Is "Fullness" an inadequate translation?

[Van]

Strong's G4138 transliterated as "plērōma" has two primary meanings:
a) That which fills a container or vessel
b) The container or vessel that was filled.

Thus when you see the word "fullness" in scripture, you must interpret which meaning is in view, and if it appears to be the filling material or component, you must consider what that material might be.

In Matthew 9:16 (also Mark 2:21) the word is translated "patch" thus indicating the material used to "fill" the torn garment. Here the idea is that the filling material must be suitable for the intended task.

In Mark 6:23 and Mark 8:20 the idea is the large about of broken pieces are used to fill baskets, indicating a miracle.

In John 1:16 we read (NASB) "For of His fullness G4138 we all received, and grace upon grace." Here we must decide what is "of His fullness." I believe the idea is Christ is filled with unconditional love from which grace after grace flows. So a "better" translation might be "From His love and grace we all received, and grace upon grace."

Romans 11:12 NASB: "Now if their transgression is riches for the world and their failure is riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their fullness G4138 be! Once again we must consider to what "fullness" refers. Transgression refers (I believe) to the Jews rejecting Christ, and thus the apostles take the gospel to the world (non-Jews) which provides God's riches to the world, and (I believe) their failure (diminishment) refers to the hardening of the unbelieving Jews provides God's riches to the Gentiles (again non-Jews). Thus the Jews "fullness" refers to accepting or receiving into themselves the gospel resulting in salvation and being indwelt with the Holy Spirit (their filling substance.)

Many other verses likewise present a vague meaning which then provides an opening for an agenda driven interpretation. The difficulty of course is picking a better description for the filling material in view.

 

[McCree79]

Strong's G4138 transliterated as "plērōma" has two primary meanings:
a) That which fills a container or vessel
b) The container or vessel that was filled.

Thus when you see the word "fullness" in scripture, you must interpret which meaning is in view, and if it appears to be the filling material or component, you must consider what that material might be.

In Matthew 9:16 (also Mark 2:21) the word is translated "patch" thus indicating the material used to "fill" the torn garment. Here the idea is that the filling material must be suitable for the intended task.

In Mark 6:23 and Mark 8:20 the idea is the large about of broken pieces are used to fill baskets, indicating a miracle.

In John 1:16 we read (NASB) "For of His fullness G4138 we all received, and grace upon grace." Here we must decide what is "of His fullness." I believe the idea is Christ is filled with unconditional love from which grace after grace flows. So a "better" translation might be "From His love and grace we all received, and grace upon grace."

Romans 11:12 NASB: "Now if their transgression is riches for the world and their failure is riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their fullness G4138 be! Once again we must consider to what "fullness" refers. Transgression refers (I believe) to the Jews rejecting Christ, and thus the apostles take the gospel to the world (non-Jews) which provides God's riches to the world, and (I believe) their failure (diminishment) refers to the hardening of the unbelieving Jews provides God's riches to the Gentiles (again non-Jews). Thus the Jews "fullness" refers to accepting or receiving into themselves the gospel resulting in salvation and being indwelt with the Holy Spirit (their filling substance.)

Many other verses likewise present a vague meaning which then provides an opening for an agenda driven interpretation. The difficulty of course is picking a better description for the filling material in view.

One of the tricky things about πλήρωμα is determining weather it is quantitative or qualitative.

One issue with the Roman's 11:12 interpretation above is that the the "pleroma" is not the material or substance inside "them"(αυτων). "Them" is the substance/material. They are the "what" being saved. So is their πλήρωμα qualitative or quantitative. If qualiataive it is refering to Israel being restored to the blessing of the Kingdom they once rejected.
If quantitative if refers to the full "number" of Israel to be saved. A large number will be added to the existing remnant. I lean towards quantitative since it seems very clear that pleroma is used in that sense in verse 25. Though I find it very possible that πλερωμα is both quantitative and qualitative.

John 1:16 is also off in the paraphrase rendering of pleroma. Two possibilities. The substance of Jesus is " the fullness of God" which is supported by the context of John 1 or is refers to His "fullness of grace",[supported by more immediate context of the verse] which we then receive grace out of his "fullness".

It seems that "fullness" is a much better option than to change the word into something it does not mean. Paraphrasing can be dangerous and say things the text is not saying.

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[Van]

One of the tricky things about πλήρωμα is determining weather it is quantitative or qualitative.

One issue with the Roman's 11:12 interpretation above is that the the "pleroma" is not the material or substance inside "them"(αυτων). "Them" is the substance/material. They are the "what" being saved. So is their πλήρωμα qualitative or quantitative. If qualiataive it is refering to Israel being restored to the blessing of the Kingdom they once rejected.
If quantitative if refers to the full "number" of Israel to be saved. A large number will be added to the existing remnant. I lean towards quantitative since it seems very clear that pleroma is used in that sense in verse 25. Though I find it very possible that πλερωμα is both quantitative and qualitative.

John 1:16 is also off in the paraphrase rendering of pleroma. Two possibilities. The substance of Jesus is " the fullness of God" which is supported by the context of John 1 or is refers to His "fullness of grace",[supported by more immediate context of the verse] which we then receive grace out of his "fullness".

It seems that "fullness" is a much better option than to change the word into something it does not mean. Paraphrasing can be dangerous and say things the text is not saying.

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1) I gave you the two meanings, and neither quantitative or qualitative were mentioned. The idea is the filling material or the thing filled.

2) We agree, the believing Jews "fullness" refers to accepting or receiving into themselves the gospel resulting in salvation and being indwelt with the Holy Spirit (their filling substance.) Another possible interpretation is "fullness"refers to the restoration of the "diminishment." Thus the riches to the world will be greater.

 

[McCree79]

1) I gave you the two meanings, and neither quantitative or qualitative were mentioned. The idea is the filling material or the thing filled.

Strongs does not provide the exhaustive meaning or range of the word. I am not bound to that limited definition. But what is that material? Is it refering to the "amount" or to the "quality" of said material or vessel?

"Jesus is the fullness of God", is that a quantitative or qualitative statement? Both?
Paul uses πλήρωμα to refer to the substance of God that resides in Jesus. Paul is certainly being quantitative with that statement, but is likely also being "quantitative" as well.

TDNT

The first sense of plḗrōma is 'that which fills,' 'contents,' including, e.g., cargo, crew, population....

...The idea of what fills yields such senses as 'entirety,' 'mass,' 'totality,' 'full measure,' 'consummation,' also 'crowd' (of people)....

...We also find the sense 'what is filled' for a fully laden ship. ...

...meaning is 'the act of filling.....

...plḗrōma has the sense of content or totality, e.g., the sum of the qualities that constitute something

The BDAG also cites quantitative and qualitative uses. This isn't even debated by Greek grammarians. Many of words in english as well as greek can be used is quantitative or qualitative ways.

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[Van]

Strongs does not provide the exhaustive meaning or range of the word. I am not bound to that limited definition. But what is that material? Is it refering to the "amount" or to the "quality" of said material or vessel?

"Jesus is the fullness of God", is that a quantitative or qualitative statement? Both?
Paul uses πλήρωμα to refer to the substance of God that resides in Jesus. Paul is certainly being quantitative with that statement, but is likely also being "quantitative" as well.

TDNT

The first sense of plḗrōma is 'that which fills,' 'contents,' including, e.g., cargo, crew, population....

...The idea of what fills yields such senses as 'entirety,' 'mass,' 'totality,' 'full measure,' 'consummation,' also 'crowd' (of people)....

...We also find the sense 'what is filled' for a fully laden ship. ...

...meaning is 'the act of filling.....

...plḗrōma has the sense of content or totality, e.g., the sum of the qualities that constitute something

The BDAG also cites quantitative and qualitative uses. This isn't even debated by Greek grammarians. Many of words in english as well as greek can be used is quantitative or qualitative ways.

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You provided nothing to support your view. The TDNT supports my view. That which fills and what is filled.

Jesus is filled with God, no doubt about it!

 

[McCree79]

1) ) Another possible interpretation is "fullness"refers to the restoration of the "diminishment." Thus the riches to the world will be greater.

Possible,
But that requires a "qualitative" rendering(KJV) of hēttēma, vs the "quantitative" (ESV, NASB,CSB) failure, loss or defeat.

Another word that can have quantitative or qualitative implications [emoji16]

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[McCree79]

You provided nothing to support your view. The TDNT supports my view. That which fills and what is filled.

Jesus is filled with God, no doubt about it!

...sum of qualities....it isn't just about quantity at times.



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[McCree79]

.

Jesus is filled with God, no doubt about it!

Absolutely but in what sense? Quantitative or qualitative?

It is qualitative. For the son is God in substance, but he not Yahweh in is quantitative fullness. Jesus is not the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. He is Yahweh is substance (quality), not in quantity.


*Edit: The Oness/Unitarian would argue it is quantitative.


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[Van]

Possible,
But that requires a "qualitative" rendering(KJV) of hēttēma, vs the "quantitative" (ESV, NASB,CSB) failure, loss or defeat.

Another word that can have quantitative or qualitative implications [emoji16]
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Both views are supported by well known translations, once again indicating your claim of grammatical support is flawed.

 

[Van]

...sum of qualities....it isn't just about quantity at times.
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Nonsense

 

[Van]

Absolutely but in what sense? Quantitative or qualitative?

It is qualitative. For the son is God in substance, but he not Yahweh in is quantitative fullness. Jesus is not the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. He is Yahweh is substance (quality), not in quantity.

*Edit: The Oness/Unitarian would argue it is quantitative.
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You need to look at all the verses that use fullness to describe Christ, love and grace are what Christ is full of.

Romans 15:29, fullness refers to the blessings Christ bestows.
Ephesians 3:19 we are filled with both love and knowledge from God.
Ephesians 4:13 when we mature and become Christ-like we have the fullness of Christ.
Colossians 2:9 all the fullness of God dwells in Christ.

 

[McCree79]

Both views are supported by well known translations, once again indicating your claim of grammatical support is flawed.

Yes both views are supported. That is the point. Some take it quantitative and others qualitative.

You just said in one post both grammatical views are supported, which true, then you immediately claim my view that both are supported is flawed. You fully contradicted yourself in 18 words.

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[McCree79]

You need to look at all the verses that use fullness to describe Christ, love and grace are what Christ is full of.

Romans 15:29, fullness refers to the blessings Christ bestows.
Ephesians 3:19 we are filled with both love and knowledge from God.
Ephesians 4:13 when we mature and become Christ-like we have the fullness of Christ.
Colossians 2:9 all the fullness of God dwells in Christ.

Deflection. Is that quantitative or qualitative?

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[Van]

Yes both views are supported. That is the point. Some take it quantitative and others qualitative.

You just said in one post both grammatical views are supported, which true, then you immediately claim my view that both are supported is flawed. You fully contradicted yourself in 18 words.

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Unable to keep from laughing, your view is contrary to truth. Your you, you you posts change the subject for the purpose of deflection.

 

[Van]

Deflection. Is that quantitative or qualitative?

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Obfuscaton on display. Why muddy the waters when the truth is crystal, "fullness" when used in scripture refers to what fills the container, be it a vessel or person.

You need to look at all the verses that use fullness to describe Christ, love and grace are what Christ is full of.

Romans 15:29, fullness refers to the blessings Christ bestows.
Ephesians 3:19 we are filled with both love and knowledge from God.
Ephesians 4:13 when we mature and become Christ-like we have the fullness of Christ.
Colossians 2:9 all the fullness of God dwells in Christ.

 

[Van]

Two of the verses where "fullness" appears, use the term in connection with time or times.

Galatians 4:4
But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law,

Ephesians 1:10
with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth.

Here the idea is that at the time of God's choosing, God then takes action. Some translations go with "when the time is right, or the time is ripe. In Ephesians 1:10 "times" might be better translated eras or end times.

A possible improvement might be "when God's chosen time came" and "suitable to the fulfillment of end times,"

 

[Van]

Romans 11:25 NASB
25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;

25) The mystery or previously unrevealed truth is that a hardening of the unbelieving Jews will remain until the outreach caused by the hardening has had its intended or full affect on the Gentiles.

 

[Van]

Ephesians 1:23 NASB
which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.

Here we yet another verse so vague many translations differ significantly.

1) Which is His body? Here the "which" refers to the church or those called into the kingdom and indwelt with the Spirit of Christ.

2) The fullness of Him, again must refer something Christ bestows upon those called out.

3) Who fills all in all says everyone called out is filled with the Spirit of Christ and His many many blessings.

 

[Van]

Fullness then refers usually to what fills an entity, whether the content is a divine attribute (the fullness of Deity) or something God bestows on others (unconditional love, knowledge and the like). Usually the bestowal is positive, i.e. blessings, but seems also to refer to the removal of hardening which of course is also a blessing.

 

[Shoostie]

Romans 11:25 NASB
25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;

25) The mystery or previously unrevealed truth is that a hardening of the unbelieving Jews will remain until the outreach caused by the hardening has had its intended or full affect on the Gentiles.

In Romans 11:25, "Fullness" means full inclusion, rather than the futurist doctrine that there's a gentile quota to meet. "full affect" works, but is vague.

"Fullness" is adequate in that it's a literal translation, leaving us with the context to know what it means.

We can take fullness of time to mean when the time was right.