Is Faith an exclusive gift ?

[Barry Johnson]

Why did John write what he included in his Gospel? (John 20:31)

I'm sure you don't apply this verse to yourself or anyone else today :
And when he saw them, he said unto them, Go shew yourselves unto the priests. And it came to pass, that, as they went, they were cleansed.

Or this verse : 14Make thee an ark of gopher wood; rooms shalt thou make in the ark, and shalt pitch it within and without with pitch.

 

[atpollard]

Because it happened. We read what happened to them . All of the bible is for us not all the bible is to us .What some do when they read the bible is they read every verse as if its to them directly.

Yet NONE of the OT was given to us and none of the Law of Moses is for us, but suddenly you will likely change the rules of your slippery hermeneutics.

 

[atpollard]

I'm sure you don't apply this verse to yourself or anyone else today :
And when he saw them, he said unto them, Go shew yourselves unto the priests. And it came to pass, that, as they went, they were cleansed.

Or this verse : 14Make thee an ark of gopher wood; rooms shalt thou make in the ark, and shalt pitch it within and without with pitch.

You would be wrong.

The first verse is applicable to anyone that believes they must still obey the Law of Moses and has just been healed of leprosy and wants to be readmitted to an orthodox community.

• I do not apply it to myself because I am not under that Law and I do not have leprosy.

The second verse applies to anyone that intends to build an ark. As it turns out, there is at least one modern ark, so I would have directed the individual interested in building the ark to that verse if they inquired.

• I do not apply it to myself because I am not Noah and God has not commanded me to do what he commanded Noah to do. However, if I intended to build an ark, then I would consult that verse.

I find it more disturbing that you feel the commands of Jesus in the Gospels were not meant for modern believers because we are not Apostles or Jews. That renders John’s claim in John 20:31 a farse. I must respectfully but firmly disagree with you on the purpose of the Gospel. It was most certainly written to and for ME.

 

[atpollard]

Paradigm being the key point here .

We cannot all be Apostles like you, and have little voices that whisper infallible truths into our ears so we can speak ‘ex cathedra’ like you do. So we have to struggle to comprehend the spiritual truths and mysteries of HOW and WHY God does the what that scripture proclaims God does.

We apologize for lacking your omniscience.

 

[Scott Downey]

You would be wrong.


I find it more disturbing that you feel the commands of Jesus in the Gospels were not meant for modern believers because we are not Apostles or Jews. That renders John’s claim in John 20:31 a farce. I must respectfully but firmly disagree with you on the purpose of the Gospel. It was most certainly written to and for ME.

Yes to that, Jesus in John 17 included what He had spoken to all who would believe, not just His disciples. And He says verse 24, 'they also whom you gave me', so then the election extends beyond the few disciples.

20 “I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; 21 that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. 22 And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: 23 I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.

24 “Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world. 25 O righteous Father! The world has not known You, but I have known You; and these have known that You sent Me. 26 And I have declared to them Your name, and will declare it, that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them.”

 

[Scott Downey]

AND then Hebrews 2 also CONFIRMS this teaching with that in bringing many sons to glory, even to the same wording believers are all of one
Hebrews 2

10 For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. 11 For both He who sanctifies and those who are being sanctified are all of one, for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren,

12 saying:
“I will declare Your name to My brethren;
In the midst of the assembly I will sing praise to You.”

13 And again:
“I will put My trust in Him.”
And again:
“Here am I and the children whom God has given Me.”

Honestly if the disputer of this age refuses to read with comprehension what it says, you cant make them see, they are fully convinced in their own mind, and for them it is a stronghold binding them and blinding them (stranglehold).

 

[Barry Johnson]

Yet NONE of the OT was given to us and none of the Law of Moses is for us, but suddenly you will likely change the rules of your slippery hermeneutics.

All of the bible is for us ( For our understanding and teaching. Not all of the bible is TO us . ( Directly speaking to us and for us to follow )

 

[Barry Johnson]

You would be wrong.

The first verse is applicable to anyone that believes they must still obey the Law of Moses and has just been healed of leprosy and wants to be readmitted to an orthodox community.

• I do not apply it to myself because I am not under that Law and I do not have leprosy.

The second verse applies to anyone that intends to build an ark. As it turns out, there is at least one modern ark, so I would have directed the individual interested in building the ark to that verse if they inquired.

• I do not apply it to myself because I am not Noah and God has not commanded me to do what he commanded Noah to do. However, if I intended to build an ark, then I would consult that verse.

I find it more disturbing that you feel the commands of Jesus in the Gospels were not meant for modern believers because we are not Apostles or Jews. That renders John’s claim in John 20:31 a farse. I must respectfully but firmly disagree with you on the purpose of the Gospel. It was most certainly written to and for ME.

The command is to Noah dummy .

 

[Barry Johnson]

We cannot all be Apostles like you, and have little voices that whisper infallible truths into our ears so we can speak ‘ex cathedra’ like you do. So we have to struggle to comprehend the spiritual truths and mysteries of HOW and WHY God does the what that scripture proclaims God does.

We apologize for lacking your omniscience.

Being Gnostic, don't you have those secret ears to hear that only the initiated enlightened ones who have the ' knowledge ' can understand?

 

[atpollard]

The command is to Noah dummy .

I know, that’s what I said.
(You really should read the posts that you respond to.)

 

[atpollard]

I'm sure you don't apply this verse to yourself or anyone else today :
And when he saw them, he said unto them, Go shew yourselves unto the priests. And it came to pass, that, as they went, they were cleansed.

Or this verse : 14Make thee an ark of gopher wood; rooms shalt thou make in the ark, and shalt pitch it within and without with pitch.

Wrong. That is NOT why John wrote what he included in his Gospel according to John 20:31.

 

[atpollard]

Being Gnostic ...

Wrong again.
I am not a Gnostic and have no secret knowledge. I just actually read what the Bible says and believe what I read.

 

[Dave G]

Being Gnostic, don't you have those secret ears to hear that only the initiated enlightened ones who have the ' knowledge ' can understand?

Barry,

Some of what you post seems to come across as mocking in its tone...
Which I'm unable to figure out why you would resort to such behavior, given the subjects you are speaking about.
Do you even realize how very serious that this is?
I'm not sure that you do.

The reason that the Spirit is given, is so that the ones who are indwelt with Him can know the things that are freely given to them by God ( 1 Corinthians 2:6-16 ).
Those very things are spoken by Paul in the epistles...
In other words, the word of God contains all the answers to the questions you keep asking.

Scripture tells us that those who are "of God" hear God's words...
Those that are not, do not ( John 8:43-47 ).

If they are not born again and do not have the Spirit of God, then they do not have what is necessary to enlighten their minds to the truth of His words.
People who are saved and believe God's word, find it to be a powerful and special thing...
While those who do not, find His words not worth listening to, unbelievable ( 1 Corinthians 1:18 ) or unable to comprehend ( "gnostic" ) no matter how much they study it.

Therefore, anyone that has been born again has had a place reserved for them at God's table from the foundation of the world ( Matthew 25:34 ).
They have had the one thing that is necessary to open their eyes to the truth of His words, come into their lives and take up residence with their bodies as His temple;
The Spirit of God Himself.

Which brings me to a question:

You've believed on Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, haven't you?
You believe the word of God, do you not?

Then according to God's word, it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of Heaven ( Matthew 13:10-11 ), but to those who are outside of Christ all things are done in parables ( Mark 4:11-12 )...
As well as being given to you not only to believe on Christ, but to suffer for His sake ( Philippians 1:29 ).
Praise Him for His unspeakable gift, Barry, and count yourself among the redeemed.

To be outside of that will be a very terrible thing, my friend.
But to be inside of it is a very special gift that few men, relatively speaking when compared to all that have ever lived and died ( Matthew 7:14, Revelation 7:9 ), will ever have the privilege to be afforded.


This is why I encourage you to study His word deeply...
Because the answers you keep accusing "Calvinists" of being "gnostic" over, are right on the pages of His word.

The only way I've ever found them, is by ignoring all the commentaries and simply availing myself of the Scriptures.
To me, it's simply amazing ( and sobering ) what one finds when they just pick up the Bible and read it for themselves.
Over and over again for years.

As always, I wish you well, sir.

 

[Barry Johnson]

Barry,

Some of what you post seems to come across as mocking in its tone...
Which I'm unable to figure out why you would resort to such behavior, given the subjects you are speaking about.
Do you even realize how very serious that this is?
I'm not sure that you do.

The reason that the Spirit is given, is so that the ones who are indwelt with Him can know the things that are freely given to them by God ( 1 Corinthians 2:6-16 ).
Those very things are spoken by Paul in the epistles...
In other words, the word of God contains all the answers to the questions you keep asking.

Scripture tells us that those who are "of God" hear God's words...
Those that are not, do not ( John 8:43-47 ).

If they are not born again and do not have the Spirit of God, then they do not have what is necessary to enlighten their minds to the truth of His words.
People who are saved and believe God's word, find it to be a powerful and special thing...
While those who do not, find His words not worth listening to, unbelievable ( 1 Corinthians 1:18 ) or unable to comprehend ( "gnostic" ) no matter how much they study it.

Therefore, anyone that has been born again has had a place reserved for them at God's table from the foundation of the world ( Matthew 25:34 ).
They have had the one thing that is necessary to open their eyes to the truth of His words, come into their lives and take up residence with their bodies as His temple;
The Spirit of God Himself.

Which brings me to a question:

You've believed on Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, haven't you?
You believe the word of God, do you not?

Then according to God's word, it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of Heaven ( Matthew 13:10-11 ), but to those who are outside of Christ all things are done in parables ( Mark 4:11-12 )...
As well as being given to you not only to believe on Christ, but to suffer for His sake ( Philippians 1:29 ).
Praise Him for His unspeakable gift, Barry, and count yourself among the redeemed.

To be outside of that will be a very terrible thing, my friend.
But to be inside of it is a very special gift that few men, relatively speaking when compared to all that have ever lived and died ( Matthew 7:14, Revelation 7:9 ), will ever have the privilege to be afforded.


This is why I encourage you to study His word deeply...
Because the answers you keep accusing "Calvinists" of being "gnostic" over, are right on the pages of His word.

The only way I've ever found them, is by ignoring all the commentaries and simply availing myself of the Scriptures.
To me, it's simply amazing ( and sobering ) what one finds when they just pick up the Bible and read it for themselves.
Over and over again for years.

As always, I wish you well, sir.

I agree with most of what your saying. I agree that as a believer with the Holy Spirit we can ,given that we study the Bible, continue to understand the deeper things of God. We can also remain as a babe if we fail to study . This is why of course its crucial to get in the word right away and stay in the word . As new babes its easy to fall pray to false doctrines. Most often than not nearly all Christians will believe wrong things for a time and be greatly impacted by this error . My journey has been that it was Calvinism that was the Theology that caused the greatest issues in my walk . This theology was the one that actually led me away from the bible. Thats why I'm so passionate about this discussion . Yes I'm aware of my short comings and I realise I'm not always as gracious as I should be . Once you see the harm and experience the harm of wrong doctrine then you can't un see it . Calvinism came into my thinking quite subtly and over time . We joined a church where it was taught subtly . I wasn't strong enough in the word to spot it . It took a great toll on our family and subsequently once we realised the situation we had to leave the church in the end . My character even changed because your world view does effect how we behave . All this to say ,I didn't even become a full blown calvinist . I just absorbed enough of its theology that it completely confused the way I understood the bible. Subsequently it has unfortunately taken a while to detangle from it . But I have grown and learned so much from it.
I recognise that when I now speak to calvisnts they are not seeing any negatives and it usually is defended passionately if you try and poke at it . I usually come at it through the way I started to see the error , and that was through the error of Lordship salvation then this led to expose the rest of the other points. Ultimately we have two Jesus s . One who died for the whole world and another that only died for some ..We have a Gospel that can be believed by all and another that can only be believed by some . This isn't like some other denominations where we might differ on head coverings and church membership ect . This is realising that ALL 5 points of a system , which are not minor points , are false. This is pretty serious. Please don't take it personally. I genuinely think Calvinism is one of the most harmful theologies / worldviews within the body , so I hope you at least see my heart in this .

 

[Dave G]

My journey has been that it was Calvinism that was the Theology that caused the greatest issues in my walk .

Mine has been the opposite..
The more I studied Scripture, the more I compared what I was seeing to "TULIP" and began to agree with it.

This theology was the one that actually led me away from the bible.

Barry,
I'm going to emphasize this once again...

Unlike many who are influenced by systematic theologies, I purposefully decided, early on, to ignore them.
Some years ago I decided to completely ignore what I had been taught in the churches I grew up in, and simply take it all back to God's word;
I was very surprised with the differences between what professing Christians are commonly taught, and what I was seeing in my studies.

Those theologies do not have any influence on me anymore.

This is realising that ALL 5 points of a system , which are not minor points , are false. This is pretty serious. Please don't take it personally.

I don't take it personally...
But like Amos 3:3 says, we cannot walk together in fellowship because we are not agreed on what constitutes sound doctrine.

As you've said, this is very serious...
and to me, it goes directly to the heart of how and why God saves someone.
It's not "the system", Barry...
It's what God's word states in those passages that I keep trying to show you.

 

[Dave G]

I genuinely think Calvinism is one of the most harmful theologies / worldviews within the body , so I hope you at least see my heart in this .

I do.
But I'm also sorry to read your view on this and believe me, it's not like I have not met "Baptists" that are unlike you, Barry.
To me there are many nowadays.
In fact, I was raised with such teachings for most of my life and found myself disagreeing with them more and more starting some 17 years ago now.

To be clear, I don't call the truths of election, predestination, calling, justification and glorification, "Calvinism".
I call it sound doctrine.
I also do not see the "harm" they cause, because to me those doctrines not only clarify the why and how God saves anyone, they lead to a genuine fear and respect for the Lord, His power and His right as King to decide a sinner's fate.

You probably see those things as "unfair", while I see them being completely within His right and privilege as Judge.
"Sovereign reprobation" is to me, a fact of the Bible.
God's choice of the sinner to salvation ( apart from any choice we might make as rebellious sinners ) I also see as a fact...
No matter how "unorthodox" it may be and no matter how "outside of the mainstream" it may put me.

Regrettably, I see no reason to continue our discussions, and truth be told I should have ended this long ago.
We simply do not agree with what the words on the page are stating.

To me the problem is on your end...
To you it's on my end.
I understand completely, and I bear you no ill will for any of it.
The simple fact of the matter is, you appear to see them one way, contextually, and I see them another.

It is this that keeps us from agreeing...
And again, unless two are agreed, can they walk together?
Regrettably, no.

This will be my final reply in this thread, and most probably my final reply to you regarding this subject.



With that said, I wish you well, as always.
May God bless you in this life and in the life to come, sir.