Is Faith an exclusive gift ?

[atpollard]

Sorry this is wrong. It is not human generated faith it is gospel generated faith. There is a clear difference.

Your dismissal of Gods word in this process and its power is concerning.

Save your concerns.
I am reluctant to attempt to articulate the view of another, but I do not believe that MB claims that Gods Word changes the heart, I believe that he advocates God responding to the faith of and from the person and then God acting to save. You can ask him for clarification of his beliefs.

I am a Doctrine of Grace monergist, so I hold to a different paradigm of how God saves.

 

[37818]

An important side note. (This thread is in regards to faith in our having Salvation.) The side note is that faith is an essential to knowing anything. Information heard is not knowledge in some way unless it is believed in the way it is to be one's knowledge. (References, John 17:17, Romans 10:17-18, Psalms 19)

 

[Revmitchell]

I see we are stating empty rhetoric again. If you agree with the following ...

... then the term "Semi-Pelagian" describes your belief. Semi-Pelagian is not the Pelagian heresy.



Grammatically, "that" is the "gift" in Ephesians 2:8-9. "That" most likely refers to the FACT in the preceding clause "by grace you have been saved through faith" with Paul making the point that the mode of salvation is "a Gift of God" and not a work of man. So "Faith" and "Grace" are not directly the "gift", but neither are they completely unrelated to the "gift".

Wow. I have to say. You are the first reformed/calvinist/whateveryourchosenflavoris that has been this honest about that verse. Thank you. Good job.

I understand that you interpret it that way and I see that it is not without reason. I agree with you that they are not unrelated. But relationship does not insist faith is a gift in the same manner salvation is.

 

[Revmitchell]

Save your concerns.
I am reluctant to attempt to articulate the view of another, but I do not believe that MB claims that Gods Word changes the heart, I believe that he advocates God responding to the faith of and from the person and then God acting to save. You can ask him for clarification of his beliefs.

I am a Doctrine of Grace monergist, so I hold to a different paradigm of how God saves.

No no my concern is valid given the post you responded his exact wording and the scripture he used. Further, it is my experience that reformed folks trott out the "human generated faith" accusation to anyone who does not have the same paradigm as them.

 

[canadyjd]

John 7:39

“(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)”
As an aside this verse shows no one recieved the indwelling of the Holy Spirit prior to Jesus s glorification.

I agree that indwelling Holy Spirit begins at salvation. The indwelling is part the Divine gift of salvation and is the mark of a Christian. Once indwelling, Holy Spirit may be grieved but will never abandon us.

The role and extent of Holy Spirit in the salvation process is the real debate, imo.

peace to you

 

[Dave G]

The Holy Spirit convicts .

Everyone?
If so, then please provide the Scriptures that you see where He does that.

The Gospel is the power of God unto Salvation

To them that believe it ( Romans 1:16 ), I agree.
To the perishing, the Gospel ( the preaching of the cross ) is foolishness ( 1 Corinthians 1:18 ).

To us which are saved, it is the power of God.

Do you see where I'm getting the understanding for the Gospel being the power of God unto salvation, Barry?
Scripture shedding light on and further defining other Scriptures.

Faith comes by hearing.

Romans 10:17...
I agree.

But, similar to the above, more of God's word can be brought to bear on the declaration,
and we now get a broader detail on who it is that hears, has faith and believes on Christ, and who does not:

Matthew 11:14-15 and many like it.
John 8:43-47.
John 10:27.

We have to be sensitive to what the gnostics believed and even hinduism teaches some concepts about an inner call or an awakening ect Which is why Calvinsm has the accusations about its links to Gnosctism. ( via Augustine)

To me, no one even has to bring in what men teach...
What does the word of God itself state about many subjects?

Strictly sticking to just the Scriptures and it's declarations, I see that all the answers for why people have "saving faith", who believes and who does not and why, and many other things are already answered in the Bible for those who go searching for those answers.

Barry,
Again I'm confused...
Why do you keep asking the same questions about faith, eternal life, etc. when the Scriptures that actually answer them are continually put in front of you?

No offense intended sir, but I'm scratching my head.

To me, it's not about "Calvinism", "Arminianism", "Traditionalism" or "Molinism"...
It's about the actual words.

 

[Barry Johnson]

Everyone?
If so, then please provide the Scriptures that you see where He does that.

To them that believe it ( Romans 1:16 ), I agree.
To the perishing, the Gospel ( the preaching of the cross ) is foolishness ( 1 Corinthians 1:18 ).

To us which are saved, it is the power of God.

Do you see where I'm getting the understanding for the Gospel being the power of God unto salvation, Barry?
Scripture shedding light on and further defining other Scriptures.

Romans 10:17...
I agree.

But, similar to the above, more of God's word can be brought to bear on the declaration,
and we now get a broader detail on who it is that hears, has faith and believes on Christ, and who does not:

Matthew 11:14-15 and many like it.
John 8:43-47.
John 10:27.

To me, no one even has to bring in what men teach...
What does the word of God itself state about many subjects?

Strictly sticking to just the Scriptures and it's declarations, I see that all the answers for why people have "saving faith", who believes and who does not and why, and many other things are already answered in the Bible for those who go searching for those answers.

Barry,
Again I'm confused...
Why do you keep asking the same questions about faith, eternal life, etc. when the Scriptures that actually answer them are continually put in front of you?

No offense intended sir, but I'm scratching my head.

To me, it's not about "Calvinism", "Arminianism", "Traditionalism" or "Molinism"...
It's about the actual words.

Yes everyone.
7Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
8And when he is come, he will reprove the WORLD of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9Of sin, because they believe not on me;
10Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
11Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.
12¶I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

 

[Barry Johnson]

Everyone?
If so, then please provide the Scriptures that you see where He does that.

To them that believe it ( Romans 1:16 ), I agree.
To the perishing, the Gospel ( the preaching of the cross ) is foolishness ( 1 Corinthians 1:18 ).

To us which are saved, it is the power of God.

Do you see where I'm getting the understanding for the Gospel being the power of God unto salvation, Barry?
Scripture shedding light on and further defining other Scriptures.

Romans 10:17...
I agree.

But, similar to the above, more of God's word can be brought to bear on the declaration,
and we now get a broader detail on who it is that hears, has faith and believes on Christ, and who does not:

Matthew 11:14-15 and many like it.
John 8:43-47.
John 10:27.

To me, no one even has to bring in what men teach...
What does the word of God itself state about many subjects?

Strictly sticking to just the Scriptures and it's declarations, I see that all the answers for why people have "saving faith", who believes and who does not and why, and many other things are already answered in the Bible for those who go searching for those answers.

Barry,
Again I'm confused...
Why do you keep asking the same questions about faith, eternal life, etc. when the Scriptures that actually answer them are continually put in front of you?

No offense intended sir, but I'm scratching my head.

To me, it's not about "Calvinism", "Arminianism", "Traditionalism" or "Molinism"...
It's about the actual words.

Its hard to respond because of information overload . Try to deal with one thing at a time. And less of a scatter gun approach with a list of unconnected scriptures please .

 

[Barry Johnson]

Everyone?
If so, then please provide the Scriptures that you see where He does that.

To them that believe it ( Romans 1:16 ), I agree.
To the perishing, the Gospel ( the preaching of the cross ) is foolishness ( 1 Corinthians 1:18 ).

To us which are saved, it is the power of God.

Do you see where I'm getting the understanding for the Gospel being the power of God unto salvation, Barry?
Scripture shedding light on and further defining other Scriptures.

Romans 10:17...
I agree.

But, similar to the above, more of God's word can be brought to bear on the declaration,
and we now get a broader detail on who it is that hears, has faith and believes on Christ, and who does not:

Matthew 11:14-15 and many like it.
John 8:43-47.
John 10:27.

To me, no one even has to bring in what men teach...
What does the word of God itself state about many subjects?

Strictly sticking to just the Scriptures and it's declarations, I see that all the answers for why people have "saving faith", who believes and who does not and why, and many other things are already answered in the Bible for those who go searching for those answers.

Barry,
Again I'm confused...
Why do you keep asking the same questions about faith, eternal life, etc. when the Scriptures that actually answer them are continually put in front of you?

No offense intended sir, but I'm scratching my head.

To me, it's not about "Calvinism", "Arminianism", "Traditionalism" or "Molinism"...
It's about the actual words.

" saving faith " ? verse ?

 

[MB]

You keep telling me what I am going to say and what I believe ... and you are usually wrong.

What I would say is that "the Holy Spirit convicted me to begin with" is what "Calvinists" call "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him" [John 6:44] and is the same as "they were pierced to the heart" [Acts 2:37] and "the Lord opened her heart to respond" [Acts 16:14] ... which is why we say "God makes the first move, and THEN we respond".

I'm not stating this post is about you in particular but what I've been told by other Calvinist. I tend to lump them all in the same category. No Offense intended. In my experience few have said anything to me about conviction Most just tell me they could not believe until they were regenerated. If you look at the definitions of the word regeneration you'll find that it means to be saved. I believe we are saved by grace through faith for this to happen we have to believe.

I've had many Calvinist tell me I'm not saved because I do not believe the way they do. Although I do not agree with what I've been told. I admit that it certainly seems to me there are a lot of Calvinist on this board who Claim Christ as there Savior. They believe as I'm sure that you do and this has to be the result of your's and there's Salvation. Regardless of which came first. Since belief is necessary, and you believe then you have to be saved.

This board works this way for me that in debate over what ever it may be, we all tend to step on each other's toes with insults, name calling and other rude comments and derogatory statements to each other. And the reason the debate goes on is because. We just can't wait to tell each other a thing or too about what we feel are mistakes committed by the opposite debtor. When all the while we both believe in Christ. We are brother after all.

Every once in a while conviction comes along and smacks me right in the face. The Lord has a way of correcting our mistakes. The Correction can make you see double sometimes and I realize that some doctrines are false and some are genuine. No one has a perfect doctrine because it is we after all who work it out. Anyway I've come to realize that our argument is really quite worthless simply because no matter what the bottom line is do you believe. If so then the rest will be worked out eventually no matter who is right or wrong. As long as we believe then 90 % of the battle is already won. Perfection does not come until we are finally judged and adopted.
I suppose what I really wish is to be brothers fighting for Christ this way we both win.
MB

 

[Van]

Anyone ever notice that if salvation is "through" or by means of faith, then it is impossible that salvation precedes faith. Full Stop

 

[Barry Johnson]

Anyone ever notice that if salvation is "through" or by means of faith, then it is impossible that salvation precedes faith. Full Stop

I literally cannot believe we have to question this , its insane .

 

[Barry Johnson]

I see we are stating empty rhetoric again. If you agree with the following ...

... then the term "Semi-Pelagian" describes your belief. Semi-Pelagian is not the Pelagian heresy.



Grammatically, "that" is the "gift" in Ephesians 2:8-9. "That" most likely refers to the FACT in the preceding clause "by grace you have been saved through faith" with Paul making the point that the mode of salvation is "a Gift of God" and not a work of man. So "Faith" and "Grace" are not directly the "gift", but neither are they completely unrelated to the "gift".

I think the issue is we have different definitions of Grace , Faith , saved, works, gift , boasting , through, that in order to establish a common ground takes a little more effort.

 

[Barry Johnson]

[Ephesians 2:8-9 NASB] 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, [it is] the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

"the gift" = "that" = "by grace you have been saved through faith"

Paul's key points in the verse are that "God's plan of salvation" (by grace through faith ... whatever the source of that faith) IS NOT "a result of works" and IS "the gift of God", THEREFORE "no one may boast" (of thier salvation).

The issue that I have with the semi-pelagian claim of human-generated faith is NOT that "faith is a work", but rather that the cooperative salvation of Christ's death and OUR FAITH gives us a reason why we certainly "may boast" (in our salvation). Synergysm undercuts the basic message of God saving a people that could not save themselves ... which is the very heart of monergism.


[PS: Defining SEMI-PELAGIANISM to avoid misunderstanding:

Semi-Pelagianism was promulgated in the fifth century AD by John Cassian and some other church leaders in France. It took a middle-of-the-road approach to depravity; we are depraved, but not totally so. Semi-Pelagianism allows that humanity is tainted by sin, but not to the extent that we cannot cooperate with God’s grace on our own. Semi-Pelagianism is, in essence, partial depravity as opposed to total depravity. We are sinful, but we can still recognize the truth, cooperate with God’s grace, and choose to seek Christ. We need God’s grace to be saved, but we can take the first step toward Christ on our own, apart from grace. - GotQuestions ]​

For you have not been saved by works . by the deeds of the flesh no flesh shall be justified. its by God's gracious mercy and provision recieved through Faith and then Eternal life is a gift of God . This pleases God through our faith in what he has done ( grace ) when we obey from the heart the Gospel which is the good news of what God has done by reconciliation and his work on the cross and subsequent resurrection anyone can freely recieve Jesus through faith .

 

[MB]

Save your concerns.
I am reluctant to attempt to articulate the view of another, but I do not believe that MB claims that Gods Word changes the heart, I believe that he advocates God responding to the faith of and from the person and then God acting to save. You can ask him for clarification of his beliefs.

I am a Doctrine of Grace monergist, so I hold to a different paradigm of how God saves.

I'm sorry you must have a lot of hatred for me. You misrepresent what I stated because like your understanding of scripture it's seriously skewed by preconceived thought. You think there fore I must have said. Like scripture must be saying because of your preconceived thinking. You are so far off the road your sinking in the swamp.

The bible is called the "gospel of our Salvation" for a reason. Because it is. I'll bet you have no idea why. When we hear the gospel the Holy Spirit is right there guiding the pastor as to what to say. Even just reading scripture the Holy Spirit is there.
Eph_1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

You should never under estimate the power of the gospel. It is God's Holy word. And you have no right to judge it.
MB

 

[percho]

Everyone?
If so, then please provide the Scriptures that you see where He does that.

I would like to address that relative to the Holy Spirit. Because I believe there is one in OT repeated in NT.

Consider: And in the last, the great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, 'If any one doth thirst, let him come unto me and drink; he who is believing in me, according as the Writing said, Rivers out of his belly shall flow of living water;' and this he said of the Spirit, which those believing in him were about to receive; for not yet was the Holy Spirit, because Jesus was not yet glorified. John 7:37-39 YLT --- An important verse I believe.

OT Joel 2:28 KJV And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
NT Acts 2:17 KJV And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

However dis they see that taking place on that day or do we see that taking place today? Poured out on all flesh?

Examples; Paul on the road to Damascus. It was a group of people yet it appears Jesus only called one and as far as we know Paul was the only one to receive the Spirit and that was three days later.

Even on that Pentecost, there must have been tens of thousands in Jerusalem yet only about three thousand were, by the Spirit, added. We see the same thing with the us and them of Acts 15.

Yet the scriptures state the Spirit will be poured out on all flesh.

I believe the key is in; In yet the last day, that great of the festival.

Why did Jesus pick that day to preach that?

Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel. And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves, And shall put my Spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD Ezekiel 37:12-14

Acts 15:16,17 After this (After I take out a people for my name. See the first 14 verses) I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

Compare Acts 15:16,17 to Joel 2:32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

 

[Scott Downey]

Hebrews 12:2
looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Acts 3:16
And His name, through faith in His name, has made this man strong, whom you see and know.
Yes, the faith which comes through Him has given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all

Romans 12
3 For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith.

Ok, my mouse is killing me today, but I managed to post these 3 verses about how faith is a gift come through HIM,

 

[Scott Downey]

Yes everyone.
7Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
8And when he is come, he will reprove the WORLD of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9Of sin, because they believe not on me;
10Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
11Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.
12¶I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

Those verses speak nothing about salvation, you must admit this!

convict as in a court, of your guilt, God sends people to hell for their sins, because they do NOT believe in Christ, the evil deeds they do, and they are condemned for their unbelief.

righteousness, because Christ has all powerful God the Creator's favor, approval, and grace, so He then ascends into heaven to sit at God's right hand, and where He Christ goes, they can never come. their fate is the same as the devil's.

judgement, of the devil, the world is judged guilty along with the devil who is their evil leader, this is going to be their destruction

so yes He convicts reproves the world of its sin. There is no mention of any salvation or favoring grace here, only a coming destruction for the world.

 

[Barry Johnson]

Those verses speak nothing about salvation, you must admit this!

convict as in a court, of your guilt, God sends people to hell for their sins, because they do NOT believe in Christ, the evil deeds they do, and they are condemned for their unbelief.

righteousness, because Christ has all powerful God the Creator's favor, approval, and grace, so He then ascends into heaven to sit at God's right hand, and where He Christ goes, they can never come. their fate is the same as the devil's.

judgement, of the devil, the world is judged guilty along with the devil who is their evil leader, this is going to be their destruction

so yes He convicts reproves the world of its sin. There is no mention of any salvation or favoring grace here, only a coming destruction for the world.

When you says ' sins ' do you mean the ones Jesus died and paid for ?
The Holy Spirit Convicts the world of not Believing on Jesus.( Specific) Not ' sins ' .general . Why would people be paying for sins in hell ? When sins have been dealt with ? 2.cor 5 .19 . I believe people will be in hell because of not being glorified. Refusing to believe the truth so as to be saved . The truth of the Gospel. Which is the only means to be glorified.

 

[Scott Downey]

When you says ' sins ' do you mean the ones Jesus died and paid for ?
The Holy Spirit Convicts the world of not Believing on Jesus.( Specific) Not ' sins ' .general . Why would people be paying for sins in hell ? When sins have been dealt with ? 2.cor 5 .19 . I believe people will be in hell because of not being glorified. Refusing to believe the truth so as to be saved . The truth of the Gospel. Which is the only means to be glorified.

Jesus is speaking about the unbelieving world. That world is convicted of their sins because they do not believe in Him.

Then further on Jesus is saying He, the Holy Spirit will come to you, (believing disciples), He will be within you and guide you (believers) into all truth.