Is Everything Predestined?

[37818]

I can see how you might arrive at that. A lot would depend on what people have told you about the atonement already. So I'm not going to knock you for that. Most Reformed Baptists would have no trouble telling you that "Christ has died" and salvation is available if you will come to Him. I, myself, have no trouble telling you "Christ has died for you". But I'm not a theologian, just a civilian so to speak. I am not totally convinced of the "L" in the TULIP. But none of that matters. if Christ Himself has told you to come to him.

Again, it comes down to understanding Christ paid for one's sins. Romans 3:8.

 

[MrW]

I must be predestined not to believe in predestination.

 

[Silverhair]

If there is one tiny thing, one molecule, outside of God's absolute control, then He ceases to be Almighty God.
I think it was your own lovely Ben Franklin who wrote:
'For want of a nail, the shoe was lost;
For want of a shoe, the horse was lost;
For want of a horse, the rider was lost;
For want of a rider the battle was lost;
For want of a battle, the kingdom was lost;
And all for the want of a horseshoe nail.'

But God is totally in control of His universe: 'Remember the former things of old, for I am God and there is no other; I am God and there is none like Me, declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things that are not yet done, saying, "My counsel will stand, and I will do all my pleasure," calling a bird of prey from the east, the man [Cyrus] who executes Mt counsel, from a far country, Indeed, I have spoken it; I will also bring it to pass. I have purposed it,; I will also do it.' Isaiah 46:9-11.

But God's control is far more subtle than some here give Him credit for. He has ordered all things according to His good pleasure without interfering with man's 'free will.' If anyone can't see howw He does that, it just shows that he is not as clever as God is (Genesis 50:20; 1 Kings 22:34; Acts of the Apostles 4:27-28).

If anyone can not see that the Calvinist version of God's control leads to Him being the author of all evil and sin then they are just being willfully blind. Wait, that can't be true as Calvinists every though and move is determined by that sovereign God of their own making so He has blinded them to the truth for His own special purpose.

 

[AustinC]

If anyone can not see that the Calvinist version of God's control leads to Him being the author of all evil and sin then they are just being willfully blind. Wait, that can't be true as Calvinists every though and move is determined by that sovereign God of their own making so He has blinded them to the truth for His own special purpose.

This is your humanist conclusion as you continually feel at liberty to judge God.

 

[AustinC]

I must be predestined not to believe in predestination.

As is most of the world. The world is humanist and sees themselves as ruler above God. Does that cause you any trepidation?

 

[AustinC]

Why are you asking me? I didn't say either way.

My only disagreement with your post here is that I believe men chose to reject what was revealed to them of God and that all are guilty. You don't believe men have that capacity to choose, therefore posses no true guilt for rejecting God

When it comes to men making their choices but God controlling the outcome, well ...I have no problem with those passages.

Do you cut them out of your Bible, strike through them with a pen, or simply ignore them?

John the curse of the Covenant brought corruption that leaves men incapable and unwilling to repent. It's not a free choice that men have. They are born in sin, enslaved to sin. What, about slavery, would ever suggest freedom?

 

[Alan Gross]

I can see how you might arrive at that. A lot would depend on what people have told you about the atonement already. So I'm not going to knock you for that. Most Reformed Baptists would have no trouble telling you that "Christ has died" and salvation is available if you will come to Him. I, myself, have no trouble telling you "Christ has died for you". But I'm not a theologian, just a civilian so to speak. I am not totally convinced of the "L" in the TULIP. But none of that matters if Christ Himself has told you to come to him.

I mentioned before that to say, "Jesus Christ died for sinners like you (and I)" covers it (without giving the impression there was a general atonement, which can lull people into thinking that there is no problem WITH THEIR SOUL that they have to deal with, "since Jesus died for them", etc./ and yet 37818 is a proponent of a general atonement, I believe, so he'd probably skip considering that unless he wants to consider considering that. Dunno.)

And, since the Bible was Predestined by God (per the O.P) and is "profitable for doctrine", I'll c&p this real quick, for our joint-edification, and start a new thread if it gets out of kilter:

They used to (12/12/04) call it, "Lying"!! from: Lying Words By J. L. Reynolds

"6.) "The sixth instance of ‘lying words is the misrepresentation of the extent of Christ’s atonement.

"Much of the so-called Christian world will emphatically and insistently declare that when the Lord Jesus Christ suffered the wrath of God due unto a people and that He did so for all of creation. They claim that when the full and unrestrained wrath of God fell on the Lord Jesus Christ that it was for every human that would ever live...

"The so-called Christian world is often quick to point out that:

"(John 3:16) "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (Note: we see this here on BB all the time, i.e., today) and other such Scriptures which at first glance seem to teach a universal atonement. However, the contradictions of such a universal atonement teaching are legion.

"We are well aware that the Holy Spirit inspired the use of the Greek word which would be translated ‘world’ in the Scriptures but we would implore our listeners to earnestly seek to know what that word ‘world’ means in its’ each individual Scriptural usage.

"Does ‘world’ mean all without exception or all without distinction?"

"The Lord Jesus Christ used the word ‘world’ in declaring for whom He would pray unto the Father.(John 17:9) "I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine."

(Jesus also said, "love not the world, etc.)

"The prophet Isaiah, under divine inspiration, looks forward to the atonement of the Lord Jesus Christ and declares the extent of His substitutionary atonement.

"(Isaiah 53:11-12) "He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

"{12} Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors."

"Surely if anyone knew what the extent of Christ’s atonement was it would be the Lord Jesus Christ Himself. In instituting the commemorative supper which His church was commanded to observe He likens the fully fermented wine to His sinless blood. That is He declares it to be a picture or a representation of His sinless blood. And what is the divine extent of it being shed? That is, what was the designed scope of His atonement?

"(Matthew 26:28) "For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins."

"How could it be made clearer than those words the lips of God incarnate spoke when He declared the scope of His imminent and substitutionary atonement?

"The same declaration is again recorded for our instruction in Mark 14:24.

"(Mark 14:24) "And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many."

"The Lord Jesus Christ spoke of a number of Adam’s fallen posterity which the Father had given Him, in the eternal covenant of redemption, to redeem. He declared that the entirety of that number would come to Him for forgiveness and that He would receive them unto everlasting salvation.

(Note: the clincher)

"(John 6:37) "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out."

"(John 17:1-2) "These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:

"{2} As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him."

"Sometimes men play with words to confuse their hearers and I fear that many of God’s truly redeemed are guilty of playing with words and confusing their hearers, whether intentional or not."

 

[Silverhair]

This is your humanist conclusion as you continually feel at liberty to judge God.

Now now Austin you should not be telling fibs. Since you continue to act like a child I will treat you as such. It is quite obvious that your education has been lacking so we can understand your limited ability to understand complex topics.

 

[Silverhair]

This is your humanist conclusion as you continually feel at liberty to judge God.

You continue to say I judge God but you continue to neglect to post the scripture that supports your idea or to even post the post that I have made where I say that I control God. You do realize that your continued falsehoods on this board are just an indication of your overall inability to tell the truth.

 

[AustinC]

You continue to say I judge God but you continue to neglect to post the scripture that supports your idea or to even post the post that I have made where I say that I control God. You do realize that your continued falsehoods on this board are just an indication of your overall inability to tell the truth.

Sliverhair, people only need to read this thread. They will see what you have said, in your own words, and know I am not lying.

 

[Van]

No. 3c and 4 refute that idea. To know something will happen and yet to allow it to happen when you could have prevented it does make you responsible for it's occurrence WITHOUT making you the cause of it. What makes this hard for us as humans is that our responsibilities are much simpler. God has a whole world to run with all the contingent plans of human acting for and against God's direct declared will for them.

You can present absurdity till the cows come home. Your stated and quoted position is "All things are predestined and ordained by God." Now you make the absurd claim something predestined is not caused.

 

[JonC]

John the curse of the Covenant brought corruption that leaves men incapable and unwilling to repent. It's not a free choice that men have. They are born in sin, enslaved to sin. What, about slavery, would ever suggest freedom?

I am suggesting that Scripture is correct. Beyond that I have not suggested anything.

Men are unwilling to repent, therefore they choose not to repent. It is a matter of the will (the mind set on the flesh). They are unable because they are unwilling.

But this does not mean that they do not choose sin. In fact, aside from the philosophical concept of libertarian free will, it does not mean men lack free will. They freely choose sin.

You mistake the concept of slavery in Scripture. Men are not forced to sin. They are "slaves" to sin because of their will.

This would clear up if we would move from philosophical terms (free will) and stick with biblical terms (the flesh vs the spirit).

 

[Van]

One thing that I have learned from reading a lot of practical Calvinist teachers, those that are Calvinist but actually minister primarily rather than debate, is that the Calvinist theology is BACKGROUND information. It is a mistake to move the theological meanderings and musings to primary doctrinal status. In other words, if you know someone who hears the gospel and rejects it the Calvinist really does believe that they heard the gospel and rejected it. The fact that they were predestined from before time began to do this, according to the little outline I gave above, in no way diminishes the reality of them hearing the gospel and rejecting it. Unfortunately, guys like you don't understand this and so hate Calvinism and I understand that. What's even worse is that many Calvinists don't understand this either and so you see things like Calvinists getting angry when someone simply says they believed, or came to Christ. The fact is they did.

Calvinism is the context used to misinterpret scripture.

We both should hate falsehood, it is just that we disagree on what is false.

The problem is not my understanding of Calvinism, it is the Calvinists understand of scripture.

 

[Van]

Snip
I, as whatever "225-point Calvinist*" I am, get to worship and stand before a God Who's Activity is to be resolved into, and by the Pleasure of His Own Good Sovereign Will, as He has Revealed in His revelation to Mankind, The Bible;
Snip
I believe The Doctrines of Grace, Total Depravity, Unconditional Election, Limited Atonement, Irresistible Grace, and the Perseverance of the Saints, are Eternal.
Snip .

Personal incredulity is fallacious argumentation. I believe the false dogmas of Calvinism are obvious false. That is why you and the other posting Calvinists do not address the passages that demonstrate its falsehoods.

 

[robycop3]

If everything is predestined, Jesus' sacrifice was unnecessary.

 

[DaveXR650]

Now you make the absurd claim something predestined is not caused.

If I see the grandkids throwing a frisbee and I know it's going to end up in the pond and I just watch and sure enough it ends up in the pond. I could have stopped the game but I didn't and because I knew what was going to happen for sure I can say it was predestined. Do you not see the difference between that and me just taking the frisbee and throwing it in the pond myself? This is not rocket science but it does require some ability of abstract thinking.

 

[Van]

Tell me where I am false.
Snip
Was Moses referring to the Covenant God made with Israel at Mt Sinai? (Yes)
Was God speaking of spiritual salvation? (No)
Was God speaking of the consequences of failing to keep the Covenant? (Yes)
Snip
.

Was God only addressing physical well being, or does this statement have spiritual application? God requires that we adhere to His commands or suffer the consequences.

 

[DaveXR650]

If everything is predestined, Jesus' sacrifice was unnecessary.

Here again. If God says you are going to Michigan next Tuesday is it not 100% true and sure that you will go to Michigan next Tuesday? Yes. But is it not also just as true that YOU still MUST actually go to Michigan next Tuesday. Something predestined must still be done. When God decrees something it must actually be done or it isn't done. Predestination means it will be done - not that God does it Himself or that it need not have happened.

 

[DaveXR650]

Some of you guys are going to get on here now and start throwing insults. I am asking you to either refute what I say or admit I have a point. That means you take the examples I have used and refute that scenario or show where my setup is wrong. None of this "Have I said" or "Here you go" or "Typical Calvinist". Now go for it.

 

[Van]

If I see the grandkids throwing a frisbee and I know it's going to end up in the pond and I just watch and sure enough it ends up in the pond. I could have stopped the game but I didn't and because I knew what was going to happen for sure I can say it was predestined. Do you not see the difference between that and me just taking the frisbee and throwing it in the pond myself? This is not rocket science but it does require some ability of abstract thinking.

Yes another attempt to defy reality! Here you substitute allowing something to happen with knowing it will happen. If knowing it will happen predestines the occurrence, then rather than allowing we are establishing cause.