Is free will an illusion?

[Brother Bob]

Sorry JJ;
Really am.

Hebrews, chapter 8
"11": And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

The Book of Job, chapter 32
"8": But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding.

 

[J. Jump]

Brother Bob I love how you just cherry pick a verse or two and then say it is so.

I can cherry pick a verse and say it's okay to own slaves and I can cherry pick a verse to say it's okay to do a lot of things. Just because you pick a couple of verses out of the Bible doesn't make what you say true.

Let's just look at the Hebrews verse that you cherry picked. And let's look at the entire context of the verse:

For finding fault with them, He says, "BEHOLD, DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL EFFECT A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH; NOT LIKE THE COVENANT WHICH I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS ON THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT; FOR THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT, AND I DID NOT CARE FOR THEM, SAYS THE LORD. "FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I [SIZE=-1]F72[/SIZE] WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR MINDS, AND I WILL WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS. AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE. "AND THEY SHALL NOT TEACH EVERYONE HIS FELLOW CITIZEN, AND EVERYONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, `KNOW THE LORD,' FOR ALL WILL KNOW ME, FROM THE LEAST TO THE GREATEST OF THEM.

Sorry Brother Bob, but it looks like you cherry picked a verse that doesn't have anything to do with Christians, but a covenant that is going to be made with Israel in the future.

See that's what happens when you cherry pick verses.

Again bottom line is you are teaching a salvation that is not in agreement with the plain teaching of Scripture. You have been shown time and time again how you are incorrect, but you choose to follow man instead of the Word. It breaks my heart, but that is your choice.

 

[Brother Bob]

Who do you think the Lord came to first JJ;
You just don't know what you are saying. He came to His own and His own received Him not but as many as did He gave them power to become the sons of God. Do you know who His own is? Israel my friend, and then the middle wall was broken down that we might become a jew inwardly.
Tell you what JJ; You think you are talking to some young Christian when I have been an ordained minister for 34 years. I didn't just start studing today. Now go do your home work and maybe then we can have a meaningful discussion. Also, I am almost 67 years old and no doubt you are a young pup to that.
I tried to be nice but you won't let me so we continue on the way we were.

Who do you think the first Christians were?

 

[J. Jump]

Oh Brother Bob if you could actually see what you are saying. Age has nothing to do with anything. Paul told Timothy exactly that.

Now onto what you have said.

Who do you think the Lord came to first JJ

It wasn't who He came to first, it was the only people He was sent for. Matthew 15:24 Jesus says I was sent ONLY to the lost sheep of the House of Israel.

But you equate Jesus coming to Israel preaching the message of eternal salvation, but that wasn't the message being preached. The message that was being preached was the message of the kingdom. Repent for the kingdom of the heavens is at hand. Repent for the kingdom of the heavens has drawn near.

The Jews that believed on Jesus were not the first Christians. You are terribly mistaken there.

And the verse you cherry picked out of Hebrews is not intended for Christians it is intended for the nation of Israel. Christians are not a part of the nation of Israel. If your cherry picked verse of Scripture was true then there would be no need of pastor and teachers. If people did not have to be taught about the Lord then you would not have been needed as an ordained pastor for one second.

But becuase that is not true of Christians and Christians must be taught about the Lord then we have need of pastors/teachers.

that we might become a jew inwardly.

Absolutely incorrect. When a person is saved they do not become a Jew inwardly or outwardly. When a person becomes saved they become a new creation in Christ, which is neither Jew nor Gentile.

You think you are talking to some young Christian when I have been an ordained minister for 34 years.

That means absolutely nothing Brother Bob. Christ in talking with Nicodemus, who had studied as long if not longer than you have, said that Nicodemus should have known of the things He was talking about. He was a spiritual leader of that nation and yet he didn't have a clue what was being talked about.

Being an ordained minister of 34 years guarantees you nothing. Let me encourage you to read the first three chapters of I Corinthians.

Who do you think the first Christians were?

That's a very difficult question to answer, because the Bible doesn't tell us who the first Christians were. I guess you could say Paul and Barnabas and their followers in Antioch, becuase that is the first mention of the term Christian

As to who the first people where to be created a new man in Christ we are not given the answer to that.

 

[BobRyan]

It's amazing how so many of you take such a simple message and make it into such a confusing, twisting, turning, hilly, mountainous journey.

The simple message of grace is that if anyone will believe in the substitutionary death of Jesus and His shed blood they are saved.

That's it. Look I gave the message of eternal salvation in less than 25 words.

But if you ask some of you what must I do to be saved then you get this big ole laundry list of stuff.

You have to believe. John 3:16
You have to continue to believe. Romans 11
You have to repent. Acts 2
You have to ask forgiveness. 1John 1:9
You have to do good works. Matt 7, Rom 2
You have to obey the 10 commandments. John 14:15
You have to walk in the spirit. Romans 8
You have to forgive others. Matt 18

And I'm sure that I have left out several others. See how complicated that message is.

I have to admit that is "A lot of Bible to ignore" when you don't like what it says!

My question is this - your "believe and rebel" model was already described in James 2 showing that the perfect example of this is demons.

Why do you never quote that?

Why do you simply reference the Bible texts you seek to deny and try to spin them away from the Gospel? (THE ONE Gospel Gal 1:6-11)

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

JJ
Do you really at the end of your services or when you witness to folks about salvation do you really go into all that.

Clearly we DO present those scriptures instead of "hiding them".

We DO tell them of the ONE Gospel where "IF anyone is IN CHRIST he is a NEW creation and old things are passed away" 2 Cor 5.

WE DO tell them of the ONE Gospel where "IF by the Spirit you ARE puting to death the deeds of the flesh THEN are you the children of God" Rom 8.

We DO Tell them about the ONE Gospel where we find the "NEW Covenant" with the Law of God written on the heart Heb 8.

We DO tell them about the ONE Gospel where "NOT everyone who SAYS Lord Lord enters heaven" Matt 7. - But WIDE is the road that leads to destruction! (Notice that opposite of entering heaven is not MORE HEAVEN!)

We DO tell them that under the ONE Gospel "it is not the HEARERS who are JUST before God but the DOERS of the Law are JUSTIFIED" Romans 2:11-13.

We DO tell them that under the ONE Gospel "We will ALL be judged - we will ALL stand before the judgment seat of Christ to give an account for deeds whether good or evil" 2Cor 5.

We DO tell them of the ONE Gospel "preached to ALL the World... REPENT for the hour of HIS judgment has come" Rev 14.

(The list is endless)

Do you tell someone they have to believe. Then they have to continue to believe until they die.

WE DO tell them of the ONE Gospel and the warning PAUL gives "FEAR for IF he did not spare them NEITHER will He spare you" Romans 11 showing that the FAILING case of the unbelieving Jews IS NOT "More HEAVEN" as you have supposed!

And they have to be obedient. Then do you explain all the commandments to them all at one time so that they know what they will have to be obedient to from that day forward.

We DO Show them the failing case of those "who BELIEVE but still live in open rebellion against God's Word" they are called "demons" in James 2.

In other words "we stick with the BIBLE's Gospel" instead of "making one up" as you have done here.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Brother Bob]

As to who the first people where to be created a new man in Christ we are not given the answer to that.

I guess the day of Pentecost means nothing to you?

It wasn't who He came to first, it was the only people He was sent for. Matthew 15:24 Jesus says I was sent ONLY to the lost sheep of the House of Israel.

Me thinks you need some age on you, how many covenants do you think He made. Are you saying that Jesus came preaching 2 different doctrines. The first Christians were Jew too.
"28": Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian.
If you don’t think Paul was a Jew I just don’t know what to say to you.

Main Entry: 1Chris·tian
Pronunciation: 'kris-ch&n, 'krish-
Function: noun
Etymology: Latin christianus, adjective & n., from Greek christianos, from Christos
1 a : one who professes belief in the teachings of Jesus Christ

So you don’t think years of study makes a difference, just goes to show you how much you lack in learning.

Jew inwardly; All I know is we have become one people under the same covenant, which is what this discussion started over.

Did you MaMa call you cherry picker or what. Is that your way when you have no explaination you just say "cherry picker"? Don't you know any other words?

 

[BobRyan]

Let's just look at the Hebrews verse that you cherry picked. And let's look at the entire context of the verse:

For finding fault with them, He says, "BEHOLD, DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL EFFECT A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH; NOT LIKE THE COVENANT WHICH I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS ON THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT; FOR THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT, AND I DID NOT CARE FOR THEM, SAYS THE LORD. "FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I [SIZE=-1]F72[/SIZE] WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR MINDS, AND I WILL WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS. AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE. "AND THEY SHALL NOT TEACH EVERYONE HIS FELLOW CITIZEN, AND EVERYONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, `KNOW THE LORD,' FOR ALL WILL KNOW ME, FROM THE LEAST TO THE GREATEST OF THEM.

Sorry Brother Bob, but it looks like you cherry picked a verse that doesn't have anything to do with Christians, but a covenant that is going to be made with Israel in the future.

See that's what happens when you cherry pick verses.

JJ - here is a case where you have clearly lifted Hebrews 8 out of context "entirely" and bent it to your own means. Yet this text is "pure devastation" to your "believe and rebel against God" Gospel!

Heb 8 shows that UNDER THE ONE GOSPEL Christ (not man) is our High Priest.

Heb 8 shows that UNDER THE ONE GOSPEL Christ ministers in heaven FOR US -- not in the earthly tent that pointed to this great Gospel event.

Heb 8 shows that UNDER THE ONE GOSPEL the model of atonement INCLUDES the work of Christ FOR US as our High Priest mediating the New COVENANT promise of the ONE Gospel.

Heb 8 shows that this ONE GOSPEL includes the Heb 8 promise of
1. Forgiveness of Sin
2. God as OUR God and also the saints as God's People.
3. The Holy Spirit circumcised the heart and WRITES the Law of God on it!

For as Romans 2 points out that under the ONE Gospel - ISRAEL is in fact comprised of those who are "circumcised in HEART" by the Holy Spirit not the outward national thing that some have supposed.

Jeremiah AND HEb 8 refer to the SAME Gospel promise THE same promise of forgiveness the SAMe promise of Christ as our High Priest the SAME promise of the work of the Holy Spirit writing the Law of God "on TABLETS of the Human Heart" 2Cor 3.

Your rejection of scripture to support the errors you have suggested appears to be "without limit".

I find that facinating!

In Christ,

Bob

 

[J. Jump]

your "believe and rebel" model

Brother Bob that just shows your cluelessness of what is being discussed. I don't have a believe and rebel model. No one has ever promoted believing and then teaching a person to continue to live that way. That is the falsity that you and people that believe like you make up about us.

I have never said rebellion is okay and that it is what should be done, and neither has anyone else. Why do you keep slandering us with those false accusations?

Once a person believes that are to live a life that is separated from the world and holy just as God is holy and all of those things that go along with the Christian walk. But just because we are supposed to do something doesn't mean we will do it.

Again it is clearly taught in Scripture. Once again why do you not address Ephesians 2:10 - The Greek verb should (or would in some translations) is a subjunctive verb, which means it may or may not happen. It is supposed to happen, but just because it is supposed to happen doesn't mean it will happen.

You clearly want to hide/dodge/dance/cherry pick Scripture.

Clearly we DO present those scriptures instead of "hiding them".

I seriously have my doubts that you present these Scriptures and then explain to these people what it means. You would have to spend hours with someone. You may gloss over these Scriptures, but you don't teach this to these people at the moment of Salvation I am sure.

And I have never hidden these Scriptures, I just choose to let the Bible say what the Bible says instead of twisting them to fit a man-made theology.

James 2

Once again you as many others take the book of James and twist it to fit your own teachings and beliefs. As has been explained to you on a number of occasions James is not dealing with eternal salvation. It can't be, becuase it is including works, and Ephesians 2:8-9 clearly says that eternal salvation has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with man's works. Why is that so difficult for you to understand. Why do you insist on making a mockery of God's Word. It says NO WORKS. Guess what Brother Bob. That's means NO WORKS.

 

[Brother Bob]

JJ;
I am going to save some time here and accept Bob's answer. :laugh:


Church time, be back later. I wish JJ could be there and watch him squirm.:applause: :applause: :applause:


Hey Bob Ryan, we could pick cherries together. lol

JJ;
We show you where someone had works and Jesus accepted it but you won't!!!

 

[BobRyan]

Brother Bob that just shows your cluelessness of what is being discussed. I don't have a believe and rebel model. No one has ever promoted believing and then teaching a person to continue to live that way. That is the falsity that you and people that believe like you make up about us.

I have never said rebellion is okay and that it is what should be done, and neither has anyone else. Why do you keep slandering us with those false accusations?

Once a person believes that are to live a life that is separated from the world and holy just as God is holy and all of those things that go along with the Christian walk. But just because we are supposed to do something doesn't mean we will do it

OK so that would be "believe and rebel" I already got that part. Your argument is "believe and obey is salvation - heaven. Believe and rebel is more heaven".

I am simply pointing out that James 2 already defined the "believe and rebel option" you list above.

What is so hard to understand about that?

BTW when you speak of "believe and obey" above did you mean "without reading the texts that mean old Bob would let you read"??

Again it is clearly taught in Scripture. Once again why do you not address Ephesians 2:10 - The Greek verb should (or would in some translations) is a subjunctive verb, which means it may or may not happen. It is supposed to happen, but just because it is supposed to happen doesn't mean it will happen.

You clearly want to hide/dodge/dance/cherry pick Scripture.

You have not only cherry picked and ignored the texts given these recent lists but you are ALSO cherry picking Eph 2!! Is there "no limit??"

Eph 2

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

Eph 2 DOES NOT SAY "saved by grace through faith so pay no attention to the good works that God has prepared for those who are saved since they have nothing to do with salvation and you can ignore what Matt 7 and Romans 2 say to the contrary".

you "selectively" reference vs 10 while only quoting vs 8!!

How "transparent".

Why not ADDRESS vs 10 if you are going to keep referencing it??

I seriously have my doubts that you present these Scriptures and then explain to these people what it means.

On the contrary I can not only SAY Eph 2:10 I also get to QUOTE IT as shown above - while you seek to QUOTE only vs 8.

Funny that you should be trying to emphasize this failing in your own argument!

Is there "no limit" with what you must gloss over in scripture?

 

[J. Jump]

I am going to save some time here and accept Bob's answer.

Well you can go ahead and accept error if you like. That is on you.

 

[BobRyan]

As usual JJ is not addressing any of the points raised in Heb 8 or any of the points from Romans 2 or from the LISTS given that so devastate that "believe and rebel" option that is supposed to get you "more heaven" as compared to "believe and submit to God".

While I am thankful that JJ appears to accept the "believe and submit to God option" I am STILL WAITING for JJ to show how the "believe and rebell option" that the DEMONS use in James 2 is suppose to result in "more heaven".

Time to pony up JJ - and answer some of the hard questions.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[J. Jump]

OK so that would be "believe and rebel" I already got that part. Your argument is "believe and obey is salvation - heaven. Believe and rebel is more heaven".

Again you spew false allegations saying things that I never said nor did I type. Please show me where I typed believe and rebel and you get more heaven.

I hope and pray people who are reading these threads can read through your nonsense and false accusations. No one including myself has ever said that people that believe and rebel get more heaven.

What is so hard to understand about that?

Becuase you are trying to equate the book of James with a subject that it doesn't address. James is not talking about eternal salvation, becuase it is a book written to saved believers.

What is so hard to understand about that. What is so hard with understanding that NO WORKS means exactly that NO WORKS.

cherry picking Epheisans 2

I have not cherry picked anything. Ephesians 2:8-9 are the clearest, most plain Scripture dealing with eternal salvation. You can go to Acts 16:30-31 as well, where the only direct question and direct answer regarding eternal salvation is given in the Bible.

Both of these texts tell us that a person is saved by grace through faith and works play NO PART in the salvation.

Therefore when one comes to a text that includes faith and works we can know right off the bat that it is not dealing with eternal salvation becuase Ephesians 2:8-9 and Acts 16:30-31 clearly tell us that works PLAY NO PART in our salvation. NO WORKS means NO WORKS despite what you want to believe. It can't be any more plain that that. NO WORKS. Say it with me NO WORKS.

I've explained to you already about Ephesians 2:10. We are saved so that we will do good works, but that is not a guarantee. The subjunctive verb used in that verse clearly tells us this. They SHOULD be done. But what SHOULD be done and what GETS DONE is not always the same. That is a really simple concept to understand.

Is there "no limit" with what you must gloss over in scripture?

That's an absolutely hilarious statement coming from you who just totally ignores NO WORKS. None Bob. Not one single one. NO WORKS.

 

[J. Jump]

the "believe and rebell option" that the DEMONS use in James 2 is suppose to result in "more heaven".

Time to pony up JJ - and answer some of the hard questions.

Bob try asking a hard question first Salvation is not offered to the demons so it doesn't matter what they believe. Salvation is only offered to mankind and it only matters what man believes.

Again please show me where I or anyone else said rebellion leads to more heaven.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

JJ: Ephesians 2:8-9 clearly says that eternal salvation has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with man's works.

HP: Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Works can be thought of in two distinct ways. They can be thought of as ‘that for the sake of’ and ‘not without which.’ We are not saved for the sake of our works, but in another sense we will not be saved apart from our works. I have used the illustration before of a man in prison. It goes something like this.
A man goes to prison for life, being justly condemned and sentenced by a judge for a specific crime. Can such an individual ‘merit’ a pardon by the performance of good works while in prison? Can such a criminal perform good works to such a degree that the governor is forced to grant this man a pardon based merely on the ‘merit’ of the performance of such good works? Absolutely not. Just the same can the governor, if he so pleases, pardon such a criminal? Of course he can. Still, there is something the criminal MUST do, there is an attitude that MUST be reflected by the criminal to receive a pardon IF the governor is indeed fair and just, and attitudes are tied inseparably to intents of the heart, this very initial intent being none other than a ‘work’ in one sense of the word. The governor MUST witness from the criminal a repentant attitude and a change of heart towards his former criminal behavior if the governor is even to consider such a pardon for the criminal.

What kind of governor would pardon a criminal from prison who had not exhibited true remorse for his crimes? Would not the governor have to be satisfied in his or her mind that IF they pardoned such a criminal that they would not return to commit the same crime or one of like heinous behavior upon society again and that such a criminal possessed and exhibited a true change of heart and attitude towards their former behavior? There are indeed certain conditions that the criminal must meet, works that such a one must of necessity do in order to have the opportunity for a pardon if such an opportunity is offered. These works on the part of the prisoner are in no way meritorious in nature, and in no way force the governor to grant such a one a pardon on their account. Just the same, there are definite conditions or works one must do in order for the governor to consider the pardon. These works are thought of in the sense of ‘not without which,’ not ‘that for the sake of.’ It can properly be stated that one is not pardoned due to any works (in one sense of the word ‘works’ in the sense of ‘that for the sake of’) of the prisoner, but just the same it can be said ‘without works’ (in another sense of the word,) no man will be saved.

The passage in Ephesians you mention cannot be shown to be at antipodes with the passages in James, but rather must be harmonized. IN A SENSE we are not saved by works, for we do not ‘merit’ salvation by anything we do, but in another sense, there are works we must do, thought of in the sense of NOT WITHOUT WHICH that are clear conditions of salvation. There is not the least evidence that James was not addressing eternal salvation. Both James and Paul are addressing salvation, but are doing so in different senses. Works, IN A SENSE, absolutely have something to do with salvation. Faith and repentance are acts of the will for starters, 'without which' (yet not 'for the sake of') no man shall see the Lord.

 

[BobRyan]

Hey! I notice that you stopped referencing Eph 2:10 - why not go ahead and deal with that verse - since you claim I am reluctant to do it.

 

[BobRyan]

Bob try asking a hard question first Salvation is not offered to the demons so it doesn't matter what they believe. Salvation is only offered to mankind and it only matters what man believes.

Again please show me where I or anyone else said rebellion leads to more heaven.

Here again "your cherry picking" is not serving you.

It is JAMES (not mean ol' Bob) that makes this connection to DEMONS and PEOPLE who CLAIM to believe but in fact live in rebellion.

Your efforts to say "this text should not apply" simply "go into the stack" of texts your view "needs" to ignore, gloss over and "blame on bob".

How "surprising".

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Brother Bob]

Eph 2:10
10: For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them

Does everyone have a problem with quoting this Scripture?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

I don't Brother Bob. Faith without works is d e a d being alone.