Is forgiveness required in all cases?

[Marcia]

That's a good one.

The only thing I would add is, what about unrepentent sinning/evil?

I don't think we are not to forgive - only forgive - so that would include someone who is unrepentant.

 

[Marcia]

Reference?

Yes, forgive since you have been forgiven by God.

I am forgiven by confession. Couldn't forgive as I have been forgiven imply this same method?

Reference?

Where does it tell me to forgive everything and everyone?

Matt. 6
12'And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors.
13'And do not lead us into temptation, but deliver us from evil. [For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.]'

14"For if you forgive others for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15"But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.


Matt 18
21Then Peter came and said to Him, "Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? Up to seven times?"
22Jesus said to him, "I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.

(read the parable following this)

Doesn't true forgivness imply that we forget?

From a personal point of view I have no problem with your stance. I forgive and forget very easily. Nothing on my part, that's just how God made me. I was like that even before I was saved. However I am not 100% convinced this is scriptural. I can't think of any direct instruction to do so. I can list examples of Stephen and Christ doing just this. But if we are to be like Christ and we say that means forgiving everyone of everything wouldn't that imply that God does the same and none would be lost. Even though they did not believe in Christ, repent, or ask forgiveness? I'm just kinda thinking out loud

I didn't say anything about forgetting. It's impossible to forget if you were abused, if your parent was an alcoholic, if someone betrayed you, etc. The Bible does not command us to forget but to forgive - to release them from the debt.

God's forgiveness for salvation is one thing; the command for us to forgive is to show that we have been forgiven and also to avoid a root of bitterness growing up in us from resentment.

 

[thegospelgeek]

The Lord's Prayer sayd, "Forgive us our trespasses [sins] as we forgive those who trespass [sin] against us." The responsiblity is ours to forgive. We will be forgiven by God in the way we forgive others.

It is the same with judgement. We will be judged in the same manner that we judge others.

Scary stuff.

What does "as we forgive those who trespass against us" mean?

Does that mean the nuber os time forgiven? Does it mean the attitude of forefogivness? What about the method of forgivness? How do we know exactly which is the correct answer. Whar about other passages concerning forgivness? John wrote "if we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us" Maybe that is what Jesus meant when he said "as we forgive others".

I remember in some parable that forgivness was granted when asked for. Could this be what he meant?

Someone already mentioned that Jesus forgave the paralytic when he hadn't even asked. Is that what he means?

How can we determine, without question, what exactly the phrase "forgive us as we forgive others" means?

 

[thegospelgeek]

Matt. 6
12'And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors.
13'And do not lead us into temptation, but deliver us from evil. [For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.]'

14"For if you forgive others for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15"But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.


Matt 18
21Then Peter came and said to Him, "Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? Up to seven times?"
22Jesus said to him, "I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.

(read the parable following this)



I didn't say anything about forgetting. It's impossible to forget if you were abused, if your parent was an alcoholic, if someone betrayed you, etc. The Bible does not command us to forget but to forgive - to release them from the debt.

God's forgiveness for salvation is one thing; the command for us to forgive is to show that we have been forgiven and also to avoid a root of bitterness growing up in us from resentment.

Very good.

Did you notice in the parable that the one who was forgiven asked for it. He also refused to give forgiveness when asked.

Marcia, you have convinced me with these passages; I'll come clean on this now. This was a subject I had to deal with when my parents died. They named me as executor of their will even though I am one of the youngest. Their were a lot of "difficulties" in the process. many things were said and done that should not have been. I resisted the idea of forgiving some things using the argument in my mind that no one had asked for forgivness nor had they addmitted wrong doing. As much as tries not to forgive the Holy Spiit absolutly refused to allow me to rationalize this away. Only when I had truly forgiven, regardless of everyone else's actions, could there be peace.

As for forgetting, we can not completely forget unless God intervenes. BUt when we see someone and the first thing that comes to mind is the wrong they have done us, have we forgiven them? How do we know we have forgiven and not just pushed it into the back of our mind.

Thanks marcia for pulling out some of the verses, that's what I was looking for, not just a statement that we are told to, but where.

 

[ajg1959]

Matt. 6
12'And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors.
13'And do not lead us into temptation, but deliver us from evil. [For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.]'

14"For if you forgive others for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15"But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.


Matt 18
21Then Peter came and said to Him, "Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? Up to seven times?"
22Jesus said to him, "I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.

(read the parable following this)



I didn't say anything about forgetting. It's impossible to forget if you were abused, if your parent was an alcoholic, if someone betrayed you, etc. The Bible does not command us to forget but to forgive - to release them from the debt.

God's forgiveness for salvation is one thing; the command for us to forgive is to show that we have been forgiven and also to avoid a root of bitterness growing up in us from resentment.

Marcia, is this really forgiveness? And are we, as humans truly able to forgive as God is?

For instance, if you loan me your car to drive to the grocery store, and I keep your car for 3 weeks. You can say that you forgive me for what i did, but will you ever let me use your car again? If you wont let me use your car again, then that means you still hold it against me. If you still hold it against me, then is that really forgiveness?

When God forgives He seperates our sins from us as far as the East is from the West, and He doesnt hold it against us any more, but we cannot do that, so are we even capable of true forgiveness.

People always overuse that WWJD cliche, but my question is "can we really do what Jesus would do?"

AJ

 

[Marcia]

Marcia, is this really forgiveness? And are we, as humans truly able to forgive as God is?

That's what the Bible calls forgiveness, and we are commanded to forgive. We can't forgive in our own strength, but only as we recall how we are forgiven and depend on the strength and love of God we know in Christ. I think in hard cases, we must call on the Lord to give us the love that enables us to forgive someone.

For instance, if you loan me your car to drive to the grocery store, and I keep your car for 3 weeks. You can say that you forgive me for what i did, but will you ever let me use your car again? If you wont let me use your car again, then that means you still hold it against me. If you still hold it against me, then is that really forgiveness?

Go back and read my first post on this. I wrote that forgiveness does not mean we need to trust the person. Trust must be earned. So I would forgive you but that doesn't mean I would let you drive my car again - at least not until I could trust you, if ever. Those are 2 separate things: forgiveness and trusting.

When God forgives He seperates our sins from us as far as the East is from the West, and He doesnt hold it against us any more, but we cannot do that, so are we even capable of true forgiveness.

People always overuse that WWJD cliche, but my question is "can we really do what Jesus would do?"

We can't forgive people in the way God does for salvation but we are to forgive people for their wrongs against us (not against God or others). Please keep in mind we are commanded to forgive; it's not an option.

 

[Marcia]

Very good.

Did you notice in the parable that the one who was forgiven asked for it. He also refused to give forgiveness when asked.

Marcia, you have convinced me with these passages; I'll come clean on this now. This was a subject I had to deal with when my parents died. They named me as executor of their will even though I am one of the youngest. Their were a lot of "difficulties" in the process. many things were said and done that should not have been. I resisted the idea of forgiving some things using the argument in my mind that no one had asked for forgivness nor had they addmitted wrong doing. As much as tries not to forgive the Holy Spiit absolutly refused to allow me to rationalize this away. Only when I had truly forgiven, regardless of everyone else's actions, could there be peace.

As for forgetting, we can not completely forget unless God intervenes. BUt when we see someone and the first thing that comes to mind is the wrong they have done us, have we forgiven them? How do we know we have forgiven and not just pushed it into the back of our mind.

Thanks marcia for pulling out some of the verses, that's what I was looking for, not just a statement that we are told to, but where.

I've been getting convicted on this myself since Sunday's message. It's very timely this topic came up here on the BB right afterwards when I had just been in discussion on it at church and was thinking about it.

I think also that forgiveness is a process sometimes, not an overnight thing. Sometimes you can forgive right away and that's it. Other times, it may take years, so when you see the person and think of the wrong they did you, you may feel you have not totally forgiven him/her. That's a reminder to keep on forgiving and ask for the Lord's help!

 

[Pastor David]

"What shall we say then? It is clear that forgiveness-promising another never to bring up his offense again to use it against him - - is conditioned on the offenders willingness to confess it as sin and to seek forgiveness. You are not obligated to forgive an unrepentant sinner, but you are obligated to try to bring him to repentance. All the while you must entertain a genuine hope and willingness to forgive the other and a desire to be reconciled to him or her. Because this biblical teaching runs counter to much teaching in the modern church, it is important to understand it. Such forgiveness is modeled after God’s forgiveness which is unmistakably conditioned on repentance and faith."

- excerpted from Forgiven to Forgiveness by Dr. Jay Adams

 

[thegospelgeek]

I've been getting convicted on this myself since Sunday's message. It's very timely this topic came up here on the BB right afterwards when I had just been in discussion on it at church and was thinking about it.

I think also that forgiveness is a process sometimes, not an overnight thing. Sometimes you can forgive right away and that's it. Other times, it may take years, so when you see the person and think of the wrong they did you, you may feel you have not totally forgiven him/her. That's a reminder to keep on forgiving and ask for the Lord's help!

Coincidence???

Yes, sometimes it is a process. At least it was for me. God wired me in such a way that it is easy for me to forgive someone who did something to me or against me. I don't know why he made me like that. However, he taught me not to be proud about it, because I discovered that it wasn't so easy when someone did something to my wife. It took time and prayer to forgive, but by his grace it came to pass. Now when we are together the hurt is the farthest thing from my mind. I only think of it when something like this discussion comes up. I think that qualifies as forgiving and forgetting. I can remember it but only when i choose to and only in the right way.

 

[Steven2006]

Matt. 6
12'And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors.
13'And do not lead us into temptation, but deliver us from evil. [For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.]'

14"For if you forgive others for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15"But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.


Matt 18
21Then Peter came and said to Him, "Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? Up to seven times?"
22Jesus said to him, "I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.

These were the exact same verses that came to my mind when I read the OP. We are instructed to forgive, nowhere are we instructed to hold that forgiveness until someone repents to us. Matter of fact in verse twelve the word debtors means exactly that. "an offender, a trespasser, one who is a debtor or obliged to either to reparation or punishment."

 

[BigBossman]

I believe we are supposed to forgive other when they wrong us. There are times when I could find it hard to do that. If someone murdered one of my family members, I'd have a very hard time forgiving.

While I believe in forgiving, I also believe that one must take responsibility for their actions. I probably could bring myself to forgive someone for murdering a family member, but that doesn't mean that they shouldn't be executed or locked away until the day they die.

 

[Steven2006]

Mar 11:25 "Whenever you stand praying, forgive, if you have anything against anyone, so that your Father who is in heaven will also forgive you your transgressions. (emphasis mine)

This is another verse that makes it crystal clear we are to forgive.

 

[Steven2006]

While I believe in forgiving, I also believe that one must take responsibility for their actions. .

I agree forgivness doesn't mean doing away holding people responsible.

 

[canadyjd]

"What shall we say then? It is clear that forgiveness-promising another never to bring up his offense again to use it against him - - is conditioned on the offenders willingness to confess it as sin and to seek forgiveness. You are not obligated to forgive an unrepentant sinner, but you are obligated to try to bring him to repentance. All the while you must entertain a genuine hope and willingness to forgive the other and a desire to be reconciled to him or her. Because this biblical teaching runs counter to much teaching in the modern church, it is important to understand it. Such forgiveness is modeled after God’s forgiveness which is unmistakably conditioned on repentance and faith."

- excerpted from Forgiven to Forgiveness by Dr. Jay Adams

You quote a man giving an opinion that is contrary to scripture.

Marcia and others have quoted scripture which is clearly contrary to what you are saying and what you have quoted.

Why not engage the text of scripture in an attempt to show why they are wrong?

peace to youraying:

 

[Steven2006]

Here are a few more applicable scriptures.


Luk 6:37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:


Col 3:13 Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also [do] ye.


I think this next verse really gives us an example of this at work.


2Ti 4:16 At my first answer no man stood with me, but all [men] forsook me: [I pray God] that it may not be laid to their charge.

 

[DrRandyGrace]

We must forgive. We are not required to like or approve or befriend, only forgive.

 

[Jim1999]

forgiveness is something like anger. We are often angry with someone who doesn't even know we are angry. The only one suffering is ourselves. It is amazing how much forgiveness in our own minds lifts our spirit out of the mires of despair.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[canadyjd]

The only one suffering is ourselves. It is amazing how much forgiveness in our own minds lifts our spirit out of the mires of despair.

Wise words:thumbs:

peace to youraying:

 

[Jim1999]

Not one person through history has experienced a sense of completeness through watching the execution of one who killed their loved one....not one. They may experience some form of vindication or even justice, but peace is yet to come. This peace comes instantly when the victim faces the perpetrator and says, "I forgive you".

So it is in every aspect of life.

There was an Anglican minister in Alberta a few years ago, whose son was killed in a local high school. The Anglican man met the press and announced his family's forgiveness of the lad who did the shooting. He went on to meet the lad in jail and counselled with him. Now isn't that more productive than harbouring ill feelings for the rest of one's life?

Cheers,

Jim

 

[CoJoJax]

I don't know if visiting the criminal in jail and "talking it over" with him/her is always the way to go.

I remember viewing a piece on SportsCenter on an athlete named Warrick Dunn - an NFL runningback. His mother was shot and killed by a man and he finally decided he was going to visit the man in prison and forgive him face-to-face. Despite all kinds of evidence obviously stating that this man was the killer, he simply denied everything to Dunn's face. The way Dunn described the experience on T.V., I almost got the impression that it was a big waste of time.

I'm OK forgiving somebody for something horrible they may have done to me or a family member and I may write a letter or something of that nature stating my forgiveness. But I've heard too many stories of the mindset of these people and the simple fact that they either A) don't care or B) deny everything, in which case, probably makes you feel worse than when you came in to see them. I don't know ..

I'd almost rather pray and express my forgiveness towards the individual to God .. if that makes any sense..