is the riches of the worlds and their diminishing the riches of the gentiles, then how much more their fullness. Who does that equal=National Israel Verse 14, Paul expresses his desire to provoke them which are his flesh. Who does that equal=National Israel. Verse 15 Paul asks the question if the casting away of them be the reconciliation of the world, what shall the receiving of them be? Who does that equal=National Israel. Just to shorten this part of my post I’ll jump down to verse 23 in which Paul says if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. Who does that equal=National Israel. I could have continued from verse 15 all the way to verse 23 to show you how Paul keeps referencing National Israel. Paul is declaring the whole nation of Israel shall turn to God, and be grafted in again, it won’t just be an individual thing but a corporate thing.

You wrote:
First: I have never claimed that there was any relationship between the Church and National Israel or that the Church replaced National Israel.

TakeChrist4Life:
Fair enough, I’ll detract that statement If you feel it misrepresents you.

You wrote:
Second: I have never indicated that I recognize the future purposes of National Israel as a separate and distinct people outside of the Church The only future for Israel is “repent or perish”.

TakeChrist4Life:
I know you don’t believe this, but the point that I made was that this is a logical deduction from your use of the scripture that talks about the Church judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Why is the Church judging the twelve tribes of Israel, when by your own belief their ethnic distinction is entirely irrelevant to God’s plan and purposes? However this was just an observation on my part, not an issue worth spending too much time over.
It’s just an apparent contradiction that I’m sure you would have no problem reconciling.

You wrote:
Now a couple of questions for you:

1. What Gospel was preached to Abraham? [Galatians 3:8]

2. What city was Abraham looking for? [Hebrews 11:10]

3. What do the following Scripture mean? God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect. [Hebrews 11:40, KJV].

TakeChrist4Life:
1. The gospel of faith
2. A city that has foundations and whose builder and maker is God
3. Exactly what it says. They being those who walked in faith in O.T. times and before the Church was established, should not be made perfect without us, with us referencing those who walk in faith now.

Annnd…..?


You wrote:
One final word. The Apostle Paul notes in Romans 11:1-5 :
1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

I do not doubt that this statement has been true in the 2000 years since the death, resurrection, and ascension of Jesus Christ and is still true today. In fact I have a niece who was gloriously converted from National Judaism to Christianity. That is the only way that any Jew will ever enter the Kingdom of God.


TakeChrist4Life:
That is true for this Dispensation.

 

Rom. 11:17. But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, 18. do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
19. You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in."
20. Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21. for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
22. Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.

Eph. 3:1. For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for the sake of you Gentiles--
2. if indeed you have heard of the stewardship of God's grace which was given to me for you;
3. that by revelation there was made known to me the mystery, as I wrote before in brief.
4. By referring to this, when you read you can understand my insight into the mystery of Christ,
5. which in other generations was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit;
6. to be specific, that the Gentiles are fellow heirs and fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel,
7. of which I was made a minister, according to the gift of God's grace which was given to me according to the working of His power.
8. To me, the very least of all saints, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unfathomable riches of Christ,
9. and to bring to light what is the administration of the mystery which for ages has been hidden in God who created all things;
10. so that the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known through the church to the rulers and the authorities in the heavenly places.
11. This was in accordance with the eternal purpose which He carried out in Christ Jesus our Lord,
12. in whom we have boldness and confident access through faith in Him.

(All scriptures NASB, 1995)

 

FYI....

Who is: carlaimpinge? And what was the reason for the post?........TO SELL BOOKS AND MAKE MONEY BY CREATING YET ANOTHER FALSE DOCTRINE ABOUT THE END TIMES!!!!!

His profile: Preacher, Author


Carl W. Denson is an ordained Independent Baptist preacher, who lives in Montgomery, Ala. He is the owner of Midweek Publishing, which produces his books, pamphlets, commentaries, and tracts.

THE MIDWEEK COMMENTARY SERIES by Carl W. Denson
A tentative date of December 2004 is given for release.

This book is not only a THESIS of the Midweek Rapture, with charts, diagrams, and explanations contained therein, along with a SYSTEMATIC presentation of the doctrine; but it is also set AGAINST the modern day “heresy” of the prewrath rapture, identifying the errors and distortions of scripture, as taught by its promoters.

I find the purpose of the post offensive and believe it should be deleted.

 

Trailblazer,

Yeah, the truth is though ain't it?

To answer your question biblically, it's found in 1 Cor.13:6.

Charity REJOICETH in the TRUTH. Paul wasn't NICE to those who didn't TEACH his doctrine. (See Hymie and Phil in 2 Tim.2) How bout dat? Study to show thyself approved.......

Thanks for your commentary which totally DISREGARDS 2 Tim.2.

You've got to be kidding. Love and soulwinning alone? What are you gonna' teach them AFTER THEY ARE SAVED? Ring around the rosey? It should be DOCTRINE. (1 Tim.4:16)

Don't confuse anger with disgust.

Rapture "theories" come and go, but Pauline teaching was REVEALED (See his epistles), apostasized from (2 Tim.1), and was REILLUMINATED for the last days SO THE BODY COULD DEPART FROM IT AGAIN! (2 Tim.4) It's a God ALLOWED biblical precedent which you ignored.

Book sales are slow, but that's to be expected with so much apostasy. Thanks for enquiring.

I speak out AGAINST homosexuality anywhere I am.

Have a lovely day. (Isn't that sweet?)

 

trailblazer,

Where's YOUR charity and tolerance, brother?

No free speech for me because YOU ARE OFFENDED about what I said.

I didn't post ANYTHING about selling books. YOU DID. You don't know the purpose of the post UNLESS you are a mindreader and are in VIOLATION of 1 Cor.4:5.

Don't be like the Jews who didn't TOLERATE what Paul said. (See Acts 17)

Have a little "bit" of luv in your ole heart. (Jer.17:19)

 

I stand by the posts. I did my research beforehand.

 

I stand by mine also which DEMONSTRATE COMPLETELY that you BROUGHT UP the issue, not me.

Your research was FAULTY, FANCIFUL, and FOOLISH, as your "proof" that the doctrinal truth which I subscribe to is "false doctrine".

Hot air, brother. (See Job for comments about guys such as that.)

The non-offensive lingo comes from those out to DESTROY you.

Romans 16:18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.

Good day.

 

Old Regular,

I will address you since you're speaking about me (heartreading!) while continuing to publiclly deny biblical truth, along with your fictitious assertions about myself and farsical statements.

You MUST NOT like Paul's writing to Hymie and Phil, IF you think what I said was HATRED. Plain talk is not hatred no matter how much it beats you around the ears. (Vessels of dishonour? Ooh, that got them!)

Dispensationalism was GIVEN by Paul throughout his epistles. I posted the verses WAY BACK in the thread which was not reponded to. (Typical)

My post of hatred (according to you) CONCERNED the reillumination of PAULIINE DISPENSATIONALISM. (Read those words)

Brother, you shouldn't try to tell others WHAT I BELIEVE unless you know what I teach. Your hypothetical slam is just INANE DIVERSION for suckers.

The churches BEFORE Darby were IGNORANT of truth which RESURFACED. (Hey Martin, how did you get in there?) I covered these items earlier which are ignored. (ignorance?) THEY DIDN'T HAVE all the knowledge of the truth AS Paul had it.

Illumination of the scriptures comes from the Holy Spirit. (1 Cor.2) YOU CAN GET the knowledge of the truth from the Scriptures AS PAUL HAD IT, "if" you believe them.

Darby was not appeared to brother by Michael, Gabriel, or MORONI. (The moron Mormon angel?) That's you DISAGREEING with Pauline DISPENSATIONALISM which is biblical. Hey, I'm not kidding. It's a BIBLE WORD.

Now, you're gonna' vaunt your spirituality above mine and CREATE the illusion that I have called believers unsaved because they didn't believe something? Good grief.

A liar is a man who tells a lie. Stating that Darby INVENTED dispensationalism is a BALD FACED LIE. People were dispensational BEFORE Darby. That has been proven and seen on this thread. Hey, LOOK IN YOUR BIBLE.

Nobody has called any believer UNSAVED. That's PURE hogwash.

Apostasy is a falling away from the truth. (2 Thess.2) ANYONE can be involved in apostasy. (Heb.6, 2 Tim.4) How can your spot them? Easy. They TEACH heresy. It's a WORK OF THE FLESH. (See Gal.5, 1 Cor.11)

Some believers FULFILL THE LUST OF THE FLESH, while unbelievers "certainly" do.

Some of your remarks should certainly be "canned".

AGAIN, nobody's salvation was questioned. That's just a "mind game" presented by yourself to SILENCE another believer.

Good day.

 

Why am I offended?

And what are all these "rapture" theories about in my opinion? "For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the pride of life, is not of the Father but is of the world." (1 John 2:16) Books! - money from books, huge television ego's,and power!

Why are booksellers that expound these unsound doctrines so popular amongst so many that have been lead astray? Because they have taken their eyes off Christ and what their primary mission is on earth - to preach Christ's salvation message to the lost until he return.

Notice I said was what our "job" here is because it is really, really, very simple - our "JOB" is to bring souls to Christ. That was what Christ did while he was here on earth. That was what the Great Commission says explicitly and in a simple manner as to what our "JOB is to be until He returns!"

Now, think about this for one moment - we instead get so bogged down in the quagmire of just "HOW" He is coming back when it should be very clear to us that scripture does not explicitly tell us the "HOW!" Why? BECAUSE IT IS NOT OUR "JOB" - IT IS HIS JOB!. Christ will not be asking any one of us to help him with the resurrection! Let me repeat this again. HE WILL NOT NEED YOUR HELP! Your one job is to save souls - not give them manufactured theories that they don't have any hand in whatsoever!

Now, I ask you this - Just who is the audience of the booksellers marketing to? The saved or the unsaved? If it is the unsaved, you are preaching the WRONG MESSAGE - they need the message of salvation. Are you trying to reach the saved in your books about HOW Christ is going to return? Again, we don't need to know the details - Christ won't be needing our help with that part! So, why market books that don't really do ANYBODY any good? Must be just to make money on Christ, you think?

 

Again,...So, why market books that don't really do ANYBODY any good? Must be just to make money on Christ, you think?

Consider the words of Christ himself. "...and Jesus went up to Jerusalem. In the temple he found those who were selling oxen and sheep and pigeons, and the money-changers at their business. And making a whip of cords, he drove them all, with the sheep and oxen, out of the temple; and he poured out the coins of the money-changers and overturned their tables. And he told those who sold the pigeons, "Take these things away; you shall not make my Father's house a house of trade."

Now Christ cleasend the temple twice of those who sought profit, but not three times. The third cleansing will be upon his return.

 

OldRegular,

I checked yours again also and noted the "malice" in your heart. I mean IF you can see hatred IN MINE, surely malice can be seen IN YOURS. (What's good for the goose, is good for the gander, Gertie.)

Yeah, that's what Jehudi thought AFTER he read Jeremiah's WORDS, the words of the Lord. (Jer.36)

That's the reason for my post of disgust. (Bible bungling Baptists)

Continue on with your fantasy.

 

What is sad though is how many Southern Baptist leaders have embraced dispensationalism. I am glad to see that at least a number of the dispensationalists have moved from where they were to a historical contextual method of interpretation.

One of the professors I had at SWBTS told me once that if you have people coming at you from both sides you are probably where you should be. Isn't that what happened to Jesus.

Even though I disagree with a lot of dispensationalism many dispensationalists are my my friends. It is always good to be challenged. It makes us sharper and learn how to deal with disagreements as we should in a manner that glorifies God.

 

But GB9

Now sometimes when I have people coming at me from all directions it's because I'm wrong sometimes too!

I've had that happen more than I care to admit!

 

I haven’t read any of these books you are talking about, only the bible for many years now. I’ve found eschatology and dispensationalist views to be very misleading and the only purpose I have for them is to get me digging into scripture. This mindset has made it hard to fit in for fellowship at times, although, I do get invited to studies and have lots to add in the way of quoting scripture. This is what scripture tells me about the subject:

A warning:

8Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. 9For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

What if everyone did it?

17If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?

Some wisdom:

That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; 15But speaking the truth in love,

Should I walk in their path?

7This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind, 18Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart: 19Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.

Do I need them:

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

4But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;

No thanks, no brainwashing for me!

 

I disagree as you might suspect ... I can't think of any passage where a new meaning is demanded. A new meaning is seen only if you bring presuppositions to the passage. And when you do that, you violate the whole historical context you keep arguing that dispensationalists don't see (which they do see). The OT passages have a historical context that determines meaning. The NT usage does not, yea even cannot, violate that meaning. "Fulfill" (plerow) has a wide range in the NT, from strict fulfillment to illustrative or analogical.

Craig, Neither Rom 11 nor Eph 3 uses "Israel" in reference to the church. Most commentators seem to agree that "Israel" in Rom 9-11 is always ethnic, although that is, IMO, the most difficult passage for dispensationalists in the Bible. Ephesians 3 is a reference to the body of Christ, which is fundamentally distinct from OT Israel.