Is Faith Necessary for Salvation?

[Blammo]

No I am saying that if we do not go and preach to those without the Gospel and if they do not hear the Gospel and believe, they will go to hell.

I already know that. Where is the misunderstanding?

 

[Baptist_Pastor/Theologian]

I already know that. Where is the misunderstanding?

The notion that if people do not hear the Gospel and believe it, is diametrically opposed to the notion that people do not need to hear the Gospel but rather are able to respond to God with the light they have.

 

[Blammo]

The notion that if people do not hear the Gospel and believe it, is diametrically opposed to the notion that people do not need to hear the Gospel but rather are able to respond to God with the light they have.

Well, other people may be saying a sinner can be saved without hearing and believing the Gospel, but it certainly is not me, and I am not sure I have heard it put that way by others either.

 

[jne1611]

Adrian Rogers once said that a sinner may not have enough light to save him, but he has enough sin to damn him. I have often thought of those who have never heard the gospel. Where they stand with God. But it is hard to get around what Rom 10 says about not believing on him whom they have not heard, & the need of the preacher. That's why I believe strongly in missions & I believe God will send a preacher to reach His elect around the world.

 

[Baptist_Pastor/Theologian]

Well, other people may be saying a sinner can be saved without hearing and believing the Gospel, but it certainly is not me, and I am not sure I have heard it put that way by others either.

My bad Blammo, I think I got you confused with some of the others in this discussion like webdog. .

[/quote]

***Personal attack against Moderator removed***

 

[Tom Butler]

Joh 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

The people was asking what the work that God wanted them to do, and He was simple stated the work of God is to believe in Him. In other words that is the work God wanted them to do.

I read this passage differently. I read it as saying that God's work is to bring people to faith in him. That God's work results in belief. That saving faith is a gift of God.

 

[Tom Butler]

Well, other people may be saying a sinner can be saved without hearing and believing the Gospel, but it certainly is not me, and I am not sure I have heard it put that way by others either.

Go back and start at the beginning of this thread. You'll find it in more than one place. You may not find it stated specifically, but as a deep hope and belief that there must be a way to heaven for those who never hear the gospel.

Stated another way: God desires all to be saved. All need the gospel to be saved. Therefore someway, somehow, all will hear the gospel. God is obligated, or he would be unfair.

BUT....BUT...if all don't hear the gospel, God must have provided another way to heaven that we don't know about, but must be that way, because everybody deserves a chance. God would be unfair otherwise.

You can see where a faulty premise will lead you.

 

[Tom Butler]

Can God save a person even if a missionary doesn't go them?

I think a better way to put it is that God does not save people independently of the gospel.

 

[jne1611]

I think a better way to put it is that God does not save people independently of the gospel.

There is the real question. Well put.

 

[Amy.G]

I think a better way to put it is that God does not save people independently of the gospel.

That didn't answer my question. I didn't ask if people could be saved without the gospel. I asked if God could save someone apart from a missionary.

 

[jne1611]

That didn't answer my question. I didn't ask if people could be saved without the gospel. I asked if God could save someone apart from a missionary.

Would that not be the same difference? Not being difficult, but, they would need someone to preach it would they not?

 

[Tom Butler]

Yes, I see how my statements might be confused.

I have absolute faith there is only one way to the kingdom and Jesus is the way.

The conversation was centered on how or will the Gospel be offered to every person on the earth. Christ's Church has the mission of spreading the good news but Man is limited and still have not reached every man, woman and child with the Gospel. There are people dieing everyday who have never heard the good news.

My other than in the Bible comments were addressing this. I believe God has a plan of Grace that will compensate for Man's limitation to assure everyone will heard the good news and have a chance to accept or reject the Gospal before spending an internity in hell.

If your premise is correct, then I can see where it logically will take you.

As you know, I disagree with the premise, so I wind up somewhere else.

Humanly speaking, I hope you're right.

I think we've whipped this puppy enough, so I'm pretty much going to lurk, unless something else comes along where I'm unable to resist a comment.

Thanks for a good discussion, and the Christ-like spirit in which you conducted yourself.

 

[Amy.G]

Would that not be the same difference? Not being difficult, but, they would need someone to preach it would they not?

This is a very difficult question for a lot of Christians, not just me. There have been millions of people who have already died that never heard the gospel. But among all those people there must have been at least a few that did respond to the general revelation that God gives every man. (Romans 1:20). According to one post (I forget who) the general revelation prepares a person's heart for the gospel. My question is this....what if the messenger never gets there? Their heart is ready, but there is no messenger of the gospel. Will they spend eternity in hell? According to BPT the answer is yes. I do not know the answer, but I do not think it is that clear cut. The Bible says Jesus went and preached to the spirits in prison who formerly were disobedient (1Peter 3:19-20). I want to believe that Jesus may just do the same with those poor souls who never hear the gospel but would respond if they were presented with it. I believe God will find a way to get the gospel to those who he knows will answer His call.

 

[LeBuick]

As you know, I disagree with the premise, so I wind up somewhere else..

If I'm wrong then God made some men just to be fuel in hell's fire. Except they won't be consumed so we get to hear them scream thoughout eternity. Glad I'm not them...

EDIT: Fixed spelling of God

 

[jne1611]

This is a very difficult question for a lot of Christians, not just me. There have been millions of people who have already died that never heard the gospel. But among all those people there must have been at least a few that did respond to the general revelation that God gives every man. (Romans 1:20). According to one post (I forget who) the general revelation prepares a person's heart for the gospel. My question is this....what if the messenger never gets there? Their heart is ready, but there is no messenger of the gospel. Will they spend eternity in hell? According to BPT the answer is yes. I do not know the answer, but I do not think it is that clear cut. The Bible says Jesus went and preached to the spirits in prison who formerly were disobedient (1Peter 3:19-20). I want to believe that Jesus may just do the same with those poor souls who never hear the gospel but would respond if they were presented with it. I believe God will find a way to get the gospel to those who he knows will answer His call.

I do not see that he preached to those in hell that were damned to give a second chance to them. But as to the idea of fairness in what God does, I think we must give that to Him as his priority or we will drive ourselves crazy. But as a believer in "election", I believe all of God's elect will hear and receive the gospel according to John 6:37. But in Rom. 2. Paul said: Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
So this may be a clue as to their end.
All I can say for sure is that Rom. 10 makes it pretty clear that I man has to believe the gospel to be saved.

 

[Jarthur001]

This is a very difficult question for a lot of Christians, not just me. There have been millions of people who have already died that never heard the gospel. But among all those people there must have been at least a few that did respond to the general revelation that God gives every man. (Romans 1:20). According to one post (I forget who) the general revelation prepares a person's heart for the gospel. My question is this....what if the messenger never gets there? Their heart is ready, but there is no messenger of the gospel. Will they spend eternity in hell? According to BPT the answer is yes. I do not know the answer, but I do not think it is that clear cut. The Bible says Jesus went and preached to the spirits in prison who formerly were disobedient (1Peter 3:19-20). I want to believe that Jesus may just do the same with those poor souls who never hear the gospel but would respond if they were presented with it. I believe God will find a way to get the gospel to those who he knows will answer His call.

Hello Amy,

Read this passage and think about what it says.

Isaiah 43

3For I am the LORD thy God, the Holy One of Israel, thy Saviour: I gave Egypt for thy ransom, Ethiopia and Seba for thee.

God loves His people

 

[Brother Bob]

1 Peter 3:
"18": For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

"19": By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

"20": Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

Greatest preacher of all!!

 

[PrmtvBptst1832]

And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. -Matthew 1:21.

The answer to the question really is that "clear-cut." Jesus made the once-for-all atonement for sin, and "Who shall lay anything to the charge of God's elect? [It is] God that justifieth. Who [is] he that condemneth? [It is] Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. " -Romans 8:33, 34. "For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;" -1 Timothy 2:5.

According to Strong's 3316, a mediator is "one who intervenes between two, either in order to make or restore peace and friendship, or form a compact, or for ratifying a covenant; a medium of communication, arbitrator." Roman Catholics have made the Church, Mary, and dead "saints" mediators and Protestants have made missionaries, evangelists, and "soul-winners" mediators. There is ONE mediator - Christ Jesus!

 

[bound]

And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. -Matthew 1:21.

The answer to the question really is that "clear-cut." Jesus made the once-for-all atonement for sin, and "Who shall lay anything to the charge of God's elect? [It is] God that justifieth. Who [is] he that condemneth? [It is] Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. " -Romans 8:33, 34. "For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;" -1 Timothy 2:5.

According to Strong's 3316, a mediator is "one who intervenes between two, either in order to make or restore peace and friendship, or form a compact, or for ratifying a covenant; a medium of communication, arbitrator." Roman Catholics have made the Church, Mary, and dead "saints" mediators and Protestants have made missionaries, evangelists, and "soul-winners" mediators. There is ONE mediator - Christ Jesus!

Aren't we taught that 'the Father and the Son are one'? If the Son is the Mediator between man and God, which I agree that the Bible teaches he is how are we to understand the 'oneness' of the Father and the Son?

As Baptist's what are we to say about the Trinity?

Thanks.

 

[rsr]

We've wandered down many goat paths already; the Baptist view of the Trinity (which is entirely orthodox) deserves another topic.

Thanks.