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Is Full "consistant" Preterism

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by Bro Tony, May 11, 2005.

?
  1. Heretical

    69.0%
  2. Merely Extra-biblical

    17.2%
  3. Merely-unorthodox

    10.3%
  4. An acceptable view within the pale of orthodoxy

    3.4%
  5. The correct view of eschotology

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  1. Bro Tony

    Bro Tony New Member

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    Nice dodge without dealing with the curiosity of the supposed greatest event in the history of the church. There were those who wrote and talked about the destruction of Jerusalem in the early church, none who spoke of the 2nd coming and the resurrection having occurred.

    I am not denying that Paul spoke and referred to the law in 1 Cor 15: 50 what I am saying is that the purpose for the whole chapter was to stand against those who did not believe in a literal resurrection. The modern day Saducees seem to have revived the denial of a literal resurrection for those who are in Christ. As He was raised we shall be raised.

    You know the arguments for the time passages as well as I, that you dont believe them is apparent. They have been hashed and rehashed over and over and they never get anywhere. You see them as you do and then try to build all the rest of the events in the NT to fit in your understanding, completely neglecting the impact of denying a literal return of Jesus to stand on this earth, and a literal resurrection of the saints in the same way Jesus was resurrected.

    As for how there could be anyone who thought the resurrection could have happened if it was a physical resurrection, is just my point. They were doing what the full preterist are doing today. Denying a physical resurrection and claiming it already happened, even though no one had seen or experienced it. This teaching was so ridiculous that Paul calls it foolish and ignorant. This view is as foolish and ignorant today as it was then, yet like in Pauls time there are those today who believe and teach it. The Full Preterist.

    Finally, your view of what the Thessalonians thought of Pauls writings and by the way all the writings of the NT must be that they were only for that particular group and not meant for the whole NT church. I firmly reject this way of looking at the Scripture. The only reason I can see for a preterist to read the Scripture is for a historical purpose, not for living in Christ today.

    Bro Tony
     
  2. JackRUS

    JackRUS New Member

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    Grasshoper.
    You asked:
    In Rev. 21:3-4 it states this well before the angel tells John that these things are near:

    "And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
    And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be
    any more pain: for the former things are passed away."

    Are you sure that these things happened in the first century?

    Could 2Pet. 3:8 hold a clue for you?

    As for the point of the Creeds; it was put forth as an arguement to state that the early church knew nothing of hyper-preterism, yet you argued to the contrary.
     
  3. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper Active Member
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    Dodge? You haven't answered any of my questions yet.

    1.Do you believe this passage speaks of the same comings found in Matt 26:64, Matt 24:30,and Rev. 19:11-16?

    2.When Paul speaks of "Adams death" to what does he refer?

    3.According to I Cor. 15:50 what does the Law have to do with physical death?

    4.Again I ask, does something have to be fulfilled physically to be literal?

    Then why did Paul bring up the Law?
    Does something have to be fulfilled physically in order to be fulfilled literally?

    how can I believe them if you won't tell me what they are?
    There is a reason you refuse give me an alternative view of the meaning of the words, soon at hand, near......You don't because:
    1. you realize how absurd they are.
    2. Your argument that I don't take scripture literally goes out the window.

    You completely ignore them. You assume they are irrelevant.

    Paul corrected the timing not the nature.

    Yet you can't answer my questions.

    Oh I see. Those dopey Thessalonians thought Paul was speaking to them and their problems. Obviously he was ignoring them and speaking to us 21st century Christians. Did those poor Jews in Matt. 23 think Jesus was speaking about them or the modern "Jews" today living in Israel. Or perhaps future Jews who aren't born yet?

    But there are more problems. Despite the fact that this letter was written to a specific church you say it is actually written to all. Ok, lets assume you are correct. Isn't the "Church" raptured out before these events happen? So not only is it not written to the Thessalonians but in your view it is not even written for the Church today. The Church will be gone before this happens. You don't see a problem?

    FYI although I hold to a full-preterist position at this time I acknowledge it has problem texts and I would change my position if convinced. I have found in the last 4 years of studying eschatology every position has its problems. What I find curious is that no one will acknowledge it. People will just stick their head in the sand and ignore them rather than trying to deal with them.
    Having said that, the full-preterist position has the least amount of major problems in my opinion. The timing of events is just as important as the nature of those events. I cannot ignore one just to defend the other. I let the timing determine the nature not the other way around.

    Of course you do. You have to to hold to pre-mill disp. You must rip the text out of its 1st century context and bring it forward 2000 years.

    Is that the only reason you read the OT?
    So if you were a preterist you wouldn't love your brother?You would ignore the NT as an example on how to become more like Christ? Obviously you don't think like a preterist.



    JackRUS
    That's a question you have to ask Gentry. You brought him up. You seemed to agree with his method of interpretation. So you tell me, why doesn't "near" mean near in Rev. 21 like he says it does in Rev 1? Just a question of consistency for me. If I didn't believe Rev 21 means near, then I would be with Tony and deny all time-statements and return to being a dispie.

    No, not in these situations. Was God not able to communicate with His creation in a manner they would understand?
    2 Peter 3:8 is a statement about God( Ps 90:1-4), not whether we can trust His time-statements.

    I agree with what Tony said:

    I will listen to the Apostle Paul rather than modern day "theologians" who are not inspired.

    Funny, sometimes people want to quote Church Fathers and other times they want nothing to do with them.

    I don't try to interpret the creeds, just the Bible. How about you?
     
  4. Bro Tony

    Bro Tony New Member

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    When that is what the context requires, you want everyone to believe that 1 Cor 15 is written by Paul to deal with the timing of the resurrection and not the nature. Your preterist view requires this. Paul is clearly dealing with the physical resurrection of Jesus and the future physical resurrection of His saints. It did not happen in AD 70 and because it did not you have to change the whole context of the passage to fit your view. In Romans 6 we are told that we are buried with Christ in baptism raised to walk in newness of life. That raising or spiritual new life happens at salvation. When Paul wrote that to the Romans it was before AD 70, they were not waiting around for being raised to a new creature in Christ, it had happened when He saved them. Paul later talks to those who have already been raised in Christ about the coming resurrection, which would be like Christ. So to answer your question does the resurrection have to be physical to be literal----yes, according to the context of Pauls writing. To deny the physical resurrection of the saints that which is to be like Christ's is contrary to the Scriptures and would only be done because you are locked into a system that does not allow for anything beyond AD 70.

    </font>[/QUOTE]Good question, it would be nice for you to answer it in the context of the passage. The passage says that "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom..." Then Paul goes on to explain that a change is coming. What could he have been talking about? Are you saying that Paul had not experience the resurrection power of being raised in Christ because it was not AD 70? Paul like all believers received that at his salvation. But he also talked about a day when we shall all be raised as Christ was raised. You are still in the mortal, you have not put on immortality. In Adam death entered the human realm----Spiritual death immediately, physical death also as a result. In Christ we have been made spiritually alive, we have received everlasting life, but we must put off this tent and we shall receive that glorified body--so we may be as He is. To deny a physical resurrection is to deny what Paul teaches.

    We have dealt with Matt 26:64 before, you want it as a time passage to prove Jesus came back in AD 70. If you take it to mean that then Caiaphas would have had to be there in AD 70 and that is not the case.

    So to answer your question I do believe these are speaking of a literal second coming of Christ and not some paurousa. I believe they will be fulfilled when He returns. Again, I repeat there is no evidence from the 1st century church or from the Apostle John that these occurred in AD 70 when Titus overthrew Jerusalem. It does not even make sense that the early church would not celebrate this "great" event had it happened, not the least to say even mention it. You can say John decided not to, or was not lead, but that is illogical. If it had occurred you know the church would have proclaimed it from the hill tops. And not only that rather than bringing a time of peace and safety for the true church they spent the next 200+ years being persecuted and killed for their faith.

    I have now answered your questions. I realize you dont agree, but there are my answers. Take them, leave them, ignore them, ridicule them that is your choice.

    Two other things so we understand each other. I too realize that every view of eschatology has its problems. None seem to completely deal with all the nuances of our limited understanding and man-made theological systems. As you have studied, so have I and I find much more biblical evidence for a futurist view than a preterist view. Again, that you dont agree has been made quite evident. We will have to just disagree on this.

    Finally, I did not say that Pauls letters to the churches ie. Thess., weren't primarily for them. Certainly he was writing to those churches, but he was also writing to the church. Clearly, many of the things he spoke of to the first century church were future and they did not see. The teaching is still there for the church. And btw, you have to assume for your view that Paul was more concerned with the timing of the events rather than the nature. That is clearly where our approach differs, if the nature is not fulfilled than the supposed timing must be off or misunderstood. The nature of the resurrection has never been understood by orthodox Christianity as merely spiritual, Jesus was full bodily resurrected and so shall we be...."each in his own order".

    Thank you for your time.

    Bro Tony
     
  5. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper Active Member
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    No I don't.

    Here is the context:

    I Cor. 15:21For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.


    Paul says the last enemy is to be destroyed is death:

    I Cor 15: 26The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

    Paul says Jesus accomplished this:

    2 Tim 1: 10But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

    Paul connects this death with the law:

    56The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

    How is this not the same death found in Romans:

    Romans 7:9For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

    I do not consider it a heretical stretch to say these passages speak of the same death.

    Why does Paul bring up the law if he is speaking of physical death? You don't believe Romans is speaking of physical death do you?

    Romans 13: 11And do this, understanding the present time. The hour has come for you to wake up from your slumber, because our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed.

    I thought he had salvation already?

    Gal. 5: 5But by faith we eagerly await through the Spirit the righteousness for which we hope.

    I thought Paul was already righteous?

    I Pet. 1: 5who through faith are shielded by God's power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.

    I thought salvation was already revealed through Christ.

    Did Paul have salvation or not?

    Eph 2:5made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,

    We were raised with Christ. He is our Resurrection.

    Col. 2:12having been buried with him in baptism through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.

    2 Tim 1:10but it has now been revealed through the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who has destroyed death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.

    He brought life, but we don't have it? He brought immortality, but we don't have it?

    John 11: 25Jesus said to her, " I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; 26and whoever lives and believes in me will never die . Do you believe this?"

    What is your definition of immortality?

    Where does Genesis state that Adam's fall resulted in physical death?

    What do you believe the Tree of Life provided?

    Is everlasting life immortality?
    Is our glorified body in a hole in the ground or in Heaven according to 2 Cor 5?

    So Jesus wasn't speaking to Caiaphus?

    I agree, the passages I listed all speak of the same event. However, what was that event?

    John Gill:

    Matt 26:64
    and coming in, the clouds of heaven.
    So Christ's coming to take vengeance on the Jewish nation, as it is often called the coming of the son of man, is described in this manner,

    Matt 24:27,30
    so shall also the coming of the son of man be;
    but of his coming in his wrath and vengeance to destroy that people, their nation, city, and temple: so that after this to look for the Messiah in a desert, or secret chamber, must argue great stupidity and blindness; when his coming was as sudden, visible, powerful, and general, to the destruction of that nation, as the lightning that comes from the east, and, in a moment, shines to the west.

    and they shall see the son of man coming in the clouds of heaven,with power and great glory.

    The Arabic version reads it, "ye shall see", as is expressed by Christ, in (Matthew 26:64) . Where the high priest, chief priests, Scribes, and elders, and the whole sanhedrim of the Jews are spoken to: and as the same persons, namely, the Jews, are meant here as there; so the same coming of the son of man is intended; not his coming at the last day to judgment; though that will be in the clouds of heaven, and with great power and glory; but his coming to bring on, and give the finishing stroke to the destruction of that people, which was a dark and cloudy dispensation to them: and when they felt the power of his arm, might, if not blind and stupid to the last degree, see the glory of his person, that he was more than a mere man, and no other than the Son of God, whom they had despised, rejected, and crucified; and who came to set up his kingdom and glory in a more visible and peculiar manner, among the Gentiles.


    John Lightfoot

    27. For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

    [For as the lightning, &c.] To discover clearly the sense of this and the following clauses, those two things must be observed which we have formerly given notice of:--

    1. That the destruction of Jerusalem is very frequently expressed in Scripture as if it were the destruction of the whole world, Deuteronomy 32:22; "A fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell" (the discourse there is about the wrath of God consuming that people; see verses 20,21), "and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains." Jeremiah 4:23; "I beheld the earth, and lo, it was without form and void; and the heavens, and they had no light," &c. The discourse there also is concerning the destruction of that nation, Isaiah 65:17; "Behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered," &c. And more passages of this sort among the prophets. According to this sense, Christ speaks in this place; and Peter speaks in his Second Epistle, third chapter; and John, in the sixth of the Revelation; and Paul, 2 Corinthians 5:17, &c.

    Matthew Henry

    Matt 26:64
    Coming in the clouds of heaven;
    this refers to another prophecy concerning the Son of man (Daniel 7:13,14), which is applied to Christ (Luke 1:33), when he came to destroy Jerusalem; so terrible was the judgment, and so sensible the indications of the wrath of the Lamb in it, that it might be called a visible appearance of Christ;

    Adam Clarke

    Matt 26:64
    Verse 64. Thou hast said
    That is, I am the Christ, the promised Messiah, (See Clarke on Matthew 26:25. ;) and you and this whole nation shall shortly have the fullest proof of it: for hereafter, in a few years, ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, fully invested with absolute dominion, and coming in the clouds of heaven, to execute judgment upon this wicked race.

    Matt 24:30

    Verse 30. Then shall appear the sign of the Son of man
    The plain meaning of this is, that the destruction of Jerusalem will be such a remarkable instance of Divine vengeance, such a signal manifestation of Christ's power and glory, that all the Jewish tribes shall mourn, and many will, in consequence of this manifestation of God, be led to acknowledge Christ and his religion. By t?????, of the land, in the text, is evidently meant here, as in several other places, the land of Judea and its tribes, either its then inhabitants, or the Jewish people wherever found.



    I agree with many commentators who believe these events spoke of the events of AD70 and I agree with you that they speak of His second coming.
     
  6. BillyMac

    BillyMac New Member

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    I found it humorous that this person called preterism "the equivalent to the Flat Earth Society" ........... [​IMG]

    He is sooooo right, imo.

    "Preterism! I Can't Believe It."
     
  7. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper Active Member
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    Well BillyMac, any grade school level preterist could answer his questions raised in this article.

    The logic ends when you rip it out of its 1st century context.

    John Lightfoot

    34. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

    [This generation shall not pass, &c.] Hence it appears plain enough, that the foregoing verses are not to be understood of the last judgment, but, as we said, of the destruction of Jerusalem. There were some among the disciples (particularly John), who lived to see these things come to pass. With Matthew 16:28, compare John 21:22. And there were some Rabbins alive at the time when Christ spoke these things, that lived till the city was destroyed, viz. Rabban Simeon, who perished with the city, R. Jochanan Ben Zaccai, who outlived it, R. Zadoch, R. Ismael, and others.

    Does this guy ever read his Bible?

    Matt.24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world ( oiÎkoumeÑnh )for a testimony unto all the nations ( eáqnov ); and then shall the end come.

    Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world ( ko/smov ), and preach the gospel to the whole creation .(ktiðsiv)

    Matt.28:19 Go ye therefore, and make disciples of all the nations (eáqnov ), baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit:


    Acts 1:8 But ye shall receive power, when the Holy Spirit is come upon you: and ye shall be my witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea and Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth ( gh=),

    All fulfilled in the 1st century:

    Col.1:6 which is come unto you; even as it is also in all the world ( ko/smov ) bearing fruit and increasing, as it doth in you also, since the day ye heard and knew the grace of God in truth;

    Col 1:23 if so be that ye continue in the faith, grounded and stedfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel which ye heard, which was preached in all creation
    (ktiðsiv)under heaven; whereof I Paul was made a minister

    Romans 16:26 but now is manifested, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, is made known unto all the nations ( eáqnov) unto obedience of faith:

    Romans But I say, Did they not hear? Yea, verily, Their sound went out into all the earth ( gh=), And their words unto the ends of the world ( oiÎkoumeÑnh ).


    So the question to you BillyMac is, was the gospel preached to all the nations according to Paul?


    What about it?

    Rev 16:21And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

    Flavius Josephus

    Book V, Chapter VI, Section 3
    The engines, that all the legions had ready prepared for them, were admirably contrived; but still more extraordinary ones belonged to the tenth legion: those that threw darts and those that threw stones were more forcible and larger than the rest, by which they not only repelled the excursions of the Jews, but drove those away that were upon the walls also. Now the stones that were cast were of the weight of a talent (1), and were carried two furlongs and further. The blow they gave was no way to be sustained, not only by those that stood first in the way, but by those that were beyond them for a great space. As for the Jews, they at first watched the coming of the stone, for it was of a white color, and could therefore not only be perceived by the great noise it made, but could be seen also before it came by its brightness; accordingly the watchmen that sat upon the towers gave them notice when the engine was let go, and the stone came from it, and cried out aloud, in their own country language, THE STONE COMETH so those that were in its way stood off, and threw themselves down upon the ground; by which means, and by their thus guarding themselves, the stone fell down and did them no harm. But the Romans contrived how to prevent that by blacking the stone, who then could aim at them with success, when the stone was not discerned beforehand, as it had been till then; and so they destroyed many of them at one blow. Yet did not the Jews, under all this distress, permit the Romans to raise their banks in quiet; but they shrewdly and boldly exerted themselves, and repelled them both by night and by day.

    Because of the U.N.
    Perhaps you can tell me what prophecy the rebirth of Israel in 1948 fulfills.

    I guess the author would consider Spurgeon and Owen as Flat Earthers as well:

    C.H. Spurgeon (1865)
    "Did you ever regret the absence of the burnt-offering, or the red heifer, of any one of the sacrifices and rites of the Jews? Did you ever pine for the feast of tabernacle, or the dedication? No, because, though these were like the old heavens and earth to the Jewish believers, they have passed away, and we now live under the new heavens and a new earth, so far as the dispensation of divine teaching is concerned. The substance is come, and the shadow has gone: and we do not remember it." (Metropolitan Tabernacle Pulpit, vol. xxxvii, p. 354).

    John Owen (1721)
    'It is evident, then, that in the prophetical idiom and manner of speech, by heavens and earth, the civil and religious state and combination of men in the world, and the men of them, were often understood. So were the heavens and earth that world which then was destroyed by the flood.

    ' 4. On this foundation I affirm that the heavens and earth here intended in this prophecy of Peter, the coming of the Lord, the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men, mentioned in the destruction of that heaven and earth, do all of them relate, not to the last and final judgment of the world, but to that utter desolation and destruction that was to be made of the Judaical church and state

    'First, There is the foundation of the apostle's inference and exhortation, seeing that all these things, however precious they seem, or what value soever any put upon them, shall be dissolved, that is, destroyed; and that in that dreadful and fearful manner before mentioned, in a day of judgment, wrath, and vengeance, by fire and sword; let others mock at the threats of Christ's coming: He will come- He will not tarry; and then the heavens and earth that God Himself planted, -the sun, moon, and stars of the Judaical polity and church, -the whole old world of worship and worshippers, that stand out in their obstinancy against the Lord Christ, shall be sensibly dissolved and destroyed: this we know shall be the end of these things, and that shortly." (Sermon on 2 Peter iii. 11, Works, folio, 1721.).


    [​IMG]
     
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