Is Faith Necessary for Salvation?

You believe the Bible contains all there is to God? Are you saying God, the supreme being and creator of the heavens of the earth can be told in 66 books? Even John said he saw Christ do more things than any book could hold. That is just one part of the God head.

I don't believe it would be possible to write all there is to God nor do I believe man has words capable of communicating such. Jesus said with Christ all things are possible so I place no limitations of the Gospel...

 

Exactly what I said, if one goes to hell because they never heard the word or were giving the opportunity to believe then the limitation would be with God. Yes, he has made us his messanger but our steps are ordered by him.

 

I like Spurgeon's answer to this problem. Unfortunately, it's not going to sit well with the free-willers, and may not even sit well with Calvinists. But here it is:

http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/sum&sub.htm

 

I agree... I believe God is faithful to his word and to his creation.

 

It's sits just well with me, as this is what I have argued for in the past here.

 

Let me translate what I'm hearing.

"I believe deep down in my heart that every single individual has heard and will hear the gospel If God wants all to be saved, it would be unfair for him not to make sure all are exposed to the good news.

"I do know that God so loved the world, that he died for everybody and somehow, some way he gets the gospel to everybody because everybody deserves a chance, even those God knows that some won't listen. I don't know how, and the Bible doesn't tell us but it's got to be true.

"And besides how you know he doesn't send the gospel to everybody. There's more to God than what we get from the Bible.

"I know the Bible says that Jehovah God limited his revelation to the Jews, and no missionaries were sent to the heathen nations (unless you count Joseph and Daniel, and we don't have a record of any of their converts--oh maybe Nebuchadnezzar), but somehow, someway, they must have heard. Otherwise God wouldn't be fair. And even today, though the evidence seems to show that there are billons who don't know about God or Jesus or the gospel, somehow they must know.

"I don't have much Bible to back me up on this, but it just has to be that way.

"Oh, by the way, if I'm wrong,then I'm sure God has provided another way of salvation for those pagans and heathen. You see, God loves everybody, and they deserve a chance, and it..it..just woujldn't be fair. I know this is not in the Bible, but it has to be so."


That's what I'm hearing, and I have to say that this kind of stuff coming from Baptists just blows my mind. Now you may protest that I'm misreading you, misquoting you, taking things out of context, or missing your meaning--or I'm just plain wrong. That may be, but that's the way I take it.

 

Maybe the problem is your mind is limited. You obviously believe the Bible contains everything there is to know about God. I say no book can contain everything there is to know about God.

John 21:25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.

This is just in regards to the Son and a 3 year ministry and does not include the Holy Spirit or the Father.

Also keep in mind that God is infinate wisdom. How would man with limited wisdom comprehend a God whose wisdom is infinite.

God said in his word the Gospel is for the world, you may not believe his word is true but if any portion is not true then you might as well not believe the rest. If God sent his son for the world, and the world must hear to receive then he must have a plan.

 

Personally I think Spurgeon was more clear in his Sermon: Defence of Calvinism.
Please...read on...

Copied from Spurgeon sermon: Defence of Calvanism


Tom:
Israel Was the revelation and testimony of God to Pagan nations. God had them treck ALL OVER the place fighting and befriending whole nations that the world would know there was a God in Israel. But even before that we see Adam and Eve would have told ALL there children and grandchildren. Since man is responsible for what he believes and we know they continued to choose against the knowledge of God - there came a flood. This started all over again with Noah and his family. They told of God to all their children but not all would recieve the truth of knowledge of God and would still go their own way. But instead of killing off man kind again (like in the days of Noah) God allowed men to continue while choosing Abraham and his family. There has always been a people who proclaimed truth for it followed them where ever they went as they were decendents of those who DID know the truth. Creation declares as says the scriptures there is a God and our conscience (that law in our heart) speak to something greater but those who are not under law are not held accountable to the law. It is not a question of has everyone heard of Jesus but has God given everyone ample evidence that proves God exists and that He desires more than just existence from us. (IMO) The person who acceptes (in principle) this, God will send someone WITH THE Gospel that through hearing the Word of God they may be save. But have anyone of these people ever started off with NO knowledge of the true God. Not according to Gen. with regard specifically due to Adam, Noah, Abraham (we can to into Ex. and further but this is good).

.

 

I think Spurgeon's defense of Calvinism is right on the mark. God is sovereign over every detail, and man is morally responsible. As far as I can tell, these two statements do not contradict each other, and I'm not sure why Spurgeon thought they did.

 

Because classical or Historic (forgot which was which, sorry) Calvinism (that Calvinism which those who lived around mid-1850s and back believed) does not allow for mans responsibility Spurgeon in another sermon speaking on Mans responsibility states many other Calvinists of his day considered and even discribed him as a mongrel Calvinist. Why, He states because He holds to both Gods soveriengty AND mans responsiblity. This means one of a two things as I see it:

1. Either Calvinism has changed from its core teachings of old. Which it has and few hold to the classical calvinism.
or
2. His view on mans responsibility is different than that of Classical Calvinism in some form or respect.

Spurgeon NEVER, EVER held to the classical free-will mentality that man apart from God could choose salvation and I agree with him as do many Non-C's. This is true and he spoke out against it vehemently.

However Spurgeon did speak at times of man being free to choose, for he spoke of the whosoevers, come drink freely, all who are weary - come that he mentions does not line up with Calvinism of the Classical or historic sense.

This was a sermon (if memory serves) done in later years of his ministry.
Note his words again.

It is of no real never-mind as Spurgeon is not scripture.

Actually this is not what the Op is about so I will leave off here. I went off topic though because I answered a question/comment that was never actually asked. Sorry about that.

 

LeBuick,

I certainly don't think that all that can be known about God is limited to what the Scriptures tell us.

But I'm confused. One the one hand, you quote Acts 4:12 "There is no other name under heaven whereby we must be saved. (Post #12). Yet you insist that there must be another way for God to save those who've never heard of Jesus. Another plan of salvation that the Bible does not reveal, but must be out there somewhere.

Am I reading you right? No other name but Jesus for salvation. But there is another way for some folks.

What is that alternate plan? Skypair thinks it's just "repent and trust God."
Do you agree? If not, what is it and how will the pagans know what it is so they can be saved? And who will take this alternate plan to them? And if somebody takes the alternative to them, why not just go ahead and tell them about Jesus at the same time?

Then I perceive that none of this may be necessary after all since every human being will hear the gospel and have a chance to choose Christ or reject him. This extra-biblical plan of salvation is just a fallback position in case you turn out to be wrong about the universal proclamation of the gospel.

I repeat what I said before. If all people are exposed to the concept of God, and enough of the gospel of Jesus Christ to be saved independently of means, without ever hearing a missionary, preacher, layman, reading a tract, hearing a broadcat, without any human involvement, why evangelize in the first place?

I continue to be amazed that we are having this conversation.

 

No, you are not reading my post correctly. There is no other way whereby men must be saved. Jesus is THE only way.

Question to you, who are the 144 thousand in the book of Revelations?

The discussion was about what happens to the parts of the world which the gospel does not reach? My answer was the Gospel will reach all men and all men will be given a chonce to choose or reject Christ. It is the how that we don't understand but we don't know all there is to know about God so we have to accept some unknowns. God did not give us all the answers.

What challenge does that leave us, there are some who have died in un-civilized parts of the world. Yet God has given every man a "measure" of faith. This was the area my post were addressing. Please read them again in that light.


You said

I agree...

 

LeBuick, thanks for your reply.

You asked:Question to you, who are the 144 thousand in the book of Revelations?

I frankly don't know beyond what the passage in chapter 7 tells us. It describes them as servants who have been sealed. Interestingly, Dan is missing, and Manassah is in his place

The popular dispy view is that they are 144,000 Jewish evangelists. I have my doubts. In Rev 14, there's a reference to 144,000 men, redeemed from among men, virgins. Don't know if they're the same 144,000 or not.
In the six lines you now have the sum total of my knowledge about them. In fact, I probably know even less than I think I do.

 

As LeBuick said, each person is given a measure of faith-a portion of light. I think it's up to the individual as to what he does with that measure of faith and light. I think God holds each person accountable for what they do with what He has revealed to them. In this country for instance I believe we have the least excuse for not having faith than any other nation on earth since Adam. Churches are everywhere, Bibles can be purchased freely (and are even in hotel rooms). But in nations where there is no religious freedom and the gospel is hard if not impossible to get to, God has still revealed Himself in His creation and invisible attributes so that no one has an excuse. These people are accountable for the measure of faith or light God has given them. Those of us in the U.S. have a bigger responsibility because we have been given a huge amount of light. We are to take the gospel to the ends of the earth because we are commanded to..period. But it is arrogant to think that God cannot save souls without our help.
As for the OP, "is faith necessary for salvation?" ....Yes. Abraham believed God and it was counted to him as righteousness.
Just my thoughts.

 

What is the purpose of God's revelation to all mankind through His creation as stated in Romans 1:19-20?
Are you saying that God reveals Himself and then denies salvation because they didn't hear the gospel? If God denies salvation then what was the purpose in revealing Himself in the first place?

 

Amy stop! You are not supposed to make sense!

 

Your opinion is noted, and so is your arrogance. Just because your name says "theologian" doesn't mean you are one.

That's fine. We won't discuss it then.

Psalms 19:1-2 The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.
2 Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge.

Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Romans 2:14-15 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

We are all responsible to the light that we have. Romans one tells how those who had light rejected it.

Your entitled to your opinion.
If you can't take the heat stay out of the fire. My suggestion to you is to take your ego, pride and arrogance and dump them in pail of humility.
If you want to complain to the administration about me you are within your rights to do so. This is a debate forum. If you can't debate without complaining about moderators then maybe you shouldn't be here. So take your own advice and grow up.

Any one that assumes how much spiritual light the rest of the world has or does not have is putting them in the place of God. You are not God. Don't try and play that position. You don't know how much spiritual light others have had in other nations. Don't pretend that you do.

Your arrogance in your last statement shows that you don't belong on this board.
However, I simply quoted Scripture to you. You didn't deal with the Scripture. Instead you attacked me. What does that say about your theology? Not much. I'll post it again:

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
--Now let's get it straight. That is the Word of God, not my words. I am simply the messenger here. If you don't want to believe God in this matter you can take it up with him. The fact of the matter is, the Holy Spirit claims that salvation has appeared to all men Are you going to argue with it, or believe it. Your argument is with Scripture not with me. So stay on topic. Don't attack me this time.

Your opinion--not backed up by anything but---your opinion. How would I ever guess? Care to elaborate how ALL nations of ALL men also refers to ALL men in ALL nations. I guess ALL does mean ALL doesn't it?

Perhaps you may misunderstand my view. You may think I contradict other Scripture, but I don't.

They can't.
1. The grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men.
2. Rom.1:20--They are without excuse.
3. The heavens declare the glory of God.
4. Their conscience bears them witness.
5. They have the law written in their hearts.
6. God has given them light; as he gives a measure of light to every man.
7. In his grace he will give the light to any man who, acting on the light that he has already received, wants more light--that is wants to be saved. That also is the essence of what Spurgeon said.
8. In connection with the above (#7), if he doesn't receive that light (the light of the gospel), then his blood will be upon your hands and you will give account for it. But God doesn't need you. If you disobey his call he will send someone else in your place.
There is no command in the Bible to stay at home. The only command is to go into all the world. If a person has not received a definite call to stay at home then God has called him to go into all the world.

You have no idea what I believe do you?
DHK

 

The purpose of God's natural revelation (what everyone knows about him from the witness of creation) is given in the same passage in Romans 1--it's to give God just grounds for condemning people: "so that men are without excuse." That there is natural revelation simply means that all people have broken commandment #1. The purpose of natural revelation is not salvation, but condemnation.

It is the revelation of Christ and his work that brings salvation. That's why Paul was so determined to get the gospel message out: because it's the gospel message that "is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek."

natural revelation = condemnation
gospel revelation = salvation

It's all in that same chapter--Romans 1.

And it isn't as if God denies someone salvation, which makes it seem as if everyone has a right to salvation, and God refuses to give it to them. What everyone has a right to is condemnation, because condemnation is what they have earned by their rejection of the God they know exists because they see his handiwork.