Is free will an illusion?

[BobRyan]

Quote:
Eph 2
Quote:
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.


This text shows the perfect releationship between works, faith and salvation. It shows that those who enter into salvation -- ENGAGE in those perfect works God has designed/created that they should in fact walk in!

That is why Christ can say "NOT everyone who SAYS Lord Lord will ENTER the kingdom of heaven but they who DO the will of My Father".

it is the FRUIT of that changed life experience - that new birth that comes in the SAVED experience according to the ONE Gospel!

 

[J. Jump]

I dealt with Ephesians 2:10 and you all just don't like what it says.

10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

Once again let me highlight this so that maybe this time you will actually read the post instead continuing to spout your non-Biblical ramblings.

So that we WOULD walk in them. Other translations have so that we SHOULD walk in them. Regardless of which you choose to use would/should the Greek verb is peripateo. This verb is in the subjunctive mood which means that which is being spoken of "good works" may are may not be done. There is no indication, absolutely no indication that these works are a guarantee in a Christian's life. That is something that you all are making up and teaching as a doctrine of man, not the doctrine of the Bible.

Why is that so difficult to grasp?

This text shows the perfect releationship between works

That is the absolute truth, but why you three (and a great many in Christendom) choose to ignore this I don't know. Let's see again what it says.

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Wow is says NO WORKS are involved in salvation. Isn't that amazing.

Let's again take a look at your false teaching. You say that one must work to keep their salvation or prove their salvation. Guess what that means that you can boast that you are doing what it takes to keep your salvation or to prove your salvation. Guess what that violates the last part of verse nine. Your works, my works, Jim Bob's works, Joe Boo's works, it doesn't matter, no one's works are invovled except Jesus Christ, becuase that way NNE has a right to boast because they didn't have anything to do with their salvation.

If your works are involved in any aspect of salvation then it is not by grace you are saved, but by wage/reward. If you do something to get something that is not grace that is the wage/reward system. Grace means you get something that you do not deserve nor did you do anything for.

It really is that simple. Let's not mud up God's crystal clear picture.

 

[BobRyan]

Eph 2
Quote:
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.


This text shows the perfect releationship between works, faith and salvation. JJ said we should consider eisegeting the text so that it says "good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we May or MAY NOT walk in them".

What an entertaining way to eisegete the text JJ!

As it is this text shows us that those who enter into salvation -- ENGAGE in those perfect works God has designed/created that they should in fact walk in!

That is why Christ can say "NOT everyone who SAYS Lord Lord will ENTER the kingdom of heaven but they who DO the will of My Father".

it is the FRUIT of that changed life experience - that new birth that comes in the SAVED experience according to the ONE Gospel!

 

[J. Jump]

BobRyan if you would do more studying of what is invovled instead of accepting and teaching man-made traditions you might have a better understanding.

I didn't write the text. I'm just telling you what the text is and you can not deny that the verb is subjunctive. And you can not deny that there is a difference between verb moods.

If the Holy Spirit wanted the Bible student to understand that this was an absolute guarantee that Christians are guaranteed to do good works then He could have used the indicitive mood.

But He didn't guide Paul to pen an indicitive verb, but rather a subjunctive verb. I wonder why that is? Because the rest of the Bible teaches that works are not a guarantee, and so the Bible completely compliments itself.

By the way there two indicitive verbs used in Ephesians 2:10, which means it is an absolute guarantee.

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

It is guaranteed that a Christian is God's workmanship created in Christ Jesus unto good works. And it is guaranteed that these good works were God ordained, but it is not a guarantee that we will do them as the subjunctive verb should/would indicates.

You can call it whatever you want to call it, but that is the plain and simple truth as to what the verse says.

 

[Brother Bob]

Walk in what?

 

[BobRyan]

JJ said
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

It is guaranteed that a Christian is God's workmanship created in Christ Jesus unto good works. And it is guaranteed that these good works were God ordained, but it is not a guarantee that we will do them

#1. you appear to be willing to admit to free will -- even for the saved Christian. If so - I applaud that step forward in your view.

#2. You appear to say that though we are saved and for that reason we are supposed to be walking in the good works God has ORDAINED that we should walk in - our free will might simply refuse God and choose rebellion instead. (the James 2 scenario that JAMES SAID is the same as the demons have taken).

If you are really embracing that much of the text - then I would agree with you. But if you are simply claiming more self-conflicted self-contradictory ground then I would distance myself from your position.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[FollowMeHome]

Yes. In a college philosophy class, I learned that we have no free will. Anything we do is the result of something in our environment, our life's experience, maybe something biological within us, etc.

This makes more sense to me than the teaching I've found in Christianity. On the surface we have free will to choose to do something or not, but the reasoning behind our decision is much deeper and, in my opinion, not of our free will.

For example, I didn't freely choose to accept Jesus Christ as my savior. Either by my life's experiences, my parent's influence or God's will, I accepted Jesus Christ as my savior.

 

[gekko]

"free will carried many a soul to hell, but never a soul to heaven"

 

[BobRyan]

Yes. In a college philosophy class, I learned that we have no free will. Anything we do is the result of something in our environment, our life's experience, maybe something biological within us, etc.

This makes more sense to me than the teaching I've found in Christianity. On the surface we have free will to choose to do something or not, but the reasoning behind our decision is much deeper and, in my opinion, not of our free will.

For example, I didn't freely choose to accept Jesus Christ as my savior. Either by my life's experiences, my parent's influence or God's will, I accepted Jesus Christ as my savior.

I admit that the sinful desire to blame everything we do on environment, chemistry or helpless sinful nature - runs pretty deep in mankind.

But God "DRAWS ALL MANKIND" John 12:32 and God "CONVICTS the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" John 16. I am pretty sure that man made philosophy classes do not take that supernatural element into account. Apparently Calvinists don't either.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Brother Bob]

"free will carried many a soul to hell, but never a soul to heaven"

So, we have a choice whether we choose hell or not, its just that we can't choose Heaven? Does that make a lot of sense, what if I don't chose to go to hell?

 

[gekko]

do you not understand the nature of the quote brotherbob.
listen.

"free will carried many a soul to hell, but never a soul to heaven"
what kind of free will. ungodly freewill.
the Father draws us to the Son - the Son draws us to the Father.
our choice is to chose between that and the opposite.
the Father draws us - we make the choice to listen or not to listen.

knowing our selfish nature - we would not freely choose the Father in the first place.

freewill that includes the lust of the eyes, lust of the flesh and the pride of life. that is freewill that will condemn you furthermore.

we do have a choice. and it is ultimately us making that choice. but we do not influence our lives to beable to provide the answer to that choice.

is freewill and freechoice different... no?

 

[J. Jump]

#1. you appear to be willing to admit to free will -- even for the saved Christian. If so - I applaud that step forward in your view.

How can that be a step forward. I have never said that mankind doesn't have a free will in salvation. All men can either receive the free gift or they can reject it.

#2. You appear to say that though we are saved and for that reason we are supposed to be walking in the good works God has ORDAINED that we should walk in - our free will might simply refuse God and choose rebellion instead. (the James 2 scenario that JAMES SAID is the same as the demons have taken).

That's not what I say. That's what the Bible says. We are saved so that we will do the works that God has set for us to do. But yes man's will is still free and he must choose every day whether he will walk in the flesh or whether he will die to self and walk in the Spirit.

If we are walking in the flesh then we are not doing the works God has set out for us, while if we are walking in the Spirit God will be doing those works in us.

It seems to me that you say man has free will until he receives the gift and then he can no longer choose anything he just automatically walks in the Spirit, but that just doesn't give with Scripture.

 

[Brother Bob]

do you not understand the nature of the quote brotherbob.
listen.

"free will carried many a soul to hell, but never a soul to heaven"
what kind of free will. ungodly freewill.
the Father draws us to the Son - the Son draws us to the Father.
our choice is to chose between that and the opposite.
the Father draws us - we make the choice to listen or not to listen.

I think I understood it perfectly. You are saying we choose to go to hell but that God gave us a choice not to but we couldn't help it because of our sinful nature we ignornant people chose hell. Yea, I think I understood it and think it is terrible.

 

[gekko]

well... when you weren't a christian - did you have desires to do anything Godly?

didn't think so. its our sinful nature. we do not choose God because we are wicked - but when we understand the law and gospel. then we have a choice.

i believe God gave us free-choice. not freewill.

freewill is apart from Godswill. we will have God's will when we are true christians.
freewill is ungodly. freechoice is neutral. God's will is Godly.

 

[Brother Bob]

gekko;
You are wrong about when I was not a Christian. I was a drunk, I drove automobiles as fast as the would run and say to my self, If I role this car over I will call upon God before I hit the ground. It was foolish but I did think about God. I always said "before I die, I will turn to the Lord". I have heard countless of people say the same thing. So oh man, who are you to judge another man's servant? If my sinful nature would not let me think about God how come I did? Why did I know if I did die in that condition, hell would be my home. Where did I get all those feelings? Can you honestly say you never thought about serving God before you did?

 

[gekko]

you did not hear what i said.

i did not say that you didnt think about God. or your destination.
i said "did you have desires to do anything Godly?"

obviously not if you were a drunk - drivin fast and furiously.
sure you thought about God - sure the Holy Spirit was urging you...
but i asked if you had any desire (before you came to Christ) to do anything Godly.

for example - i did not have any desire to spread the gospel before i came to Christ. i had no desire to start a bus ministry. i had no desire to live Holy as he is holy. i did not have the same mindset as God.... that was before i came to Christ.

so i am not judging you in any way. i simply asked if you had any desire to do Godly things.
i did not ask if you ever thought about God.

 

[Brother Bob]

No, You are right that my desire at that time was to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season. I don't know what this has to do with it but I did desire to turn away from sin before I die, does that count for anything?raying:

 

[UnchartedSpirit]

The summary

no free will

nonexistance

I feel the two terms above are impossible to concieve of. If you can question what you are even doing, then you have free will. Have you even waken up from a dreamless sleep and thought about if you had gone that way forever? Can you have such an anti-expirence?

However here's where Agnostics and Believers keep battling over. Agnostics think believing in God takes away your free will-that is- the freedom to do evil. Yet they fully embrace nonexistance, because: 'how can nonexistance not exist?' Yet Belivers claim neither 'no free will' nor 'nonexistance' are present in God's domain.

But lets still play with the concepts: If we had to argue with an agnostic this way, how would we make no free will more appealing than nothing?

 

[FollowMeHome]

I admit that the sinful desire to blame everything we do on environment, chemistry or helpless sinful nature - runs pretty deep in mankind.

But God "DRAWS ALL MANKIND" John 12:32 and God "CONVICTS the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" John 16. I am pretty sure that man made philosophy classes do not take that supernatural element into account. Apparently Calvinists don't either.

in Christ,

Bob

Please explain you comment about Calvinists. What does that have to do with my post?

 

[BobRyan]

Quote:
Originally Posted by FollowMeHome
Yes. In a college philosophy class, I learned that we have no free will. Anything we do is the result of something in our environment, our life's experience, maybe something biological within us, etc.

This makes more sense to me than the teaching I've found in Christianity. On the surface we have free will to choose to do something or not, but the reasoning behind our decision is much deeper and, in my opinion, not of our free will.

For example, I didn't freely choose to accept Jesus Christ as my savior. Either by my life's experiences, my parent's influence or God's will, I accepted Jesus Christ as my savior.

BobRyan
I admit that the sinful desire to blame everything we do on environment, chemistry or helpless sinful nature - runs pretty deep in mankind.

But God "DRAWS ALL MANKIND" John 12:32 and God "CONVICTS the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" John 16. I am pretty sure that man made philosophy classes do not take that supernatural element into account. Apparently Calvinists don't either.

Calvinists take the doctrine of "total depravity" saying that we are all driven by sinful desires, chemistry etc to do what we do so that in fact we are only doing "what something makes us do". Either we are "made faulty" and so we have faults or we are MADE to follow God (elect, irresistable grace) so we follow God.

God counters with "FREE WILL" in the Bible that is ENABLED by the supernatural drawing of God. John 12:32 "I will DRAW ALL MANKIND unto Me". If one ignores the work of God - then maybe it could all be summed up in "chemistry"