Is Eating Pork Wrong?

[faithgirl46]

In Lev 11 God says that we should not eat rats, cats, dogs and bats.

In Isaiah 66 He says that those who eat rats will suffer the wrath of God in fire and brimstone.

I vote that we pay attention to the word of God - "the maker" says that rats cats dogs and bats "are not food" for us.



Is God saying that we SHOULD be eating the rats, cats, snakes and bats IF someone "sets them before us" to eat?

ARe they GOOD for you when "someone sets them before you"??

In Isaiah 66 God says he will "destroy" those who desecrate their body by eating such things. Did He mean "except if someone sets these mice before you to eat"??

Brother Bob,
Are we stil sinning if we are unaaare that the food we are eating is rats, cats, or dogs? Thank you.
Faithgirl

 

[EdSutton]

Do you know what is usually the difference between someone who is on "skid row" and a legalistic 'Christain' is ?

The "skid row" 'bum' is a wino; the legalist is a 'whine-o' bum.

Ed

 

[BobRyan]

Brother Bob,
Are we stil sinning if we are unaaare that the food we are eating is rats, cats, or dogs? Thank you.
Faithgirl

Christ says "you say you see - so your sin remains" - so I would agree with you that those who do not see rats and cats as something God forbids as food - may not have the guilt at some level. But the same goes for idolatry.

However the disease coming from "not eating food" would still apply to those who eat rats and the damage done to the soul and the view of God that is done through idolatry would still be there.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[gekko]

17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

sin is the transgression of the law. and christians have a hard time figuring out which law.

which law was put into the ark of the covenant? what are the oracles that were given to the jewish people? what did Jesus speak about in most of the sermon on the mount? what did paul emphasize on in galations 5? romans 6-8? what did John talk about in revalation about who was going to the lake of fire and why?

i'll let you answer that. i know the answer. i've done research on it.
i'll give you a hint:

the answer contains only three simple words.

 

[BobRyan]

Last time I checked, a pig wasn't a bat.

If you're going to observe the whole of the levitical code, you must also...

-not wear a poly/cotton or any blend shirt (Leviticus 19:19)
-destroy your oven if it has ever cooked an unclean animal (Leviticus 11:35)

Ya'll made me stop eating a hot dog to answer this thread. :tongue3:

In Genesis 6 we see that the "clean/unclean" distinction was in existence prior to the writing of the book of Leviticus -- so it is infact much simpler than you suppose.

But remember the "Goal" is not to find ways to ignore the Word of God -- right?

Also note that in Isaiah 66 you see a "future" where God is pouring out fire and brimstone on all mankind (something we see in Rev 20) and in that future - God punishes those who eat mice.

If you have some "future hell" for those who wear cotton - listed in scripture - feel free to show it.

Otherwise I am not going to equivocate between laws that were in existence before Israel and ARE enforced AFTER the NT age -- and those that are not.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Inquiring Mind]

This whole argument is really moot.

We are no longer under the Old Testament law.

The Old covenant has indeed been abolished

2 Cor 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.

Heb. 7:18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.

Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

Heb 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

 

[BobRyan]

If we can slice up our Bible so that it no longer has 66 books - just 27 (the NT) the question is -- should we ALSO slice out the 4 gospels recording the doctrinal positions of God PRIOR to the Cross??

Some would say "YES YES" --

I say no to both!

Christ is "THE SAME" yesterday today and forever. God says "I DO NOT CHANGE therefore you are not destroyed" Mal 3:6.

Paul says "DO we then MAKE VOID the Law of God by our faith?? God forbid!! In fact we ESTABLISH the LAW of God" Rom 3:31.

Christ said that "Those who say that the law of God can be broken and SO teaches others will be called least in the kingdom of God" Matt 6.

I am thinking these sources "can be believed".

 

[Jim1999]

Just maybe, some understand scripture rightly in its proper historical contex. If we ignore the historical values, we ignore fact.

I haven't seen anyone take the scissors to the Bible yet. Does someone have an over imaginative mind overemployed?

Cheers,

Jim

I wear shoes and not sandals, trousers and not robes.

 

[BobRyan]

Just maybe, some understand scripture rightly in its proper historical contex. If we ignore the historical values, we ignore fact.

I haven't seen anyone take the scissors to the Bible yet. .

What a great thing - hopefully all here can agree to keeping the 66.

I would be greatly surprised to see them all accept it - but who knows -- it could happen!

 

[LeBuick]

Back to the thread topic, if eating pork is wrong then I don't want to be right... JK

But I would have to cancel my BBQ sauce of the month membership....

 

[BobRyan]

Back to the thread topic, if eating pork is wrong then I don't want to be right... JK

But I would have to cancel my BBQ sauce of the month membership....

Interesting.

Then in Lev 11 God makes some kind of statement about "what is food".

You have to admit that the devotion we see to pork on THIS thread is also expressed in some parts of Asia and the far east for the rats, cats, dogs and bats!

I am sure "they too" would not want to be right - eh?

The question is - do they try it with BBQ sauce?

 

[Brother Bob]

what about skunk?

 

[gekko]

lol - the old testament is done away with - lol.
you've taken that scripture right out of context.

in the latter verse it explains life in Christ: liberty.

we are not under the law. the law has chased us to calvary - and it has not chased us past that. why? because it has been written on our conscience. the law will always be with us.

i do not believe eating pork is sin.

none of you have answered my previous question yet...

 

[LeBuick]

Then in Lev 11 God makes some kind of statement about "what is food".

You have to admit that the devotion we see to pork on THIS thread is also expressed in some parts of Asia and the far east for the rats, cats, dogs and bats!

I am sure "they too" would not want to be right - eh?

The question is - do they try it with BBQ sauce?

Are you implying you only eat Kosher meats? That you only eat meats prepared under the supervision of a Rabbi? How about shell fish? I mean if you obey one part (pork) of the law then shouldn't you obey the entire law? Do you eat leveaned bread?

Now, let's go NT.

1 Timothy 4:2-5 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:
5 For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

Colossians 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

Romans 14:2-4 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.
3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.
4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

1 Corinthians 8:8 But meat commendeth us not to God: for neither, if we eat, are we the better; neither, if we eat not, are we the worse.

1 Corinthians 10:25-27 25 Whatsoever is sold in the shambles, that eat, asking no question for conscience sake:
26 For the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof.
27 If any of them that believe not bid you to a feast, and ye be disposed to go; whatsoever is set before you, eat, asking no question for conscience sake.

Then there was the time before the ecclesiastical law which was under the priest hood of Melchizedek. I mention this because Paul says, "Hebrews 7:17 For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec. "

Genesis 9:3 Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things.

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by BobRyan
Then in Lev 11 God makes some kind of statement about "what is food".

You have to admit that the devotion we see to pork on THIS thread is also expressed in some parts of Asia and the far east for the rats, cats, dogs and bats!

I am sure "they too" would not want to be right - eh?

The question is - do they try it with BBQ sauce?

Are you implying you only eat Kosher meats? That you only eat meats prepared under the supervision of a Rabbi? How about shell fish? I mean if you obey one part (pork) of the law then shouldn't you obey the entire law? Do you eat leveaned bread?

Now, let's go NT.

This is a common argument of the form "The OT has a bunch of bad ideas in it - surely we don't want ANYTHING from that part of God's Word do we? If we take some part of it then we will have to pay attention to all of it and - that means paying attention to all those bad ideas.

Let's just ignore it and only pay attention the 27 books of the NT!

After all God sent His Son to save us from Sin AND to have us from His OT Word"


We will now look and see if the NT authors agree with that slash-and-burn approach to the OT.

But first I want to look at the OT (PRE-CROSS) teaching of God (who does not change) as we find it in the book of Mark and a PRE-CROSS teaching of God.

Mark 7
6 And He said to them, ""Rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written: " THIS PEOPLE HONORS ME WITH THEIR LIPS[/b], BUT THEIR HEART IS FAR AWAY FROM ME.
7 " BUT IN VAIN DO THEY WORSHIP ME, TEACHING AS DOCTRINES THE PRECEPTS OF MEN.'
8 ""Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.''
9 He was also saying to them, ""You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition.[/b]
10 ""For Moses said, " HONOR YOUR FATHER AND YOUR MOTHER[/b]'; and, " HE WHO SPEAKS EVIL OF FATHER OR MOTHER, IS TO BE PUT TO DEATH';
11 but you say, "If a man says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is to say, given to God),'
12 you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or his mother;
13 thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.''

Christ insists that we can NOT MIX the man-made-traditions of the Jews WITH the OT Word of God can call it all "God's WORD" as some often do today.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

So before we go around saying that the Creator did not know what He was talking about in Lev 11 as HE defined what animals are "for food" and what animals (rats, cats, snakes, dogs, horses and bats) are NOT for food...

We need to take a hard look at what the NT authors said about the OT text of God's Word and how we should NOT ignore it!

Matt 5:17-22
17 Think not that I am come to[b] destroy the law[/b], or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Instead of “less obedience” to each commandment of Christ the Creator – God calls for “more”.

Matt 5:27-28 27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

Instead of “less obedience” to each commandment of Christ the Creator – God calls for “more”. No wonder Paul says --

Romans 3:31 [b]“Do we then abolish the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we Establish the Law of God”[/b]

So lets see. The law will not change in even the minutest way, till heaven and earth pass. Anyone who breaks the law, and teaches others to do so, will be called the least in the kingdom of heaven. Thinking about committing sin is now just like actually committing the sin. Ah, the law has been magnified. Christ came and fulfilled the law, observing all of it’s commands, even in thought, not just action.

Yes, lets let the scriptures speak for themselves.

John 15:10-11 10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.

John 14:15 (quoting from the 10 commandments) “IF you love Me Keep My commandments”

Christ quotes from the 3rd commandment for the statement above.

Christ said that HIS commandment and the Father’s Commandment are one and the same

John 12:50
"I know that His commandment is eternal life; therefore the things I speak, I speak just as the Father has told Me."

Notice that John promotes this theme not only with his recording the pre-cross statements of Christ the hCreator – but also the post –cross teaching.

I Jn 2:3-4 3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.


Matt 19:17 17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Christ condemns those who would break the Commandments of God for the sake of man-made tradition –

Matthew 15:3
And He answered and said to them, "Why do you yourselves transgress the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition?

Christ’s followers continue to keep the Sabbath commandment after His command that they should “Love Me and Keep My Commandments” John 14:15 (quoting from the 3rd commandment in Exodus 20)

Luke 23:56
Then they returned and prepared spices and perfumes. And on the Sabbath they rested according to the commandment.

Why do the Gospel writers take such care to teach us what Christ commanded them?

Matt 28:
18Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

Notice that John does not try to “divide God” as if God’s commandments are not Christ’s

I Jn 5:2-3 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Rev 12:17 17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Rev 14:12 12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Rev 22:14 14[b] Blessed are they that do his commandments,[/b] that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

 

[BobRyan]

In Gen 6 and 8 we see the distinction of "Clean vs Unclean" used pre-Cross.

The Clean animals go into the ark by 7's and the unclean by 2's.

So when Noah comes out of the ark - there are STILL more concentrations of any one clean species than any one unclean.

That part is obvious.

But what about plants - are all plant edible?? Or are SOME good for food and OTHERS down right poisonous??

That answer is also obvious.

The division exists for BOTH plants and animals. Some are food and some are not.

Gen 9

3 "Every moving thing that is alive shall be food for you; I give all to you, as I gave the green plant. /

Here we see in Genesis 6 the pre-sinai disctinction between clean and unclean carried over onto the ark and coming out of the ark!

In Lev 11 we see the distinction is continued at Sinai.

In Gen 9 we see that just as the plants are divided - some for food and some not - so also the clean/unclean distinction provides that same line for animals.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Now, let's go NT.

1 Timothy 4:2-5 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:
5 For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

Some would argue that we SHOULD be eating rats, cats, dogs, horses and bats and NOT to do so would be to violate God's command to eat them.

But Lev 11 makes it clear what "the CREATOR" says is "FOOD" as He says "THESE are FOOD" and points them out.

Further - Isaiah 66 shows that this remains even until the future point of the Rev 20 lake of fire and brimstone where God punishes those who eat mice FOR doing it!

Colossians 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

This is an issue of "judging others" - but is not a command to ignore God's Word the way many have taken it today.

1 Cor 8 and 10 we are shown that the NT issue of meat has to do with "meat that is for food" that has been offerred to idols.

(Recall that in Acts 15 they are actually forbidden from eating meat offerred to idols)

Romans 14:2-4 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.
3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.
4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

Note - there is "NO" OT command to "eat vegetables only" so this is not an issue between Jews and Gentiles and is not an issue that is solved by doing a slash-and-burn of the OT.

The Vegetable vs meat issue is explained clearly in 1Cor 8 and 11 by Paul.

1 Corinthians 8
1 Now concerning things sacrificed to idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge makes arrogant, but love edifies.
2 If anyone supposes that he knows anything, he has not yet known as he ought to know;
3 but if anyone loves God, he is known by Him.
4 Therefore concerning the eating of things sacrificed to idols, we know that there is no such thing as an idol in the world, and that there is no God but one.
5 For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords,
6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.
7 However not all men have this knowledge; but some, being accustomed to the idol until now, eat food as if it were sacrificed to an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled.
8 But food will not commend us to God; we are neither the worse if we do not eat, nor the better if we do eat.
9 But take care that this liberty of yours does not somehow become a stumbling block to the weak.
10 For if someone sees you, who have knowledge, dining in an idol's temple, will not his conscience, if he is weak, be strengthened to eat things sacrificed to idols?
11 For through your knowledge he who is weak is ruined, the brother for whose sake Christ died.
12 And so, by sinning against the brethren and wounding their conscience when it is weak, you sin against Christ.
13 Therefore, if food causes my brother to stumble, I will never eat meat again, so that I will not cause my brother to stumble

In the 1 Cor 8 example the “Jew” is the one that KNOWS there is only one REAL God. The gentile is the one who thinks that the idols are competing gods.

This is the ONLY NT text giving us "detail" on the "VEGETABLES ONLY" Vs "Meat" controversy vs "eating Meat"! And it is clearly NOT a Lev 11 issue!

This is the ONLY text in the NT explaining how it is that "he who HAS faith" and knowledge can possibly wound the one who "eats vegetables only".

This then is the CONTEXT for the SAME points being discussed in Romans 14.

 

[BobRyan]

Are you implying you only eat Kosher meats? That you only eat meats prepared under the supervision of a Rabbi? How about shell fish? I mean if you obey one part (pork) of the law then shouldn't you obey the entire law? Do you eat leveaned bread?

Having said all that -- "under supervision of Rabbi" is not in Lev 11. But you make a good point that IF we ARE going to pay any attention at all to God's Word telling us not to eat rats, cats, dogs, horses and bats then we will be stuck having to pay attention to what He says about shell fish as well.

I agree completely.

We just need to decide what do do with God's Word.

Matt 5:17-22
17 Think not that I am come to[b] destroy the law[/b], or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Christ's approach to His own OT Word was always to "strengthen" the obligation and authority of what He said - never to abolish it.

 

[Alcott]

what about skunk?

You're speaking on your own behalf, I presume.