Is "faith" a gift of God's grace

Maybe that's because I am monotheist, although I've never considered the title. Since man doesn't choose Christ, He chooses us there is nothing else that makes any sense to me.
Joh 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
It was God who called me ,God who drew me to Him . It was the Spirit of God that convinced me and convicted me through the gospel. The only thing I chose was to not rebel any longer. Even my own faith was a product of His convincing me of His truth.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
If it truly isn't of our selves, it has to be all of God or, it just wouldn't have happened. I believe the only power man has is to resist Salvation by rebellion. He certainly isn't able to come to God with out being drawn or called. Only those who come to Him with the trust of a child will be saved.
MB

 

Not that I disagree here, in any way, in the overall sense, but I merely mentioned that "Condition of Election" is not specificaly mentioned in Eph. 2:8. Lets not confuse the theology of Ephesians with the exegesis of Eph. 2:8. They are not exactly identical.

Ed

 

Welcome to the Baptist Board.

Ed

 

Monothetism and monotheism are completely different things.

You said,"Even my own faith was a product of His convincing me of His truth." You are correct. God illuminated the Truth to you through the work of His Holy Spirit. God convinced you of Truth through the work of His Holy Spirit, but faith is a decision to believe the Truth you were convinced of. God did not believe for you.

Christ's chosing in John 15 is vocational, not salvation.

 

Wow, MB!!! You nailed it!!

skypair

 

The topic of the thread "Is "faith" a gift of God's grace? The consequences of saying it isn't means that God deserves much credit, but not credit for our faith. I'm not willing to say that.

 

Hello Doc,

Who gave you your IQ?

 

Good Day, L.T Ketchum

Repentace is granted...

2Ti 2:25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;


Repentance first must be granted, before one can repent. Those who are not given (from God) repentance will not nor can they repent.



I was posting reguarding you assertion:

"No one but Calvinists make the subject of God's "gift" in Ephesians 2:8 to be faith"

On this you are not correct.

In Him,

Bill

 

I agree with you and others in the prinicple found therein in relation to the unsaved.
However with due respect to the above cited verse, it must be seen in the context of what was written. Correct me if I'm wrong here, but are these passages surrounding the verse in fact the content of the passage dealing specifically and strictly with one who is redeemed that has become ensnared by the enemy.

I DO agree that no man can just up and come to God on his own with God's direct intervention of showing man he is in need OF God. By this I mean God revealing truth to ALL man, making ALL man responsible for and to the truth God has revealed to accept it or reject it. HOWEVER, the verse you are using is only a proof-text of the principle of the this truth but is not specific to the argument you are contending with regard to the unredeeming (yet saved)
So yes, one could postulate the principle from you above verse that corrisponds to the NOW redeemed and Lost as well.

 

Good Day, Allan

19
Howbeit the firm foundation of God standeth, having this seal,
The Lord knoweth them that are his: and, Let every one that nameth the name of the Lord depart
from unrighteousness.
20
Now in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but
also of wood and of earth; and some unto honor, and some unto dishonor.
21
If a man therefore
purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honor, sanctified, meet for the master's use,
prepared unto every good work.
22
after righteousness, faith, love, pace, with them that call on the
Lord out of a pure heart.
23
But foolish and ignorant questionings refuse, knowing that they gender
strifes.
24
And the Lord's servant must not strive, but be gentle towards all, apt to teach, forbearing,
25
in meekness correcting them that oppose themselves; if peradventure God may give them
repentance unto the knowledge of the truth,
26
and they may recover themselves out of the snare
of the devil, having been taken captive by him unto his will.

I guess we have to figure out who, are one ones taken captive soley by the will of the devil... IF repentance is to be grated unto the unknowledgement of truth (the one true God) I do not get from the text, that this has any thing to do with ones "The Lord knoweth", but those taken captive not as result of their own choices, but by a will attributed to the devil, for he takes them. For if the Son shall set you free you will be free indeed, freed from captivty of Sin to which the Devil is the father of those.. You v\van not understand my words because you are "of" your father the devil.

Sorry I do not see it there, unless of course one posit that the will of the Father can be bound by the will of the devil.

There is no need to assume that all truth needs to be reveal to hold men responsible. The natual revelation of God in the creation, that man activly suppreses is enough to make them responsible. If the gospel be hid it is hide to those who are perishing. The nautraul man does not understand the things of God, to them it is foolishness. God is not obligated to reveal any thing farther, but in Grace he does so many that is what make Grace so beutiful.

In Him,

Bill

 

This is from John MacArthur's Commentary on 2 Tim 2:25

emphasis mine

No, it is just your misunderstanding of the scripture there.

Now you are adding to what I said. I refered to the truth God reveals to them, NOT all truth.

Again, you are adding to my premise of God revealing truth, to your postulation of God being 'obligated'. Please stick with what I said.

BTW - Glad to have you with us on the BB

 

Paul clearly says faith is a gift in Phillipians 1:29:

"For you it is given in behalf of Christ, not only to believe on Christ, but also to suffer for his sake"

 

Hi Dr Ketchum,

Faith is not a decision if Salvation is all of God. What gives men faith in anything? Either they experience it them selves or they hear about it from someone and else and what they hear they believe. There is no decision process involved. We are either convinced of a thing or we aren't. If we are convinced we are convinced by the source we hear it from. Truth is truth whether or not the listener is convinced of it or not. If a listener is not convinced he won't believe it. The convincing of the truth is what causes our faith. Just like King Agrippa he was almost convinced. Agrippa didn't believe but if he had been convinced he would have had no choice but to believe. You cannot be convinced of a thing and not believe it. Where is the decision in that?
Vocation?
Is there one Christian who isn't responsible for the great commission. We have all been called and we are all slaves to our Master. Maybe you believe God just chooses you to save you but, myself I believe He has something in mind for all of us at our choosing. It's called a plan for our lives. Why else would He choose anyone? Everyone in Christ has been planned for, and once you're in Christ that plan will come about.
Monothetism, and monotheism; These are different Monotheism exist and the other doesn't. I figured you must have misspelled the word because of what you said after using this word, "Monothetic" Why you used this word is beyond me. it means "to place" or "posting one essential element”
MB

 

Brother MB,

An act of faith does not in anyway contribute to what God does in regeneration. Faith is merely the hand that reaches out and accepts or receives the gift God offers. The Spirit of God convinces (John 16:8). In your witnessing for Christ, you work in cooperation ("fellowship") with the Spirit of God to convince sinners (Titus 1:9). Once sinners are convinced, they must respond to the Truth they are convinced of ("obey the gospel"). They must repent of sin, false beliefs regarding salvation (Moralism, and Ritualism), and they must believe/trust/rest in the "finished" work of the propitiation of God, confess Jesus to be God incarnate ("Lord"), and call on His Name to save them. These are all Scriptural directives to be saved. They are DECISIONS that must be made and exercised.

For a study on the gospel, see the following:
http://www.disciplemakerministries.org/PDF Files/Godwantsyou.pdf

“Monothetic and Polythetic Definitions - deriving from Greek for either one, alone (mono-) or many, much (poly-) that are ‘capable of placing,’ as in one-placement and many-placements. Monothetic definitions, which can be essentialist or functionalist, presume a limited set of necessary characteristics or purposes whereas polythetic (or what might also be termed multi-factoral) definitions identify a range of traits or functions, none of which is sufficient in order for the object to qualify as a member of a class.” (http://www.as.ua.edu/rel/aboutreldefinitions.html)


As to the vocational issue, the choosing in John 15 is not referring to Christ choosing people to be saved, but His choosing men to be His Apostles. The Apostles were already saved when He chose them to be His Apostles.

 

Faith is the substance of things hoped for, evidence of things not seen. Heb11-1
The gospel of Christ, which Paul was not ashamed of, revealed the righteousness of God from FAITH TO FAITH, as it was written the just shall live by faith. faith come by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. First we will understand that God is -[they shall all know me from the least to the greatest.] but without faith it is impossible to please him for he that cometh to God must first beleive that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. Why then did Paul say from faith to faith? the measure of faith which all men receive will lead them to repentance, if they will be obeident, afterwards they enter into the faith of Jesus Christ, when they are born again. Now EVERYTHING a christian does is based on the teachings of Jesus Christ. and everything we ask God for we ask in the name of Jesus Christ.

 

I don't mean to be a pain, and I hope you'll see my questions as positive rather than an annoyance.
If man makes a decision between Salvation or not, then Salvation would actually be by the men who make those decisions.
Paul says,
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
A decision implies that we save ourselves. I admit that man isn't saved against his will. nor regenerated in order that he can believe. However willingness is not the decision, rebellion is. A child will trust an adult automatically. The younger, the more automatic the trust. What we trust, is what we are convinced of, which is why we trust in it. Once convinced we trust just like a child, it's automatic. The reason I say this is because we have to decide we are going to rebel. With out rebellion there is willingness, there is no in between. I have reasoned this based on what I understand scripture is saying. It clearly states that it isn't of our selves and I believe it.
Our choice with our freewill has always been sin and still is. Man would never choose Salvation. The only thing man can do is not to rebel. This is submission, we simply give up the rebellion, we surrender. It isn't a choice to be saved or, not but, to rebel or, not.

If the apostles were already saved, how were they saved with out the blood of Christ?. The atonement had not been paid. The Bible says there is no forgiveness of sins with out the shedding of blood. Not only that but, they all denied Him when they scattered while Christ was being tried. We know Peter denied Him, as did most of them when He arose and came to them. Thomas had to be shown in order for him to believe and even then he had to touch the wounds of Christ' to be completely convinced. Were they saved with out the atonement ,Faith and, being convinced that Christ is who He says he is?. Believing in Christ for me is with out doubt. With absolute trust. Like a child trusting the person who welcomes him with a smile. My trust in Christ was automatic once I was completely convinced.
Some do know the truth and understand without trusting. The difference is being convinced that this truth will save even them. When we are convinced we will respond automatically.
MB

 

Brother MB,

Let's say I make you a promise. I will create a brand new house for you. I will buy the property to put it on. I will design it and create the drawings. I will get the permits and bring all the equipment to get it done; materials, the ladders, nailers, brushes, everything. I will do all the work. In fact, I will only keep my promise if you receive the gift I offer without any contribution. You cannot provide equipment, or materials, and you cannot help in any way. You must simply receive my gift and trust that I will do what I say I will do. In other words, you give permission based on the conditions I set forth and rest in the fact that I keep my promises. Then, I do exactly what I said I would do. Did you in anyway participate in my "generation" of your house? No, you simply received the "gift" I offered. So it is with salvation.

 

I would encourage you to rethink this statement. OT believers were saved by looking FORWARD to the incarnation of Messiah. They were saved on credit and put on layaway. This goes all the way back to the Protevangelum of Gen. 3:15. Adam and Eve were saved "by grace through faith" just like we are today. Abraham was saved "by grace through faith" just like we are today (Romans 4:5; God accounted or credited Abraham with God-kind righteousness in exchange for Abraham's faith). There were many saved people at the time of Christ such as John the Baptist and his disciples.

You are correct in that OT believers were only positionally regenerated. It was not until Pentecost that believers were actually regenerated. This is a central argument against Calvinism's Monergism (regeneration preceding faith). If OT believers were not actually regenerated (receive the "breathe of life" in the indwelling Spirit of God), according to Monergism, no OT person could be saved because (according to Monergism) God gives the gift of faith to them in regeneration before salvation.

 

Big and bold letters Does this mean your yelling?. If I have irritated you I appoligize. It seems never the less you got my point that man doesn't decide to be saved. it's all up to God.
MB