Is frequent the theatre Sin?

[IfbReformer]

Originally posted by Aaron:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by IfbReformer:
It is actually amazing to me to see people(like one I know in particular) who have been saved only a couple years, yet they see principles in the scriptures that take other men years to see. It really is in the gift of understanding, and not so much in the years. Some people go their whole lives and never understand what they read.

Others go their whole lives, believing that all those who do not come to same applications of the scriptures as they do are novices in the scriptures.

I merely repeated what the Scriptures say. Strong meat is for those who are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

Oh, wait. IFB has a personal experience which refutes this verse. We should trust him more.

Do you have a personal experience that refutes 1 Tim. 3:6 too? </font>[/QUOTE]The only "personal experiances" I have that refute your faulty application of Tim 3:6 are these:

1 Timothy 4:12

12Don't let anyone look down on you because you are young, but set an example for the believers in speech, in life, in love, in faith and in purity.

What about Josiah and David - these men were very young in physical years, but spiritually they were very mature beyond those elders around them.

What I was saying in my previous post is, like Josiah, David and Timothy some men mature much faster in the Word and Spiritual things than others. It is possible for a 25 year old Christian to understand something a 50 year old Christian cannot.

That is not based only on my experiance, but most importantly on the experiance of the Word of God.

IFBReformer
http://www.ifbreformation.org

[ February 25, 2005, 10:16 AM: Message edited by: IfbReformer ]

 

[IfbReformer]

Originally posted by James_Newman:
tr.v. fre·quent·ed, fre·quent·ing, fre·quents (also fr-kwnt)

To pay frequent visits to; be in or at often: frequent a restaurant.

The OP was asked about frequenting the theater. How many times did you see Finding Nemo? If you habitually spend your friday nights in front of the silver screen (let alone 4 hours a day in front of the 'new family altar') you are going to see all kinds of junk. Just because there may be an occasional bright spot in an otherwise dark latrine doesn't mean you should jump in looking for quarters.

First off, when most people speak of "frequenting" the theater they mean do you go at all. I think you know that.

Secondly as Solomon said there is a time and place for all things(as long as they are not sin in and of themselves). There is a time to relax and a time to work, a time to do this or that.

There is nothing wrong with a family going to a show(as long it is not filled with filth) and there is nothing wrong with a family sitting down watching movies together at home.

I try and spend at least one night a week watching movies with my children(either Friday or Saturday nights). I also try each night(although we miss sometimes) to read them the scriptures before bed and tell stories of the history around those scriptures.

It is all about balance, which unfortunately many Christians today do not have.

They either spend all their time in front of the TV or Movies(as you say) or they are like other Christians who feel it is a sin to relax or do anything enteraining as that would be "a waste of their time".

IFBReformer
http://www.ifbreformation.org

 

[Aaron]

Dave,

Your last post proves my point. You said simply that it isn't much work to discern right and wrong. I posted Scripture to rebut that.

Now, instead of focusing on the issue, you ramble on for three lengthy paragraphs about how arrogant and legalistic I am. How does that have anything to do with the issue to which I responded?

Nothing, except that it pretty much undoes every argument you make about something.

And I challenge you to find any post at all in which I've held up my own feelings as a standard of anything.

Those who are skilled in the word of righteousness will have better insights on right and wrong about any subject at all.

Those who use only milk are unskilled.

True or False?

True. End of discussion.

You are wrong to assert that if there is no explicit Scripture on a subject then no judgment can be made.

Whether I'm right or wrong about a subject is beside the point.

 

[James_Newman]

Originally posted by IfbReformer:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by James_Newman:
tr.v. fre·quent·ed, fre·quent·ing, fre·quents (also fr-kwnt)

To pay frequent visits to; be in or at often: frequent a restaurant.

The OP was asked about frequenting the theater. How many times did you see Finding Nemo? If you habitually spend your friday nights in front of the silver screen (let alone 4 hours a day in front of the 'new family altar') you are going to see all kinds of junk. Just because there may be an occasional bright spot in an otherwise dark latrine doesn't mean you should jump in looking for quarters.

First off, when most people speak of "frequenting" the theater they mean do you go at all. I think you know that.

Secondly as Solomon said there is a time and place for all things(as long as they are not sin in and of themselves). There is a time to relax and a time to work, a time to do this or that.

There is nothing wrong with a family going to a show(as long it is not filled with filth) and there is nothing wrong with a family sitting down watching movies together at home.

I try and spend at least one night a week watching movies with my children(either Friday or Saturday nights). I also try each night(although we miss sometimes) to read them the scriptures before bed and tell stories of the history around those scriptures.

It is all about balance, which unfortunately many Christians today do not have.

They either spend all their time in front of the TV or Movies(as you say) or they are like other Christians who feel it is a sin to relax or do anything enteraining as that would be "a waste of their time".

IFBReformer
http://www.ifbreformation.org </font>[/QUOTE]Pro 5:8 Remove thy way far from her, and come not nigh the door of her house:

How close can you get before you are nigh the door? And should we always be walking a thin line between sin and liberty? Is it not better to just stay away and be sure you are not nigh?

2Co 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.

Why would we want to poke our fingers as close to it as possible and chant 'I'm not touching it! I'm not touching it!' Christianity today has developed a fear of holiness, and lost the fear of God.

I understand the need to relax and spend time with your family, but there are better ways to do it. I have not seen my father in years, he disappeared when I was about 14. I guarantee you, what I miss the most is not the time we spent watching movies and television.

 

[Aaron]

I missed this post:

Originally posted by IfbReformer:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Aaron:
Rom. 14 and 1 Cor. 10 clearly state that the stronger are to defer to the weaker in matters of conscience, without casting judgment upon them. So all this banter about how Rom. 14 gives "me" the right to do what to do is a clear violation of that principle.

Love would say, "If attending the theatre causes my brother to offend, then I will not attend the theatre as long as the world stands."

Aaron,

Actually Romans 14 is pretty balanced and if Romans 14 simply meant whoever is the weakest determines the standards for everyone else than Paul would not have even needed to write Romans 14.</font>[/QUOTE]Who said that's what Rom. 14 meant? Read what was written. The standard is love. If you love your weaker brother, you will defer to him in matters of conscience. The exhortation to those who abstain from meat does not undo it.

But he was try to teach Christians how to live together with one anothers strengths and weaknesses.

More accurately, he was teaching those more mature in the Faith how to respond to and love their weaker brothers. That's more than 90% of the passage.

What Paul talked about never eating meat again, it is clear from the context of the passage that it was hyberably(exageration to make a point)-(I know I am spelling that wrong).

There's nothing in the context to indicate that statement as hyperbole. Even if it were, it still prohibits you from wounding a weaker brother's conscience, or emboldening him to violate it.

Otherwise it would not have made any sense for him to say to the weaker brother not to judge the stronger brother - that would have been pointless.

How so? The commandment to defer to the weaker brother in matters of conscience is quite clear. Are you saying the exhortation not to judge another is really saying that you can go right on loving yourself more than him?

Actually, the prohibition is against judging God's "servant". Eating is something necessary for life. If in something so basic we are to defer to the weaker brother's conscience, how much more in an activity that has no value whatever in sustaining life or furthering God's Kingdom?

I've asked several times in this thread how one can seek Christ's Kingdom at the movies. So far no one has answered. The one who abstains does so for the sake of Christ. Do you attend for His sake? Of course not. You do it for your own sake. If you cannot describe how going to the movies is serving Christ, how can you hide behind a passage of Scripture clearly intended to free one for His service?

Paul was saying that if believe an activity is not displeasing to the Lord, but my brother does, I should not put it in his face. If he is uncomfortable with it then I should not talk about a movie I just saw at the theater this weekend.

Not at all. Paul said that if eating meat emboldens your brother to wound his weak conscience, then you should not eat meat. Period.

But on the other side, if that weaker brother is driving down the road on the weekend and happens to see my entering a theater, he should not judge me for doing it - that is exactly what Paul is saying.

By what rules of language do you get that reading out of the passage?

The point is that you and others are misusing this passage to justify the pleasures you seek.

Now, before you reply, note that in no place have I described my own activities or held them up to others as an example. I have only dealt with the Scripture and the exact comments of your post. When you reply--if you reply--do likewise.

 

[Aaron]

Originally posted by IfbReformer:
First off, when most people speak of "frequenting" the theater they mean do you go at all. I think you know that.

No they don't. I have never heard anyone use the word "frequent" or any of its derivitives to describe a rare or isolated event, until just now when I observed you defining it that way. I am well read and educated and interact on a daily basis with people from all over the world. (My employer is an international corporation.)

I have not heard one instance of anyone using the word "frequenting" in the sense that you say most people mean.

What quirky little place on the globe do you come from where "frequent" means "at all"?

 

[IfbReformer]

Originally posted by Aaron:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by IfbReformer:
First off, when most people speak of "frequenting" the theater they mean do you go at all. I think you know that.

No they don't. I have never heard anyone use the word "frequent" or any of its derivitives to describe a rare or isolated event, until just now when I observed you defining it that way. I am well read and educated and interact on a daily basis with people from all over the world. (My employer is an international corporation.)

I have not heard one instance of anyone using the word "frequenting" in the sense that you say most people mean.

What quirky little place on the globe do you come from where "frequent" means "at all"? </font>[/QUOTE]I have lived in Michigan and now live in Virginia and I have heard people say things like "we don't frequent the theaters" and when they said it, everyone there understood it to mean you don't go to shows - period.

I understand the dictionary definition, and if that is the sense you are using it thats fine. But you know that words can sometimes take on a life of their own, thats how languages evolve and change over time - for better or for worse.

IFBReformer

 

[IfbReformer]

Originally posted by James_Newman:
Pro 5:8 Remove thy way far from her, and come not nigh the door of her house:

How close can you get before you are nigh the door? And should we always be walking a thin line between sin and liberty? Is it not better to just stay away and be sure you are not nigh?

What does Solomon's admonition to young men to stay away from the adulteress woman have to do with staying away from a Movie theater?

In fact, if we take the passage you apply here from Proverbs, then did Solomon tell the young man to stay away from all women(movies) because some women are whores(bad movies)?

Certainly there are some evil movies at the theater, just like there are bad videos at the video store, just like there are bad books at the book store.

But I don't throw out the bookstore because of some bad books, I don't throw out the video store because of some bad videos, and I don't throw out the Movie theater because of some bad movies.

As to the thin line between sin and liberty - are you saying God wants us to invent artificial, extra biblical rules to keep ourselves safe?

I am not standing close to any line when I watch a movie that is not filled with filth. The line is, does this movie in and of itself send a message that violates God's law? Does this movie glorify and condone what God call's evil? If it does than I should not watch it, if it does not than I may. Its that simple.

Everyday we must practice Biblical discernment in the radio programs we listen to, in the books or magazines we read, in the newspapers we read, and yes even in the TV programs, videos and movies we may watch.

Originally posted by James_Newman:
2Co 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.

Why would we want to poke our fingers as close to it as possible and chant 'I'm not touching it! I'm not touching it!' Christianity today has developed a fear of holiness, and lost the fear of God.

Ok, heres the logic from you I am seeing:

If I watch good show on TV or a good movie at the theater, I have to look through the list of programs or movies that are bad, make a judgement according to Biblical principles and choose a program or movie that is good. In your estimation this entire process, whether wathing TV or going to the show is bad thing.

If we find that we have to judge the good from the bad in something, we just should throw out the whole process right?

You see those who don't ever go to a show, and never watch TV because there are some bad movies or bad tv shows are not using any Biblical discernment. They are just throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

They may think they are practicing discernment, the same way a quaker does when they seperate themselves from the outside world. But they are not.

It is too sides of the same coin. Some Christians practice no discernment, and will watch any TV show or movie put in front of them. Other Christians will practice no discernment and watch no TV and no movies.

But then there are Christians who will watch some TV and some movies, and use Biblical discernment to decide which ones they will watch and which ones they will not watch.

Originally posted by James_Newman:
I understand the need to relax and spend time with your family, but there are better ways to do it. I have not seen my father in years, he disappeared when I was about 14. I guarantee you, what I miss the most is not the time we spent watching movies and television.

I do other things with my children besides watch TV. But watching movies and TV has produced some found memories between us as well. You see, we can enjoy many things together not just a select few things.

IFBReformer

 

[IfbReformer]

Originally posted by Aaron:
Who said that's what Rom. 14 meant? Read what was written. The standard is love. If you love your weaker brother, you will defer to him in matters of conscience. The exhortation to those who abstain from meat does not undo it.

Aaron,

We agree the standard is love. But no where in this passage does Paul say that God wants those who are stronger to take on the standards of the weaker brother. We are to love him and respect him, and do nothing in his presense that would cause him to sin against God or his conscience - that is what Paul is saying here.

Why would Paul exhort those who abstain from meat not judge the stronger brother who eats it? You still have not answered this. Paul could have just said, ok all Christians should not eat meat because some Christians are offended. He never says that.

In fact in Colossians 2 Paul addresses this:

8See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ...

16Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day...

20Since you died with Christ to the basic principles of this world, why, as though you still belonged to it, do you submit to its rules: 21“Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!”? 22These are all destined to perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings. 23Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their selfimposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.

Should I let someone judge me for going to a movie theater? Should I submit to man-made rules that appear wise? Should I submit to someone elses rules that are based on tradition and not the commands of scripture?

Our complete understanding of Christian liberty however is not based soley on Romans 14, which I am sure you are aware of.

1 Corinthians 10:23-33(addresses the stronger brother),1 Corinthians 8(addresses the stronger brother) and Romans 14(addresses both the stronger and weaker brother) tell us how to handle our Christian liberty properly.

Yes everything must be done in love, but that does not mean we must surrender our liberty.

"...why should my freedom be judged by another's conscience?" 1 Corinthians 10:29

What is most interesting about I Corinthians 10 is that Paul tells believers to "25Eat anything sold in the meat market without raising questions of conscience, 26for, “The earth is the Lord's, and everything in it.”"

Why would he tell them to this if as you assert Christians should change their standards(both in front of and outside the view of weaker brothers)?

He makes it clear in the following passage just after telling them to go ahead and buy meat in the market not to eat the meat in front of someone else who conscience might be bothered.

This is exactly what Paul was talking about in Romans 14. Do not put it in your brothers face, in the company of your weaker brother, do not do things which would go against his standards in his presense.

But in Romans 14 we have Paul addressing the weaker brother specifically and telling him not to judge his stronger brother for eating the meat if he sees him("...the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him...why do you judge your brother?"(Rom 14:3 & 10))

Originally posted by Aaron:
I've asked several times in this thread how one can seek Christ's Kingdom at the movies. So far no one has answered. The one who abstains does so for the sake of Christ. Do you attend for His sake? Of course not. You do it for your own sake. If you cannot describe how going to the movies is serving Christ, how can you hide behind a passage of Scripture clearly intended to free one for His service?

Those who eat meat, ate meat to the glory of Christ. It was not necessary for them to eat meat, they could have lived on vegatibles.

In everything I do - whether it is eating,drinking,playing with my children,going to church, playing sports, watching tv or going to movies I try to do to the glory of God. I fail the Lord at times, but I confess my sin and get back and try to serve him again.

1 Corinthians 10:31
"So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God."

I seek Christ's Kingdom in whatever I do and my enjoing a good story, whether reading it in a book, watching it on TV or watching it at movie theater brings glory to God and seeks his kingdom. When I practice Biblical discretion, and honor those things which are good and abhor those things which are evil I am advancing God's kingdom and bringing glory to him.

Certainly there should be a balance and we should not spend all our time at the theaters or watching TV, but as Solomon said, there is a time and season for everything under heaven. Its all about balance.

IFBReformer

 

[James_Newman]

Originally posted by IfbReformer:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by James_Newman:
Pro 5:8 Remove thy way far from her, and come not nigh the door of her house:

How close can you get before you are nigh the door? And should we always be walking a thin line between sin and liberty? Is it not better to just stay away and be sure you are not nigh?

What does Solomon's admonition to young men to stay away from the adulteress woman have to do with staying away from a Movie theater?

In fact, if we take the passage you apply here from Proverbs, then did Solomon tell the young man to stay away from all women(movies) because some women are whores(bad movies)?

Certainly there are some evil movies at the theater, just like there are bad videos at the video store, just like there are bad books at the book store.

But I don't throw out the bookstore because of some bad books, I don't throw out the video store because of some bad videos, and I don't throw out the Movie theater because of some bad movies.

As to the thin line between sin and liberty - are you saying God wants us to invent artificial, extra biblical rules to keep ourselves safe?

I am not standing close to any line when I watch a movie that is not filled with filth. The line is, does this movie in and of itself send a message that violates God's law? Does this movie glorify and condone what God call's evil? If it does than I should not watch it, if it does not than I may. Its that simple.

Everyday we must practice Biblical discernment in the radio programs we listen to, in the books or magazines we read, in the newspapers we read, and yes even in the TV programs, videos and movies we may watch.

Originally posted by James_Newman:
2Co 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.

Why would we want to poke our fingers as close to it as possible and chant 'I'm not touching it! I'm not touching it!' Christianity today has developed a fear of holiness, and lost the fear of God.

Ok, heres the logic from you I am seeing:

If I watch good show on TV or a good movie at the theater, I have to look through the list of programs or movies that are bad, make a judgement according to Biblical principles and choose a program or movie that is good. In your estimation this entire process, whether wathing TV or going to the show is bad thing.

If we find that we have to judge the good from the bad in something, we just should throw out the whole process right?

You see those who don't ever go to a show, and never watch TV because there are some bad movies or bad tv shows are not using any Biblical discernment. They are just throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

They may think they are practicing discernment, the same way a quaker does when they seperate themselves from the outside world. But they are not.

It is too sides of the same coin. Some Christians practice no discernment, and will watch any TV show or movie put in front of them. Other Christians will practice no discernment and watch no TV and no movies.

But then there are Christians who will watch some TV and some movies, and use Biblical discernment to decide which ones they will watch and which ones they will not watch.

Originally posted by James_Newman:
I understand the need to relax and spend time with your family, but there are better ways to do it. I have not seen my father in years, he disappeared when I was about 14. I guarantee you, what I miss the most is not the time we spent watching movies and television.

I do other things with my children besides watch TV. But watching movies and TV has produced some found memories between us as well. You see, we can enjoy many things together not just a select few things.

IFBReformer </font>[/QUOTE]There is no baby in that dirty bathtub. If there was, it drowned a long time ago. The problem with your view, that a Christian should use discernment while watching television, is how do you exercise that discernement before you have already seen the movie you shouldn't have watched? I appreciate your jab at those who decide not to watch the stuff as not using discernment, but I think you realize that we have all seen enough of the stuff to know what it is going to be before we watch it. I don't need to see it to exercise my discernment on it.

 

[IfbReformer]

Originally posted by James_Newman:
There is no baby in that dirty bathtub. If there was, it drowned a long time ago. The problem with your view, that a Christian should use discernment while watching television, is how do you exercise that discernement before you have already seen the movie you shouldn't have watched? I appreciate your jab at those who decide not to watch the stuff as not using discernment, but I think you realize that we have all seen enough of the stuff to know what it is going to be before we watch it. I don't need to see it to exercise my discernment on it.

How do you exercise discernment before watching the Movie or TV show or reading the Book? In years past we did not have all the tools(but we had some) that we do now. We now not only have the rating system(PG, PG-13 and R, NC-17 and such..) But now they have to put in small words underneath the rating why it was given that. It will say like words like "language,sexuality,nudity or violence,crude humor". These things allow us to practice discernment. Also we can go further by looking at written reviews of the TV shows, Movies or Books we will read. Amazon.com(for books) www.pluggedinonline.com (from Focus on the family) is just one of many sites you can look at for in-depth reviews.

So it is very possible to practice discernment before watching a movie, TV program or reading a book.

IFBReformer

 

[av1611jim]

As I see It;
On the one side it appears we have christians playing the game of "how close to the line can I get without sin", while on the other side we have christians taking the stand "I will not even get CLOSE to the line".

JMO For what it's worth. Count me on the side of the latter.
In HIS service;
Jim

 

[Aaron]

No, Jim. I'm not saying that at all.

Eating meat is right and good, even if the animal was killed in a pagan sacrifice, if one is eating for strength and not for gluttony. Whether the activity is right or wrong does not depend upon what a man thinks about it, but what God says about it.

But we have freedom NOT to eat meat if we have a conscience toward it as an evil thing. It is always wrong to violate one's own conscience, and the "stronger" sin against Christ to sin against their brethren and wound their "weaker" conscience.

That's what love is about, and that is the true force of Rom. 14 and other related passages.

Dave and IFB are applying Rom. 14 to the activity of frequenting the theatre. Whether that's an appropriate application of the passage is another debate. For argument's sake, let's say that it is. Their use of the passage to say that it grants them the right to do whatever is right in their own minds despite the conscience of their weaker brothers is a clear violation of the principles enumerated therein.

Love says, I will lay down my life for my brothers. They're saying, I can live my life anyway I want, and if my brothers have a problem with it, it's their problem. Am I my brother's keeper?

 

[av1611jim]

Aaron. We are in agreement here. I think we are just saying it differently but arriving at the same conclusion.

In HIS service;
Jim

 

[IfbReformer]

Originally posted by Aaron:

Dave and IFB are applying Rom. 14 to the activity of frequenting the theatre. Whether that's an appropriate application of the passage is another debate. For argument's sake, let's say that it is. Their use of the passage to say that it grants them the right to do whatever is right in their own minds despite the conscience of their weaker brothers is a clear violation of the principles enumerated therein.

Love says, I will lay down my life for my brothers. They're saying, I can live my life anyway I want, and if my brothers have a problem with it, it's their problem. Am I my brother's keeper?

Aaron,

We have stated over and over again that we do not believe we should do something in our weaker brothers presense that would go against his standards.

Don't say that we are saying we can. It is quite another thing to say I can never do something - even away from the weaker brother just because he thinks that way on an issue.

"25Eat anything sold in the meat market without raising questions of conscience, 26for, “The earth is the Lord's, and everything in it.”...why should my freedom be judged by another's conscience?"" I Corinthians 10:25-26 & 29

Paul elaborates here in I Corinthians 10 on what he has said in other passages like Romans 14. He tells the stronger brother to go ahead and by meat in the market, and only if he is in the presense of weaker brother would abstain from eating it. Thats it period.

I guess you would disagree with Apostle Paul here that our conscience should be judged by another believer's conscience?

Once again, if you are going to argue with us, do it honestly without saying I believe I can put my freedom in my weaker brother's face because I do not and that is exactly what Paul is talking about.

IFBReformer

 

[ForHisGlory15]

GUOTE]Originally posted by Aaron:
[/QUOTE] I have never heard anyone use the word "frequent" or any of its derivitives to describe a rare or isolated event, until just now when I observed you defining it that way. I am well read and educated and interact on a daily basis with people from all over the world. (My employer is an international corporation.)I have not heard one instance of anyone using the word "frequenting" in the sense that you say most people mean. What quirky little place on the globe do you come from where "frequent" means "at all"? [/QB][/QUOTE]

It's sad to me that there exists a discussion about whether or not "frequenting the theatre is a sin or not" (If you can go "as unto the Lord" and with a clear conscience toward God and man, go...and if you can't, don't. The only sin to be concerned about with this issue is when one side condemns the other.) Having said that, I had to post that I was just with a group of friends who all claim SC to have been our primary residence. The question was asked, "Do you frequent the Marble Slab?" (a local ice-cream parlor)All commented that it was over-priced, but that yes, they did "frequent" the place...about one or two times in the past year. Their general consensus about the word was that going approx. once a year constitutes "frequenting." So, the hills of SC must be one of those quirky little places, too. It's like the word "decadent" that we use to describe that chocolate cake we love (or the ice-cream at Marble Slab). The dictionary def. is "marked by decay." Regardless, we have found it to be a great adjective when applied to any horribly rich dessert.

 

[Repent_and_Believe]

I will come at this from the viewpoint of testimony and knowledge.

I grew up on plays and the theater. My dad was in one musical production after another. I know most of the major musicals and then some.

Unless its a play about a Biblical happening or a great event in history, has no bent on worldliness and doesnt wink at sin I wont go to it. And I often avoid Biblical videos as they often mess up what the Bible teaches. There are good videos out there that teach the Bible correctly. Why waste time on one that doesnt.

(by the way I always find Ben Hur a wonderful movie but still I tend to watch it less and less as I get older - havent seen it in over three years I believe)

Thus I wont go to hear Shakespeare or any other worldly author like Arthur Miller and many others.

Why? To hear humanism projected on me? I can read a book at home and learn it all again and not pay a dime.

I found modern plays a real bore in school. What a waste of ink. Novels written by John Steinbeck that were required reading, The Great Gatsby and so on. A real waste of my time. Lots of types in them of course. But my Bible has those too. I would much rather learn of the types of Christ in the Old Testament than to learn (again) that the billboard with the eyeglasses in the Great Gatsby was about this and that.

And yet I know of Christian schools and colleges that use the world's literature as a measuring rod of one's knowledge. You just simply must know these books as its what you will need to know in the world! Why dont Christians start cultivating their own literature that our next generation should read. I would much rather read a book on a missionary than one on Aristotle!

Its one thing to teach speech and have your students give speeches - its another to dress them up and have them do a Broadway musical.

My dad had the soundtrack to The Phantom of the Opera and absolutely insisted that I (now as a Christian) take it home with me. I listened to about four minutes of it and had to turn it off.

Others went to see Cats and other Broadway musicals when they came to town. Hey, that is their choice. If I want to be entertained I can find a cheaper and more enriching way to do it.

One of my favorite musicals used to be the Music Man. And My Fair Lady. Carousel and Oklahoma! (! is part of the title)

I could quote lyrics from these from the main characters in these shows that basically wink at sin. Is that what we want to spend with our "free" time (is there such a thing?)?

What about Harold Hill in the Music Man? His objective was to swindle everyone in town yet he turns out to be the good guy. And smalltown America is made to look stupid (read: Biblically interested small towns).

And not to mention that drinking that goes on in most movies by the main characters. I think that is why alot of us liked the Lone Ranger - he didnt drink or smoke! Meawhile, some felt that the Westerns with their shootouts were influencing many of us towards violence. Well they were probably right. It used to be the kids playing with play-guns. Now its kids wiping out students at their school after playing tons of games like Doom2 and so on. Some westerns dont bother me as much as others. Meanwhile, after two hours is over what have I learned again. Or was it the nice sunsets that caught my eye and why I watch them again and again. Its the eye gate thing all over again. Pleasing to the eye.

The media and theater do not have a very good track record.

Dont you get tired of saying when you see the missionaries come back on furlough "I wish I had a more practical life like their's?"

I did so I quit making TV my babysitter and found other things to fill my schedule with - like posting here once in awhile or spending more time reading my bible, learing how to wire a house, how to put up a fence, etc. Or just encouraging a brother that is down.

Once I got away from entertainment as a schedule filler I enjoyed life alot more.

So is it wrong to go to the theater - well speaking from experience - there are alot of better things to do with one's time. But I suppose if your town had a local production that did shows/plays that were not from Broadway or the humanistic playwrights of the modern ere (or any humunistic play for that matter no matter what era its from!) then I suppose there is no problem.

There are alot of good things that I have dropped from my schedule because I always seem to find an excuse to do something that is better. Thus if a new movie came out on DVD and I could cut out the cuss words! C'mon! What a nuisance. What am I supposed to tell the guy at the rental store - that I cut out the cusswords while I hand him a tract? Question: are you watching the video for some action scene, beautiful specatcular scene or because it moves you emotionally?

The worst memory I have as a Christian is visiting with a preacher's family with a relative of his. They had the Kevin Costner Robin Hood movie. I had to leave the room. Then when I came back from a short rest in my room the scene was one of where the woman was being raped by one of the bad guys. The preacher didnt advance the film! I had to leave the room again. I hate it when a host will do something like that let alone what impact it had on his kids. The man told his kids "Dont look." So do we buy the video but then just advance the movie! C'mon folks - take a stand for God's sake. Lets get the DVDs out of the house if they have offensive language or violence.

Instead of desiring to go to the theater how about helping an elderly lady out by painting her fence (by day of course!) or helping her hang some curtains or perhaps being a companion for her or some elderly fellow.

How about a night softball game with some kids that dont have dads?

Or a crafts night at your house with some of the neighbor kids?

So remember - I was a TV/Movie/Theater/Play kind of guy. But I found it better to seek things to replace them.

If you have a neighbor who's boy is in a play about a famous person or Biblical character then of course - go see it.

But go to see Cats, Phantom of the Opera, Pajama Game and the rest? There are much better things to do with one's time.

For plays - I used to enjoy "The Man Who Came to Dinner" but after seeing it the last time many years ago it had some scenes in it that bothered me - sin.

The clock is running - not much time left before we are with Christ. There are much better things to do with our time.

If you are a TV addict and want to get off of it - try removing one hour a week from your schedule. Just pick your favorite show first and replace it with something wholesome to do like take a walk around the park or help someone out. You will find that by the third week that TV really doesnt matter much at all. Or the theater.

For those that suffer with real TV addiction I would advocate spending those hours away from it rather than watching a Christian video unless it is educational. The idea of breaking any pattern is to find one that glorifies God and we find that we enjoy it as well when we know that is our goal.

If I had to do it all over again I would never watch one musical or play that I saw as a kid. Not only do they teach an incorrect view on romance but they are just not godly period.

Separation has definitely taken a beating in the last 50 years. Now its "we just have a box that eliminates the cuss words from the movies we watch."

What is next - a box that removes sex scenes?

If that is how close you are going to get to sin then just toss the TV out period rather than let it damage your kids or family.

The serpent still bites even if you dont hear the words.

 

[Aaron]

Originally posted by IfbReformer:
Aaron,

We have stated over and over again that we do not believe we should do something in our weaker brothers presense that would go against his standards.

And I've said again and again, that isn't what Paul is saying.

Don't say that we are saying we can.

I didn't say that. I said you are misreading Romans 14 to think it means "just in his presence." You're not doing anything different than the world. Men at work don't drink in my presence. In that they're practicing common courtesy. But if one quit drinking for my sake, he it is that loves me.

Your silence about the theatre in the presence of one who has a conscience toward it is not all that is demanded by love. In no way are you laying down your life for your brother. You're just practicing common courtesy.

It is quite another thing to say I can never do something - even away from the weaker brother just because he thinks that way on an issue.

Why, yes it is a different thing. That's what Paul is saying.

"25Eat anything sold in the meat market without raising questions of conscience,

But if any man say unto you, This is offered in sacrifice unto idols, eat not for his sake that shewed it, and for conscience sake.

For his sake, the one who said so to you. We are not allowed the freedom to let unbelievers think we are partakers in their idolatry.

Conscience, I say, not thine own, but of the other:

Not the unbeliever who goaded you or invited you, but the brother who is not there, who might hear of your boldness (or brazenness rather in this case) and be emboldened himself to violate his conscience.

Paul elaborates here in I Corinthians 10 on what he has said in other passages like Romans 14. He tells the stronger brother to go ahead and by meat in the market, and only if he is in the presense of weaker brother would abstain from eating it. Thats it period.

That's not what he said at all. Read it again and again. Carefully. Your reading of that Scripture is incompatible with 1 Cor. 8:13, even if it is, as you say, hyperbole. It isn't, but even if it were, it would be so ridiculously exaggerated as to render it meaningless.

I guess you would disagree with Apostle Paul here that our conscience should be judged by another believer's conscience?

No one judges our conscience. Love requires that we live in a manner void of offense to another's. How is that judging one's conscience?

Once again, if you are going to argue with us, do it honestly without saying I believe I can put my freedom in my weaker brother's face because I do not and that is exactly what Paul is talking about.

Again, show us all where I said that. What I said is that your views on Rom 14 and related passages are erroneous and promote self-love.

Besides, Rom 14 et. al. do not apply to the theatre. A theatrical performance is a form of communication, of interaction with the playwrite and the actors (whether they're on stage or film). This bears no similarity to meats, which God has given for us to receive with thanksgiving.

 

[superdave]

Why, yes it is a different thing. That's what Paul is saying.

This is clearly an imbalanced view of Rom 14, you conveniently ignore the portions of the passage that don't support your condescending view on those who disagree with you.

I go away for a few days and we start arguing about what "is" is

I hope you are just arguing about the use of the word frequent as a verb because you hate to be wrong, and not because you really don't know that it can be used in a way that does not reference frequency.

 

[Aaron]

My pastor has never set foot in a movie theatre except to see The Passion of the Christ. Would he say he frequents the theatre?

You you say he does?

He wouldn't, and if you say he has "frequented" the theatre, then it's you and IFB, my friends, employing Clintonian verb parsing, not me.

Frequenting means one makes a habit of it, whether it's going once a week, once a month, or once a year. It may be low frequency, but it's a frequency none the less.

But you and I can argue about that till the cows come home. What would it matter? Let's look at how John3v36 used it at the beginning of the thread.

"Is frequent (by which he meant to frequent, or frequenting) the theatre sin?"

In that question, and in the wording of his post, it's clear that he meant a present tense, continuous action. Is this something that you do (present tense, continuous action).

But back to my point—Liberty. You're using passages designed to give one liberty—not to seek pleasure—but to serve Christ. Now IFB went out on limb and said he takes his family to the movies to glorify Christ.

Gotta give the guy credit. At least he saw 1 Cor. 10:31.

We'd now like to hear how taking his family to the movies glorifies Christ.