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Is "faith" a gift of God's grace

Is "Faith a gift of God's grace?

  • Yes, that is clearly taught in Eph. 2

    Votes: 29 87.9%
  • No, that is not taught anywhere in scripture

    Votes: 4 12.1%
  • I don't know

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    33
  • Poll closed .

MB

Well-Known Member
Dr. L.T. Ketchum said:
Your are taking a monothetic definition of faith. Galatians 2:16 is referring to the faithfulness of Christ in fulfilling the Law. Therefore, the subject of the text is that salvation is not based upon human performance (man-kind righteousness through Law keeping), but upon the performance of Christ (God-kind righteousness by perfectly keeping the Law). This God-kind righteousness is imputed to the believing sinner who has repented of his own moralism and who has trusted in Christ for the imputation of God-kind righteousness “by grace through faith.” The imputation of God-kind righteousness (the righteousness of Christ) is one of the many aspects of the “gift” of salvation.

Maybe that's because I am monotheist, although I've never considered the title. Since man doesn't choose Christ, He chooses us there is nothing else that makes any sense to me.
Joh 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
It was God who called me ,God who drew me to Him . It was the Spirit of God that convinced me and convicted me through the gospel. The only thing I chose was to not rebel any longer. Even my own faith was a product of His convincing me of His truth.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
If it truly isn't of our selves, it has to be all of God or, it just wouldn't have happened. I believe the only power man has is to resist Salvation by rebellion. He certainly isn't able to come to God with out being drawn or called. Only those who come to Him with the trust of a child will be saved.
MB
 

EdSutton

New Member
Dr. L.T. Ketchum said:
Actually Brother Ed, election is the subject of Ephesians chapter two bulit upon the precedent (condition) of salvation by grace through faith.
Not that I disagree here, in any way, in the overall sense, but I merely mentioned that "Condition of Election" is not specificaly mentioned in Eph. 2:8. Lets not confuse the theology of Ephesians with the exegesis of Eph. 2:8. They are not exactly identical.

Ed
 

EdSutton

New Member
jcjordan said:
So, those of you who don't think that faith is a gift, would you also say that we shouldn't thank God for our faith? Would you honestly refuse to thank God for your faith, since you don't think it came from Him?
Welcome to the Baptist Board.

Ed
 
MB said:
Maybe that's because I am monotheist, although I've never considered the title. Since man doesn't choose Christ, He chooses us there is nothing else that makes any sense to me.
Joh 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
It was God who called me ,God who drew me to Him . It was the Spirit of God that convinced me and convicted me through the gospel. The only thing I chose was to not rebel any longer. Even my own faith was a product of His convincing me of His truth.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
If it truly isn't of our selves, it has to be all of God or, it just wouldn't have happened. I believe the only power man has is to resist Salvation by rebellion. He certainly isn't able to come to God with out being drawn or called. Only those who come to Him with the trust of a child will be saved.
MB
Monothetism and monotheism are completely different things.

You said,"Even my own faith was a product of His convincing me of His truth." You are correct. God illuminated the Truth to you through the work of His Holy Spirit. God convinced you of Truth through the work of His Holy Spirit, but faith is a decision to believe the Truth you were convinced of. God did not believe for you.

Christ's chosing in John 15 is vocational, not salvation.
 

skypair

Active Member
MB said:
The Faith we are saved by has to be a gift because the faith of man just isn't good enough to save anyone. The faith that saves us is the faith of Jesus Christ. Just as it is the righteousness of Christ that the Father see's in us that justifies us.

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Whether or not Eph 2:8 is speaking of the gift of Salvation or the gift of faith it still amounts to the same thing. We are saved by the faith of Christ. Only His faith has ever been perfect. His faith is flawless which means assurance to me. My faith had too many doubts like that of Thomas. Which also shows that there is nothing deserving in man that he should be saved. I contributed nothing to my own Salvation. It was all of God.
MB
Wow, MB!!! You nailed it!!

skypair
 

jcjordan

New Member
swaimj said:
JCJordan, your post seems to be an attempt to change the subject. The topic is the statement in Ephesians. Clear exegesis of the text has been presented showing that the word "that" does not have faith as its antecedent. If you can't disprove this fact, this passage refutes your position. That is the problem you face. Please address the topic.

The topic of the thread "Is "faith" a gift of God's grace? The consequences of saying it isn't means that God deserves much credit, but not credit for our faith. I'm not willing to say that.
 

Jarthur001

Active Member
Dr. L.T. Ketchum said:
Monothetism and monotheism are completely different things.

You said,"Even my own faith was a product of His convincing me of His truth." You are correct. God illuminated the Truth to you through the work of His Holy Spirit. God convinced you of Truth through the work of His Holy Spirit, but faith is a decision to believe the Truth you were convinced of. God did not believe for you.

Christ's chosing in John 15 is vocational, not salvation.

Hello Doc,

Who gave you your IQ?
 

bbas 64

New Member
Dr. L.T. Ketchum said:
Brother Bill,
Faith is not a gift. Faith, like repentance, is a CHOICE/DECISION TO BELIEVE, to which God supernaturally leads the sinner through the working of His Holy Spirit. Romans 2:4 tells us that it is the goodness of God that LEADS us to repentance. Once there, we must make a DECISION to obey. God's healing (Scripturally in the Gospels) was conditioned on a believer's faith. Faith is the EXPRESSION of beliefs.

Good Day, L.T Ketchum

Repentace is granted...

2Ti 2:25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;


Repentance first must be granted, before one can repent. Those who are not given (from God) repentance will not nor can they repent.



I was posting reguarding you assertion:

"No one but Calvinists make the subject of God's "gift" in Ephesians 2:8 to be faith"

On this you are not correct.

In Him,

Bill
 
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Allan

Active Member
bbas 64 said:
Repentace is granted...

2Ti 2:25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;


Repentance first must be granted, before one can repent. Those who are not given (from God) repentance will not nor can they repent.
I agree with you and others in the prinicple found therein in relation to the unsaved.
However with due respect to the above cited verse, it must be seen in the context of what was written. Correct me if I'm wrong here, but are these passages surrounding the verse in fact the content of the passage dealing specifically and strictly with one who is redeemed that has become ensnared by the enemy.

I DO agree that no man can just up and come to God on his own with God's direct intervention of showing man he is in need OF God. By this I mean God revealing truth to ALL man, making ALL man responsible for and to the truth God has revealed to accept it or reject it. HOWEVER, the verse you are using is only a proof-text of the principle of the this truth but is not specific to the argument you are contending with regard to the unredeeming (yet saved)
So yes, one could postulate the principle from you above verse that corrisponds to the NOW redeemed and Lost as well.
 
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bbas 64

New Member
Allan said:
I agree with you and others in the prinicple found therein in relation to the unsaved.
However with due respect to the above cited verse, it must be seen in the context of what was written. Correct me if I'm wrong here, but are these passages surrounding the verse in fact the content of the passage dealing specifically and strictly with one who is redeemed that has become ensnared by the enemy.

Good Day, Allan

19
Howbeit the firm foundation of God standeth, having this seal,
The Lord knoweth them that are his: and, Let every one that nameth the name of the Lord depart
from unrighteousness.
20
Now in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but
also of wood and of earth; and some unto honor, and some unto dishonor.
21
If a man therefore
purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honor, sanctified, meet for the master's use,
prepared unto every good work.
22
after righteousness, faith, love, pace, with them that call on the
Lord out of a pure heart.
23
But foolish and ignorant questionings refuse, knowing that they gender
strifes.
24
And the Lord's servant must not strive, but be gentle towards all, apt to teach, forbearing,
25
in meekness correcting them that oppose themselves; if peradventure God may give them
repentance unto the knowledge of the truth,
26
and they may recover themselves out of the snare
of the devil, having been taken captive by him unto his will.

I guess we have to figure out who, are one ones taken captive soley by the will of the devil... IF repentance is to be grated unto the unknowledgement of truth (the one true God) I do not get from the text, that this has any thing to do with ones "The Lord knoweth", but those taken captive not as result of their own choices, but by a will attributed to the devil, for he takes them. For if the Son shall set you free you will be free indeed, freed from captivty of Sin to which the Devil is the father of those.. You v\van not understand my words because you are "of" your father the devil.

I DO agree that no man can just up and come to God on his own with God's direct intervention of showing man he is in need OF God. By this I mean God revealing truth to ALL man, making ALL man responsible for and to the truth God has revealed to accept it or reject it. HOWEVER, the verse you are using is only a proof-text of the principle of the this truth but is not specific to the argument you are contending with regard to the unredeeming (yet saved)
So yes, one could postulate the principle from you above verse that corrisponds to the NOW redeemed and Lost as well.

Sorry I do not see it there, unless of course one posit that the will of the Father can be bound by the will of the devil.

There is no need to assume that all truth needs to be reveal to hold men responsible. The natual revelation of God in the creation, that man activly suppreses is enough to make them responsible. If the gospel be hid it is hide to those who are perishing. The nautraul man does not understand the things of God, to them it is foolishness. God is not obligated to reveal any thing farther, but in Grace he does so many that is what make Grace so beutiful.

In Him,

Bill
 

Allan

Active Member
bbas 64 said:
Good Day, Allan

19
Howbeit the firm foundation of God standeth, having this seal,
The Lord knoweth them that are his: and, Let every one that nameth the name of the Lord depart
from unrighteousness.
20
Now in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but
also of wood and of earth; and some unto honor, and some unto dishonor.
21
If a man therefore
purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honor, sanctified, meet for the master's use,
prepared unto every good work.
22
after righteousness, faith, love, pace, with them that call on the
Lord out of a pure heart.
23
But foolish and ignorant questionings refuse, knowing that they gender
strifes.
24
And the Lord's servant must not strive, but be gentle towards all, apt to teach, forbearing,
25
in meekness correcting them that oppose themselves; if peradventure God may give them
repentance unto the knowledge of the truth,
26
and they may recover themselves out of the snare
of the devil, having been taken captive by him unto his will.

I guess we have to figure out who, are one ones taken captive soley by the will of the devil... IF repentance is to be grated unto the unknowledgement of truth (the one true God) I do not get from the text, that this has any thing to do with ones "The Lord knoweth", but those taken captive not as result of their own choices, but by a will attributed to the devil, for he takes them. For if the Son shall set you free you will be free indeed, freed from captivty of Sin to which the Devil is the father of those.. You v\van not understand my words because you are "of" your father the devil.
This is from John MacArthur's Commentary on 2 Tim 2:25
A Compassionate Attitude

correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will. (2:25b–26)

Finally, an honorable vessel and bond-servant of the Lord will have a compassionate attitude. Paul here focuses on the expression of compassion and meekness when correcting those who are in opposition.

Correcting is from paideuō, which means to instruct, educate, or give guidance. Because the objects of this instruction are those who teach false doctrine and live ungodly lives, this particular instruction is in the form of correction.

Much of the self-righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees was based on their carefully following human tradition that had no basis in Scripture and often was in contradiction of it. They “invalidated the word of God for the sake of [their] tradition,” Jesus said (Matt. 15:6). But the godly Christian has no reason for being self-righteous even when he is humbly obeying Scripture, because he knows that his obedience is the product of the Holy Spirit rather than his own goodness. Consequently, when confronting believers who are teaching falsehood and living sinfully, one must never do so with an attitude of personal superiority. Christians are to have compassion for them in their sin just as the Lord has compassion.

Paul is not speaking of personal differences of opinion but of the opposition of disobedient believers. The opposition may pertain to “foolish and ignorant speculations” (v. 23) or to the more serious matters of doctrine or morals they lead to. Every minister encounters situations in the church that demand correction and sometimes rebuke. “For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,” Paul reminded Titus, “instructing us [that is, every believer] to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age, looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus” (Titus 2:11–13). The faithful bond-servant of Christ is to be God’s instrument for correcting fellow believers, whatever their position in the church, who persist in “ungodliness and worldly desire” and to admonish them to live “righteously and godly in the present age.”

The motivation of such correction should be the sincere desire that perhaps God may grant them repentance. That is always the motivation of a humble and compassionate heart. Paul told the immature, worldly believers in Corinth, “I now rejoice, not that you were made sorrowful, but that you were made sorrowful to the point of repentance; for you were made sorrowful according to the will of God, in order that you might not suffer loss in anything through us” (2 Cor. 7:9). Even when those who are corrected are resentful of us and unrepentant, as some in Corinth were in regard to Paul, there is never a place in godly correction for personal animosity or judgmental self-righteousness.

The hope that God may grant them repentance is not a last resort. The idea is not that we must try to persuade them to repent by their own efforts and in their own power and that, if they fail, we then hope that perhaps God will grant them the repentance they were unable to achieve for themselves. Metanoia (repentance) does not mean simply being sorry for what we have done. It signifies a genuine change of mind, change of heart, and change of direction. It is for that reason that all genuine repentance must be the product of God’s sovereign grace, just as is every aspect of salvation—“in order that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus” (Eph. 2:7). No person, no matter how sincere and determined, can truly repent and change his own sinful thoughts and ideas and correct his own sinful life. Only God can work that miracle in the heart. In the same way, we are able to love only “because [Christ] first loved us” (1 John 4:19), “because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us” (Rom. 5:5). God works repentance in the willing heart of one who truly desires holiness.

Repentance leads disobedient believers out of their sin and falsehood into the knowledge of the truth. Epignōsis represents more than mere factual information. It is deep, thorough spiritual knowledge of God’s truth, which, as with repentance, only He can supply.

It is only through God’s gracious provision of repentance and knowledge of His truth that anyone, including sinning believers, may come to their spiritual senses. Ananēphō (come to their senses) literally means to return to soberness, indicating that falsehood and sin produce what might be called a type of spiritual inebriation, a stupor resulting in loss of judgment and proper control of one’s faculties. The destructive effect of false teaching and sin numbs the conscience, confuses the mind, erodes conviction, and paralyzes the will.

God’s provision of genuine repentance and knowledge of His truth enable a believer to escape from the snare of the devil, after having been held captive by him to do his will. As Paul apprised Timothy in the previous letter, even an overseer can “fall into reproach and the snare of the devil” (1 Tim. 3:7). It is a fearful thing that, because of sin and unfaithfulness, the devil can actually snare and hold a believer captive … to do his will. The vessel of dishonor becomes a pawn of Satan to work his evil will within the very body of Christ. Such is the terrible and tragic power of sin

....
emphasis mine

Sorry I do not see it there, unless of course one posit that the will of the Father can be bound by the will of the devil.
No, it is just your misunderstanding of the scripture there.

There is no need to assume that all truth needs to be reveal to hold men responsible.
Now you are adding to what I said. I refered to the truth God reveals to them, NOT all truth.

The nautraul man does not understand the things of God, to them it is foolishness. God is not obligated to reveal any thing farther, but in Grace he does so many that is what make Grace so beutiful.
Again, you are adding to my premise of God revealing truth, to your postulation of God being 'obligated'. Please stick with what I said.

BTW - Glad to have you with us on the BB :)
 
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Tom Butler

New Member
Paul clearly says faith is a gift in Phillipians 1:29:

"For you it is given in behalf of Christ, not only to believe on Christ, but also to suffer for his sake"
 

MB

Well-Known Member
Hi Dr Ketchum,
Dr. L.T. Ketchum said:
Monothetism and monotheism are completely different things.

You said,"Even my own faith was a product of His convincing me of His truth." You are correct. God illuminated the Truth to you through the work of His Holy Spirit. God convinced you of Truth through the work of His Holy Spirit, but faith is a decision to believe the Truth you were convinced of. God did not believe for you.

Christ's chosing in John 15 is vocational, not salvation.

Faith is not a decision if Salvation is all of God. What gives men faith in anything? Either they experience it them selves or they hear about it from someone and else and what they hear they believe. There is no decision process involved. We are either convinced of a thing or we aren't. If we are convinced we are convinced by the source we hear it from. Truth is truth whether or not the listener is convinced of it or not. If a listener is not convinced he won't believe it. The convincing of the truth is what causes our faith. Just like King Agrippa he was almost convinced. Agrippa didn't believe but if he had been convinced he would have had no choice but to believe. You cannot be convinced of a thing and not believe it. Where is the decision in that?
Vocation?
Is there one Christian who isn't responsible for the great commission. We have all been called and we are all slaves to our Master. Maybe you believe God just chooses you to save you but, myself I believe He has something in mind for all of us at our choosing. It's called a plan for our lives. Why else would He choose anyone? Everyone in Christ has been planned for, and once you're in Christ that plan will come about.
Monothetism, and monotheism; These are different Monotheism exist and the other doesn't. I figured you must have misspelled the word because of what you said after using this word, "Monothetic" Why you used this word is beyond me. it means "to place" or "posting one essential element”
MB
 

canadyjd

Well-Known Member
KeithS said:
I must admit that I always thought "it" refers to being saved, not faith. Your poll encouraged me to look a bit further on the matter. Below is a very interesting article that supports the position that being saved is in view rather than faith. By the way, I did not vote in the poll since I did not like option two. I don't think it is taught in Eph. 2:8. I suppose that I should have voted I don't know. Oh, well.

http://www.faithalone.org/news/y1989/89july1.html
Thank you for the link. It is very informative and compelling. I would like to note a couple of things. At the end of the article, the author says this:
To conclude, it is inaccurate to suggest that God gives men a special gift of faith so that they may be saved and subsequently sanctified. Instead, God has sent His Holy Spirit into the world to convict men of sin and to enlighten darkened and depraved minds to the saving truths contained in Scripture (John 16:8; Rom 10:17; Eph 3:9). When one is regenerated, it is yieldedness to the filling ministry of the Holy Spirit, not infused faith, that results in good works. From Ephesians 2:8 and the collective whole of NT data, God is presented as the gracious initiator who, through His Holy Spirit, woos and wins men to Himself. Man is depicted as the responder who, in his spiritually destitute state, is convicted and enlightened by the Holy Spirit, and answers in simple faith to the promises of the Gospel. In view of such exquisite grace, it is only fitting to contend that salvation is a superlative expression of divine favor, yea, even a gift of God! (emphasis mine)
I will rethink my understanding of this particular verse. Their are other verses, however, that indicate faith is a gift. Tom Butler has noticed the following:
Paul clearly says faith is a gift in Phillipians 1:29:

"For you it is given in behalf of Christ, not only to believe on Christ, but also to suffer for his sake"
In addition to Phil. 1:29, Romans 12:3 must be explained:
Romans 12:3 "For through the grace given to me I say to every man among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith."
Paul appears to be saying that when we consider that God has given each believer a measure of faith, we will be humbled and not think more highly of ourselves than we ought.

Clearly, at least to me, Paul is saying that God is the source of each believers faith and it is "given".

That is consistent with Hebrews 12:3 which states that Jesus is "the author and perfecter of faith". The word "author" is "apxagon" in Greek and means "originator". In context, the writer of Hebrews has just given the "cloud of witnesses" of the faithful followers of God. Jesus is then explained to be the author (originator) of faith and the One who "perfects" faith.

The writer then speaks of the discipline of God which "yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness" (v.11). Clearly, it seems to me, he is saying that the way in which faith is "perfected" is through God's discipline.

So, even if Eph. 2:8 doesn't specifically refer to faith as a gift (and the argument from the grammatical structure appears to be compelling at this point. I am open to hear any Greek scholars that view it otherwise), we still find "faith" being a gift of God from other passages.

Thank you again for the post.

peace to you:praying:
 
MB said:
Hi Dr Ketchum,


Faith is not a decision if Salvation is all of God. What gives men faith in anything? Either they experience it them selves or they hear about it from someone and else and what they hear they believe. There is no decision process involved. We are either convinced of a thing or we aren't. If we are convinced we are convinced by the source we hear it from. Truth is truth whether or not the listener is convinced of it or not. If a listener is not convinced he won't believe it. The convincing of the truth is what causes our faith. Just like King Agrippa he was almost convinced. Agrippa didn't believe but if he had been convinced he would have had no choice but to believe. You cannot be convinced of a thing and not believe it. Where is the decision in that?
Vocation?
Is there one Christian who isn't responsible for the great commission. We have all been called and we are all slaves to our Master. Maybe you believe God just chooses you to save you but, myself I believe He has something in mind for all of us at our choosing. It's called a plan for our lives. Why else would He choose anyone? Everyone in Christ has been planned for, and once you're in Christ that plan will come about.
Monothetism, and monotheism; These are different Monotheism exist and the other doesn't. I figured you must have misspelled the word because of what you said after using this word, "Monothetic" Why you used this word is beyond me. it means "to place" or "posting one essential element”
MB
Brother MB,

An act of faith does not in anyway contribute to what God does in regeneration. Faith is merely the hand that reaches out and accepts or receives the gift God offers. The Spirit of God convinces (John 16:8). In your witnessing for Christ, you work in cooperation ("fellowship") with the Spirit of God to convince sinners (Titus 1:9). Once sinners are convinced, they must respond to the Truth they are convinced of ("obey the gospel"). They must repent of sin, false beliefs regarding salvation (Moralism, and Ritualism), and they must believe/trust/rest in the "finished" work of the propitiation of God, confess Jesus to be God incarnate ("Lord"), and call on His Name to save them. These are all Scriptural directives to be saved. They are DECISIONS that must be made and exercised.

For a study on the gospel, see the following:
http://www.disciplemakerministries.org/PDF Files/Godwantsyou.pdf

“Monothetic and Polythetic Definitions - deriving from Greek for either one, alone (mono-) or many, much (poly-) that are ‘capable of placing,’ as in one-placement and many-placements. Monothetic definitions, which can be essentialist or functionalist, presume a limited set of necessary characteristics or purposes whereas polythetic (or what might also be termed multi-factoral) definitions identify a range of traits or functions, none of which is sufficient in order for the object to qualify as a member of a class.” (http://www.as.ua.edu/rel/aboutreldefinitions.html)


As to the vocational issue, the choosing in John 15 is not referring to Christ choosing people to be saved, but His choosing men to be His Apostles. The Apostles were already saved when He chose them to be His Apostles.

 

Danny Hurley

New Member
Faith is the substance of things hoped for, evidence of things not seen. Heb11-1
The gospel of Christ, which Paul was not ashamed of, revealed the righteousness of God from FAITH TO FAITH, as it was written the just shall live by faith. faith come by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. First we will understand that God is -[they shall all know me from the least to the greatest.] but without faith it is impossible to please him for he that cometh to God must first beleive that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. Why then did Paul say from faith to faith? the measure of faith which all men receive will lead them to repentance, if they will be obeident, afterwards they enter into the faith of Jesus Christ, when they are born again. Now EVERYTHING a christian does is based on the teachings of Jesus Christ. and everything we ask God for we ask in the name of Jesus Christ.
 

MB

Well-Known Member
Dr. L.T. Ketchum said:
Brother MB,

An act of faith does not in anyway contribute to what God does in regeneration. Faith is merely the hand that reaches out and accepts or receives the gift God offers. The Spirit of God convinces (John 16:8). In your witnessing for Christ, you work in cooperation ("fellowship") with the Spirit of God to convince sinners (Titus 1:9). Once sinners are convinced, they must respond to the Truth they are convinced of ("obey the gospel"). They must repent of sin, false beliefs regarding salvation (Moralism, and Ritualism), and they must believe/trust/rest in the "finished" work of the propitiation of God, confess Jesus to be God incarnate ("Lord"), and call on His Name to save them. These are all Scriptural directives to be saved. They are DECISIONS that must be made and exercised.

I don't mean to be a pain, and I hope you'll see my questions as positive rather than an annoyance.
If man makes a decision between Salvation or not, then Salvation would actually be by the men who make those decisions.
Paul says,
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
A decision implies that we save ourselves. I admit that man isn't saved against his will. nor regenerated in order that he can believe. However willingness is not the decision, rebellion is. A child will trust an adult automatically. The younger, the more automatic the trust. What we trust, is what we are convinced of, which is why we trust in it. Once convinced we trust just like a child, it's automatic. The reason I say this is because we have to decide we are going to rebel. With out rebellion there is willingness, there is no in between. I have reasoned this based on what I understand scripture is saying. It clearly states that it isn't of our selves and I believe it.
Our choice with our freewill has always been sin and still is. Man would never choose Salvation. The only thing man can do is not to rebel. This is submission, we simply give up the rebellion, we surrender. It isn't a choice to be saved or, not but, to rebel or, not.
Dr. L.T. Ketchum said:
Dr. L.T. Ketchum said:

“Monothetic and Polythetic Definitions - deriving from Greek for either one, alone (mono-) or many, much (poly-) that are ‘capable of placing,’ as in one-placement and many-placements. Monothetic definitions, which can be essentialist or functionalist, presume a limited set of necessary characteristics or purposes whereas polythetic (or what might also be termed multi-factoral) definitions identify a range of traits or functions, none of which is sufficient in order for the object to qualify as a member of a class.” (http://www.as.ua.edu/rel/aboutreldefinitions.html)


As to the vocational issue, the choosing in John 15 is not referring to Christ choosing people to be saved, but His choosing men to be His Apostles. The Apostles were already saved when He chose them to be His Apostles.


If the apostles were already saved, how were they saved with out the blood of Christ?. The atonement had not been paid. The Bible says there is no forgiveness of sins with out the shedding of blood. Not only that but, they all denied Him when they scattered while Christ was being tried. We know Peter denied Him, as did most of them when He arose and came to them. Thomas had to be shown in order for him to believe and even then he had to touch the wounds of Christ' to be completely convinced. Were they saved with out the atonement ,Faith and, being convinced that Christ is who He says he is?. Believing in Christ for me is with out doubt. With absolute trust. Like a child trusting the person who welcomes him with a smile. My trust in Christ was automatic once I was completely convinced.
Some do know the truth and understand without trusting. The difference is being convinced that this truth will save even them. When we are convinced we will respond automatically.
MB
 
MB said:
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I don't mean to be a pain,and I hope you'll see my questions as positive rather than an annoyance.
If man makes a decision between Salvation or not, then Salvation would actually be by the men who make those decisions.
Paul says,
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
A decision implies that we save ourselves. I admit that man isn't saved against his will. nor regenerated in order that he can believe. However willingness is not the decision, rebellion is. A child will trust an adult automatically. The younger, the more automatic the trust. What we trust, is what we are convinced of, which is why we trust in it. Once convinced we trust just like a child, it's automatic. The reason I say this is because we have to decide we are going to rebel. With out rebellion there is willingness, there is no in between. I have reasoned this based on what I understand scripture is saying. It clearly states that it isn't of our selves and I believe it.
Our choice with our freewill has always been sin and still is. Man would never choose Salvation. The only thing man can do is not to rebel. This is submission, we simply give up the rebellion, we surrender. It isn't a choice to be saved or, not but, to rebel or, not.


If the apostles were already saved, how were they saved with out the blood of Christ?. The atonement had not been paid. The Bible says there is no forgiveness of sins with out the shedding of blood. Not only that but, they all denied Him when they scattered while Christ was being tried. We know Peter denied Him, as did most of them when He arose and came to them. Thomas had to be shown in order for him to believe and even then he had to touch the wounds of Christ' to be completely convinced. Were they saved with out the atonement ,Faith and, being convinced that Christ is who He says he is?. Believing in Christ for me is with out doubt. With absolute trust. Like a child trusting the person who welcomes him with a smile. My trust in Christ was automatic once I was completely convinced.
Some do know the truth and understand without trusting. The difference is being convinced that this truth will save even them. When we are convinced we will respond automatically.
MB
Brother MB,

Let's say I make you a promise. I will create a brand new house for you. I will buy the property to put it on. I will design it and create the drawings. I will get the permits and bring all the equipment to get it done; materials, the ladders, nailers, brushes, everything. I will do all the work. In fact, I will only keep my promise if you receive the gift I offer without any contribution. You cannot provide equipment, or materials, and you cannot help in any way. You must simply receive my gift and trust that I will do what I say I will do. In other words, you give permission based on the conditions I set forth and rest in the fact that I keep my promises. Then, I do exactly what I said I would do. Did you in anyway participate in my "generation" of your house? No, you simply received the "gift" I offered. So it is with salvation.
 
MB said:
[/size][/font]If the apostles were already saved, how were they saved with out the blood of Christ?. The atonement had not been paid. The Bible says there is no forgiveness of sins with out the shedding of blood. Not only that but, they all denied Him when they scattered while Christ was being tried. We know Peter denied Him, as did most of them when He arose and came to them. Thomas had to be shown in order for him to believe and even then he had to touch the wounds of Christ' to be completely convinced. Were they saved with out the atonement ,Faith and, being convinced that Christ is who He says he is?. Believing in Christ for me is with out doubt. With absolute trust. Like a child trusting the person who welcomes him with a smile. My trust in Christ was automatic once I was completely convinced.
Some do know the truth and understand without trusting. The difference is being convinced that this truth will save even them. When we are convinced we will respond automatically.
MB
I would encourage you to rethink this statement. OT believers were saved by looking FORWARD to the incarnation of Messiah. They were saved on credit and put on layaway. This goes all the way back to the Protevangelum of Gen. 3:15. Adam and Eve were saved "by grace through faith" just like we are today. Abraham was saved "by grace through faith" just like we are today (Romans 4:5; God accounted or credited Abraham with God-kind righteousness in exchange for Abraham's faith). There were many saved people at the time of Christ such as John the Baptist and his disciples.

You are correct in that OT believers were only positionally regenerated. It was not until Pentecost that believers were actually regenerated. This is a central argument against Calvinism's Monergism (regeneration preceding faith). If OT believers were not actually regenerated (receive the "breathe of life" in the indwelling Spirit of God), according to Monergism, no OT person could be saved because (according to Monergism) God gives the gift of faith to them in regeneration before salvation.
 

MB

Well-Known Member
Dr. L.T. Ketchum said:
Brother MB,

Let's say I make you a promise. I will create a brand new house for you. I will buy the property to put it on. I will design it and create the drawings. I will get the permits and bring all the equipment to get it done; materials, the ladders, nailers, brushes, everything. I will do all the work. In fact, I will only keep my promise if you receive the gift I offer without any contribution. You cannot provide equipment, or materials, and you cannot help in any way. You must simply receive my gift and trust that I will do what I say I will do. In other words, you give permission based on the conditions I set forth and rest in the fact that I keep my promises. Then, I do exactly what I said I would do. Did you in anyway participate in my "generation" of your house? No, you simply received the "gift" I offered. So it is with salvation.
Big and bold letters Does this mean your yelling?. If I have irritated you I appoligize. It seems never the less you got my point that man doesn't decide to be saved. it's all up to God.
MB
 
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