Is Faith Necessary for Salvation?

[LeBuick]

Back about 50 or so posts ago, LeBuick said:
John 3:16 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

God sent his son to save the world. If God limits who hears the Gospel, then this verse is not true. I believe God is obligated to give everyone a chance at salvation, it was the very reason he sent his son. God's Gospel is for the world.

This view was also advanced by some others that every person in the world receives enough of the gospel to be saved, otherwise God would not be fair. Further, in the OT, every person had to be aware of Jehovah God.

How then do we square that position with the following scriptures?:

Ephesians 2:12 "...that at that time you (Gentiles) were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants and promise, having no hope and without God in the world."

Dr. Robert Reymond, quoted in the blog Old Truth, also offers these other scriptures:

Acts 14:16 God "..in past times, allowed the nations (Gentiles) to walk in their own way.."

Acts 17:30 Paul, on Mars Hill preached that God had winked at (overlooked) their ignorance. Dr. Reymond says this is in the sense that God did nothing to overcome it.

Psalm 147:19-20 "He showeth his word unto Jacob, his statues and judgments to Israel. He hath not dealt so with any nation: And as for his judgments, they have not known them. Praise ye the Lord."

And Dr. Reymond cites this interesting one. In Matthew 11:25, Jesus thanked his Father that he had "hidden these things from the wise and prudent and revealed them to babes." And then Jesus followed by saying that the Father had done this because it pleased him to do so.

One more from Dr. Raymond: In Acts 16, Luke records that Paul and his traveling companions passed through the Phrygian and Galatian region having been forbidden by the Spirit to speak the word in Asia.

Acts 16 also notes that Paul wanted to go to Bithynia, but the Spirit wouldn't let them.

Then, Lebuick, you said in post #12:
Also, saying some will not receive the goodnews to me places the limitation on God and his Son who promised to draw ALL men and not just those who heard the word. This is why I believe God still has a plan of salvation even if it's not included in the Bible.

Given the scriptures quoted above, then it seems that you are left with that other plan of salvation that does not include the gospel.

You lost me here, you are referencing a time when God was only the God of the Jews. How does that relate to his son or any of the statements I made?

I don't see where I said there was a plan of salvation that did not include the Son, can you direct me to that post?

 

[Tom Butler]

I don't see where I said there was a plan of salvation that did not include the Son, can you direct me to that post?

Actually, you did insist that there is no other name under heaven (but Christ) by which we must be saved. Then, in post #12 you said
This is why I believe God still has a plan of salvation even if it's not included in the Bible.

I saw those two statements as conflicting. I concluded that if the plan of salvation that is in the Bible is faith in Christ, then the one that's not in the Bible must be something else that does not involve faith in Christ. Can you see how I might reach that conclusion?

So, if I accept your premise, then the logical questions are, what is that plan? How do we find out what it is? How do the lost to whom it applies hear about it? Even if I grant you that this unknown plan must include faith in Christ, how can we know? And if it does include faith in Christ, what's different about it from the gospel we do know about in the Bible?

That's the reason I said that if the scriptures I cited earlier undercut the idea that all men will have a chance to hear the gospel, then the unknown plan of salvation is all that is left to fall back on.

 

[MB]

Hi Baptist Pastor;

The basic idea in freewill theology is that Christ died for everyone and everyone has an opportunity to believe the gospel. When I have faced this argument in the past I have brought up the fact that not every has an opportunity to believe the gospel because there have been billions of people on the face of this earth who have not had a chance to receive Christ.

I have no honest answer about those who have never heard. Only the guilt of my own responsibility to preach the gospel to every living creature. After all this is our responsibility. When we give an account to the Lord, what are we going to say? I'm afraid we have no excuse. Can we honestly claim we have surrendered all when there is one left who hasn't heard? I my self have used the excuse that "well I wasn't called to be a missionary" Yet the mission isn't about a calling but a commandment of the Lord.

To shepard the flock is a calling, to preach the gospel to every living creature is a commission, or commandment to all who are saved. I wonder how many times I've failed to obey this commandment.

There are temporal possibilities for every living creature. I can't accept that God's foreknowledge is why there are people in the world who never hear the gospel, and /or isn't saved. I believe it is possible for anyone to be saved who does hear it. The possibility of Salvation is in the reason that Christ died for the ungodly. Foremost all things are possible with God.
Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Our possibility for Salvation is in the word "might" He didn't say we would be saved but might be saved. At any rate our Salvation is completely dependant on God. When we believe,we believe not because of something we have inside of us but solely because it's the work of God.
Joh 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
Belief in Christ is created by God upon our listening to the gospel; Romans 10:17 and our hearing it is dependant upon God as well because someone must be sent to preach it to us.

Our Salvation is all of God because it was, and is God that makes it possible.
MB

 

[MB]

I'm sorry for some reason my cut and paste from word wasn't complete.

Faith is necessary for Salvation Because Grace comes through it.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

With out faith we have no Grace;
Rom 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
Rom 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
This faith isn't something we have generated our selves but is by the work of God in us.
Joh 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
MB

 

[Baptist_Pastor/Theologian]

Hi Baptist Pastor;

I have no honest answer about those who have never heard. Only the guilt of my own responsibility to preach the gospel to every living creature. After all this is our responsibility. When we give an account to the Lord, what are we going to say? I'm afraid we have no excuse. Can we honestly claim we have surrendered all when there is one left who hasn't heard? I my self have used the excuse that "well I wasn't called to be a missionary" Yet the mission isn't about a calling but a commandment of the Lord.

To shepard the flock is a calling, to preach the gospel to every living creature is a commission, or commandment to all who are saved. I wonder how many times I've failed to obey this commandment.

There are temporal possibilities for every living creature. I can't accept that God's foreknowledge is why there are people in the world who never hear the gospel, and /or isn't saved. I believe it is possible for anyone to be saved who does hear it. The possibility of Salvation is in the reason that Christ died for the ungodly. Foremost all things are possible with God.
Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Our possibility for Salvation is in the word "might" He didn't say we would be saved but might be saved. At any rate our Salvation is completely dependant on God. When we believe,we believe not because of something we have inside of us but solely because it's the work of God.
Joh 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
Belief in Christ is created by God upon our listening to the gospel; Romans 10:17 and our hearing it is dependant upon God as well because someone must be sent to preach it to us.

Our Salvation is all of God because it was, and is God that makes it possible.
MB

I agree with your overall position, however, I would add that not only is our salvation all of God but according to Eph. 2 it is not of ourselves. If someone desires to know God apart from direct or special revelation that is of themselves. I do not like the prospect of anyone dying and going to hell, but I am not willing to compromise the Gospel in order to accommodate or include those who do not have faith in Christ.

 

[psalms109:31]

Salvation

We are being saved from death.

Since our wages of our sin is death, we cannot pay the price for our salvation.

So in fact our salvation does not come from ourself it comes from the work of Jesus.

For anyone to say thier salvation came from themselves they would have to pay thier own wages, but that is not salvation but death.

So we have to trust in Jesus, He is our only hope.

 

[El_Guero]

Is Faith Necessary for Salvation?

There is something wrong with that question being asked on a Baptist Forum. Yes, faith in Jesus Christ is the only method of salvation. Not faith in Jean Calvin and not faith in Jacobus Arminius.

 

[Baptist_Pastor/Theologian]

There is something wrong with that question being asked on a Baptist Forum. Yes, faith in Jesus Christ is the only method of salvation. Not faith in Jean Calvin and not faith in Jacobus Arminius.

If it were not for those who think that one can be saved with the light they have, therefore, not by faith based on knowledge of the Gospel, I would not need to ask it.

 

[Blammo]

If it were not for those who think that one can be saved with the light they have, therefore, not by faith based on knowledge of the Gospel, I would not need to ask it.

I may be mistaken, but I don't think anyone claimed a sinner is saved by whatever light they may have. I believe the argument was that God, who is omnipresent/omniscient, knows how people respond to what little light they may have. Like the Ethiopian eunuch who was seeking a deeper understanding of the truth. The Holy Spirit sent Philip to the eunuch.

Isn't that what we see in Romans 10?

 

[LeBuick]

So, if I accept your premise, then the logical questions are, what is that plan? How do we find out what it is? How do the lost to whom it applies hear about it? Even if I grant you that this unknown plan must include faith in Christ, how can we know? And if it does include faith in Christ, what's different about it from the gospel we do know about in the Bible?.

Yes, I see how my statements might be confused.

I have absolute faith there is only one way to the kingdom and Jesus is the way.

The conversation was centered on how or will the Gospel be offered to every person on the earth. Christ's Church has the mission of spreading the good news but Man is limited and still have not reached every man, woman and child with the Gospel. There are people dieing everyday who have never heard the good news.

My other than in the Bible comments were addressing this. I believe God has a plan of Grace that will compensate for Man's limitation to assure everyone will heard the good news and have a chance to accept or reject the Gospal before spending an internity in hell. This is also what I meant by the Bible does not contain everything there is to know about God.

In the OT, God was only the God of the Jews. He dealt with Israel as a nation and he dealt with people of Israel individually. He was their God and they were his people. Then notice what Jesus did on the second day of his death. He "went and preached unto the spirits in prison (1 Pet 3:19). That wasn't expected.

Now who were these spirits that received the Gospel? Matthew had already told us what happened when Jesus died. He said, "the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus' resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people''(Matthew 27:52,53).

Were these the souls only of them who died in the faith? Was it the ones who died during the flood? Were they only Jews or were there others, uncircumcised?

My point, the Bible shows us the good news has been preached to more than the living, as we see it was also preached to the dead. I believe if the Gospel was meant for "ALL" then God has a plan for "ALL" to hear the good news.

 

[LeBuick]

I have no honest answer about those who have never heard. Only the guilt of my own responsibility to preach the gospel to every living creature. After all this is our responsibility. When we give an account to the Lord, what are we going to say? I'm afraid we have no excuse. Can we honestly claim we have surrendered all when there is one left who hasn't heard? I my self have used the excuse that "well I wasn't called to be a missionary" Yet the mission isn't about a calling but a commandment of the Lord.

Great point, to add, what if the one who had never received the good news was the drunk that sat daily on your corner? Or outside the starbucks you visited every morning? The one at your job who sat in the next cubicle or emptied the trash for 20 years? The person who sat next to you on the airplane or bus?

Makes you think about that word Missionary, doesn't it?

 

[MB]

Hi LeBuick;

what if the one who had never received the good news was the drunk that sat daily on your corner? Or outside the starbucks you visited every morning? The one at your job who sat in the next cubicle or emptied the trash for 20 years? The person who sat next to you on the airplane or bus?

Makes you think about that word Missionary, doesn't it?

Exactly my point
We may not travel off to some land that no one ever heard of but we can tell everyone we know and meet. The world around us is our mission Field.

Some of us worry about rejection at least I have. Although it isn't rejection we should be concerned about but just relax and let the Spirit work through us. I have no idea why I've had such a hard time with this. Ego perhaps. Our success isn't in the ones who believe that's God's work. Our is in being used of God for His purposes.
MB

 

[psalms109:31]

Scripture

Joh 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

The people was asking what the work that God wanted them to do, and He was simple stated the work of God is to believe in Him. In other words that is the work God wanted them to do.

 

[LeBuick]

Joh 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

The people was asking what the work that God wanted them to do, and He was simple stated the work of God is to believe in Him. In other words that is the work God wanted them to do.

AMEN Brother, Faith is our work....

 

[Baptist_Pastor/Theologian]

I may be mistaken, but I don't think anyone claimed a sinner is saved by whatever light they may have. I believe the argument was that God, who is omnipresent/omniscient, knows how people respond to what little light they may have. Like the Ethiopian eunuch who was seeking a deeper understanding of the truth. The Holy Spirit sent Philip to the eunuch.

Isn't that what we see in Romans 10?

Having the book of Isaiah preached to you as is the case in your above example and living in Asia or the Middle East and not having the Gospel is an entirely other matter.

 

[MB]

Hi Baptist Pastor;

I agree with your overall position, however, I would add that not only is our salvation all of God but according to Eph. 2 it is not of ourselves. If someone desires to know God apart from direct or special revelation that is of themselves. I do not like the prospect of anyone dying and going to hell, but I am not willing to compromise the Gospel in order to accommodate or include those who do not have faith in Christ.

I don't believe in compromise either. There are those who do. For what purpose I can only imagine.
Can a natural man see the light in spite of the darknes that surrounds it, with out the Spirit to encourage him? I don't believe so. In every instance when man comes to the light. He comes only as a result of the work of God. On the way to the light is when man begins to believe. If that Light is clouded with the compromising of the gospel then it can't be of God.

One thing I believe is accurate is that God doesn't compromise. You either come by Jesus Christ or you don't have Salvation. With out the righteousness of Christ, with what, could we hide our unrighteousness.
Lot's of people believe they can get there by them selves, by there own righteousness and good works. All of this is worthless because our righteousness is as filthy rags. We must put on the righteousness of Christ because ours is so worthless. We must completely surrender everything to God even our selves.

There was a rich man who asked Christ how he could have eternal life. However because he couldn't let go of all the wealth and do as Christ said to, and sell all that he had and give it to the poor and come and follow Him. He was still lost. However if he had surrendered all and done as told he would have been saved.
When we come to the point of surrender, many walk away not realizing that everything we surrender for Him is returned to us a many times over. It's all His anyway and we can't out give God. We not only surrender material things but also our families. Out of all that I love in this world, Jesus must come first in my life. There isn't anything more precious.

So many of us have avoided works because we aren't saved by works and this is true. How ever we forget that because of our being saved in the first place is why we should work. Our Love of our neighbors is our work, and is the preaching of the gospel to the world. Our success is to be used by Him to bring in the sheaves. I don't believe there could be a greater privlage, than to be used of God.

MB

 

[Blammo]

Having the book of Isaiah preached to you as is the case in your above example and living in Asia or the Middle East and not having the Gospel is an entirely other matter.

Let me get this straight.

Are you saying if a person in Asia or the Middle East does not have a copy of the Scriptures, God will not send a preacher?

 

[MB]

Hi Psalms 109:31;

Joh 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

The people was asking what the work that God wanted them to do, and He was simple stated the work of God is to believe in Him. In other words that is the work God wanted them to do.

Joh 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

How do we work the works of God if it's not being used by God to do his works? Can we do any work of God's with out God?
Joh 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
MB

 

[Baptist_Pastor/Theologian]

Let me get this straight.

Are you saying if a person in Asia or the Middle East does not have a copy of the Scriptures, God will not send a preacher?

No I am saying that if we do not go and preach to those without the Gospel and if they do not hear the Gospel and believe, they will go to hell.

 

[Amy.G]

No I am saying that if we do not go and preach to those without the Gospel and if they do not hear the Gospel and believe, they will go to hell.

Can God save a person even if a missionary doesn't go them?