Is God a Failure?

[Tom Butler]

[SIZE=+1]I ran across this quote in an article by John Reisenger, in which he quoted a theology professor named Noel Smith, whom he described as a godly Baptist, but one who hated Calvininism:
[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]Knowing God as I do through the revelation He has given me of Himself in His Word, when I am told that God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance, I know it means that the Triune God has done, is doing, always will do, all that the Triune God can do to save every man, woman, and child on this earth.[/SIZE]

I surmise that most, if not all, non-Calvinists will agree with Professor Smith here.

Now, do you agree with what he said next:

[SIZE=+1]What is hell? It is infinite negation. It is infinite chaos. And it is more than that. I tell you, and I say it with profound reverence, hell is a ghastly monument to the failure of God to save the multitudes that are there. I say it reverently, I say it with every nerve in my body tense; sinners go to hell because God Himself cannot save them. He did all He could. He failed.[/SIZE]

Dr. Reisenger says Professor Smith is an honest Arminian, and that no other conclusion is possible if Professor Smith's view of II Peter 3:9 is correct.

So, did God fail? Opinions, please.

 

[Amy.G]

No. God doesn't fail. People do.

 

[OldRegular]

[SIZE=+1]I ranacross this quote in an article by John Reisenger, in which he quoted a theology professor named Noel Smith, whom he described as a godly Baptist, but one who hated Calvininism:
[/SIZE]

I surmise that most, if not all, non-Calvinists will agree with Professor Smith here.

Now, do you agree with what he said next:


Dr. Reisenger says Professor Smith is an honest Arminian, and that no other conclusion is possible if Professor Smith view of II Peter 3:9 is correct.

So, did God fail? Opinions, please.

No God can not fail. All those that Jesus Christ died to redeem will be saved eternally. Jesus Christ Himself states in John 6:37-39:

37. All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38. For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39. And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

That is a straightforward expression of God's election of some to salvation. Jesus Christ is expressing through the Apostle John the same truth that he expressed through the Apostle Paul when he wrote in Romans 8:28-30:

28. And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

However, Reisenger is correct! According to Arminian theology God can fail. That is the great flaw in Arminian theology.

 

[Tom Butler]

John 6:37
All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

So then, can it be said that those who will not come are those whom God has not given to the Son?

Or,asked another way, all those whom God has not given to the Son will not come?

Another question: If God does not give them to the Son, can they come anyway?

 

[preachinjesus]

[SIZE=+1]theology professor named Noel Smith, whom he described as a godly Baptist, but one who hated Calvininism:

[/SIZE]

this has nothing to do with the OP, frankly I don't get into Calvinism vs. Arminianism, but how is it one can be considered godly and hate other Christians? I just don't get it...

 

[Steven2006]

I would like to read professor Smiths message in it's entirety to understand the full context of the quotes.

 

[Tom Butler]

[/size][/size][/font]

this has nothing to do with the OP, frankly I don't get into Calvinism vs. Arminianism, but how is it one can be considered godly and hate other Christians? I just don't get it...

John Reisenger said Smith hated Calvinism, not Calvinists. Seems to me he's no different from a lot of godly Baptist Board posters.

 

[Tom Butler]

I would like to read professor Smiths message in it's entirety to understand the full context of the quotes.

Me, too. I gave all that Dr. Reisinger quoted. That's the reason I couched my comments in the form of questions rather than flat statements.

 

[John Toppass]

I too, would like to read professor Smith's message in it's entirety. I can only assume he is wrong or used a very poor choice of words.

God loves all of mankind and knows that we can not enter His Kingdom on any works that we do. He sent his Son to die for the sins of all.

We only have to choose to accept Jesus Christ as our personal Saviour to join God, our Father, in His Kingdom for eternity.

That was God's plan! He wants fellowship and worship from those who choose His plan. God is so powerful that he could have made us without choice and unable to sin.

Some say that only a few are able to accept Jesus Christ and that has already been predestined. The God that I know through His word is not limited by His own predestination. My God wants all of us to choose His Kingdom. He has provided only one way for us to enter His Kingdom. But, He wants only those who knowingly choose to follow his plan of the acceptance of His Son as our Lord and Saviour. The choice is ours and ours alone. That is why we were made in God's image.

God did not fail, man has failed, and God knew this would happen. That is why He made provisions for us. The choice is ours and ours alone. Any other misleading belief would put limits the power of God and his perfect plan. Bottom line, God wants worship from those of us who choose to worship Him. God wants our unforced LOVE.

 

[Jon-Marc]

No, God did not fail. He provided a way for EVERYONE to be saved, but unfortunately many will not accept that way. They reject God, His Son, His forgiveness, His salvation, and all that He offers them just for the asking in humbleness and repentance. That's the problem--people won't humble themselves. They expect God to accept them just as they are without expecting any change in their behavior. "You can have God's forgiveness and hang onto your sin." However, God says just the opposite. He says to "Come unto me all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest." He does not say "Come unto me and hang unto your sins."

 

[OldRegular]

John 6:37
All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

So then, can it be said that those who will not come are those whom God has not given to the Son?

Or,asked another way, all those whom God has not given to the Son will not come?

Another question: If God does not give them to the Son, can they come anyway?

I could give an answer to each of your questions which you may or may not accept. I suggest you answer each of them in the context of the Scripture you presented. Other Scripture that may be helpful are as follows:

John 6:44. No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:65. And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

The 6th chapter of the Gospel of John can provide the answer to your questions.

 

[Me4Him]

I could give an answer to each of your questions which you may or may not accept. I suggest you answer each of them in the context of the Scripture you presented. Other Scripture that may be helpful are as follows:

John 6:44. No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:65. And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

The 6th chapter of the Gospel of John can provide the answer to your questions.

If it's not God's will for any to perish, and none come except God calls them,

Then in order for God to keep his word, God would be "OBLIGATED" to call all.

or they would perish by God's "UN-willingness" to call them.

and that would put God in the position of doing what scripture says is impossible for God, lie.

Mt 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

 

[OldRegular]

If it's not God's will for any to perish, and none come except God calls them,

Then in order for God to keep his word, God would be "OBLIGATED" to call all.

or they would perish by God's "UN-willingness" to call them.

and that would put God in the position of doing what scripture says is impossible for God, lie.

Mt 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

I would suggest that you study Scripture until you arrive at the correct doctrine of the Sovereignty of God in Salvation. I have found that it is next to impossible to change anyone's mind regarding their doctrine of Salvation.

 

[Benjamin]

[SIZE=+1]I ran across this quote in an article by John Reisenger, in which he quoted a theology professor named Noel Smith, whom he described as a godly Baptist, but one who hated Calvininism:
[/SIZE]

I surmise that most, if not all, non-Calvinists will agree with Professor Smith here.

Now, do you agree with what he said next:


Dr. Reisenger says Professor Smith is an honest Arminian, and that no other conclusion is possible if Professor Smith's view of II Peter 3:9 is correct.

So, did God fail? Opinions, please.

I’ve seen this slur come up many times in C/A debate as I would imagine Tom Butler has also. Yet, I have never heard of ANYONE, especially someone who holds to a non-Calvinist position with a knowledgeable theological background, suggest that God has failed in His plan of salvation.

Frankly, this seems to be nothing less than a ploy presented in the OP which I suspect is knowingly meant to form a misrepresented conclusion against the common belief of non-Calvinist or Arminians by attempting to take advantage of some rhetoric situation. I’ll spare my speculations about the motive.

For the benefit of anyone who is NOT familiar with this shameful type of typical Calvinistic dogma, the typical non-Calvinist/non-Determinist believes God’s salvation plan is perfectly righteous and is true and just for all, whosoever believes, and does not condone the belief that God has failed in His plan. As a matter of fact, I seriously doubt even one non-Calvinist here would agree with this suggestion from the OP, or other’s that would revel in this ploy, that God fails, and I’m quite confident the opposition is aware of this fact.

Why don’t you post the link where you got this Butler; because I would like to see exactly who said what and the actual context?

 

[MB]

[SIZE=+1]I ran across this quote in an article by John Reisenger, in which he quoted a theology professor named Noel Smith, whom he described as a godly Baptist, but one who hated Calvininism:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]
[/SIZE]

I surmise that most, if not all, non-Calvinists will agree with Professor Smith here.

Now, do you agree with what he said next:


Dr. Reisenger says Professor Smith is an honest Arminian, and that no other conclusion is possible if Professor Smith's view of II Peter 3:9 is correct.

So, did God fail? Opinions, please.[/quote]

No God didn't fail. He did do all He could to save the whole world. What maybe you don't see is that if God just saved everyone before they believed He would never have the true Love of Man. If you take a man and save him before faith, trust, and conviction in his heart. What you have is an ungreatful man in Heaven. He got Salvation while still hating God. Why not keep on hating Him? If you gave everything to your own child and never saying no. Do you really believe He would love you for it? If so what happens when you can't give anymore?

Man will never Love God, like a man who came to believe in Him first, Realizing just how blessed he really is because, God could see in His heart and know his faith and conviction. That his belief wasn't just a passing fancy but, was grounded on God's word. This is why Eph 2;8 says, Grace is through faith. Indeed if Grace is through faith then no man trully has saving grace until he has saving faith.

Is this works for Salvation? No it isn't but, men cannot be saved with out faith. Faith is a gift (again as in Eph 2:8) We receive faith through the hearing of the word and the word is the work of God. Our hearing it through the preacher is the work of God. Being drawn is the work of God. The conviction is the work of God. What makes men repent doesn't originate with man but with God. What made me repent was my conviction. It took me to my knees begging Christ to forgive me. How Can Calvinist call this a works for Salvation when every act I did was caused by God's works. I was convinced, Convicted, and they both drove me to my knees.

Man is an undeserving sinner there is no doubt but he isn't unable to hear or understand the gospel. If this were so King Aggrippa could not have been almost convinced. I believe God opens men's heart's but this is not regeneration but is the results of the work of God alone. He open Agrippa's heart but Agrippa rebeled. This is our only choice rebellion.

Now, do you agree with what he said next:


Dr. Reisenger says Professor Smith is an honest Arminian, and that no other conclusion is possible if Professor Smith's view of II Peter 3:9 is correct.

So, did God fail? Opinions, please.

Dr Reisenger Is very presumptious;
God is not a failure, man is the failure. And Hell is a miserable place to spend eternity because, Hell is being with out God for all eternity. We all have God's blessings while in this life. In Hell there is no more blessings and what is worse I believe those in Hell are all alone with no one to console them in there misery.
MB

 

[Tom Butler]

I’ve seen this slur come up many times in C/A debate as I would imagine Tom Butler has also. Yet, I have never heard of ANYONE, especially someone who holds to a non-Calvinist position with a knowledgeable theological background, suggest that God has failed in His plan of salvation.

Nor have I. That's why I posted it.

Frankly, this seems to be nothing less than a ploy presented in the OP which I suspect is knowingly meant to form a misrepresented conclusion against the common belief of non-Calvinist or Arminians by attempting to take advantage of some rhetoric situation. I’ll spare my speculations about the motive.

My motive was to stimulate discussion.

For the benefit of anyone who is NOT familiar with this shameful type of typical Calvinistic dogma, the typical non-Calvinist/non-Determinist believes God’s salvation plan is perfectly righteous and is true and just for all, whosoever believes, and does not condone the belief that God has failed in His plan.

You are correct. I've never heard a non-Calvinist suggest that God has failed. That's why I posted the quote, because it is so unusual.

As a matter of fact, I seriously doubt even one non-Calvinist here would agree with this suggestion from the OP, or others that would revel in this ploy, that God fails, and I’m quite confident the opposition is aware of this fact.

It wasn't a ploy.

hy don’t you post the link where you got this Butler; because I would like to see exactly who said what and the actual context?

I'll have to search for it. When I find it, I'll post it. It was from the website of a guy who thinks Billy Graham is going to hell. And so, he suggests, are most of us.

 

[Tom Butler]

Okay, I've found it. First, an explanation of how I got there.

I went to James White's website Alpha and Omega Ministries, where I read a response he made to Marc Carpenter, whose website is Outside the Camp. While there, I noticed a link to the Heterodoxy Hall of Shame. Among those he has consigned to Hell are Billy Graham, C. H. Spurgeon and the man I mentioned in the OP, John Reisinger.

Here's the Reisinger link, where you'll find the Noel Smith quotes:

http://www.outsidethecamp.org/heterodoxy42.htm


Since I've brought up Marc Carpenter, you might want to read what James White says about him:

http://www.aomin.org/aoblog/index.php?itemid=256

 

[Tom Butler]

Let me add that I agree with all my non-Cal brothers and sisters, God did not fail.

When I read Professor Noel Smith's comment (See the OP), my first thought was, I had never heard a non-Calvinist hold that position.

So, I decided to post them and get reaction.

I will have to confess though, that the thought did run through my mind, "they're going to come unglued when they see this," and I also confess that i did chuckle at the thought.

But my original motive was pure, simply to stimulate discussion. It certainly did that.

 

[LaymansTermsPlease]

John 12:32 ASV: And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto myself.

If it's not God's will for any to perish, and none come except God calls them,

Then in order for God to keep his word, God would be "OBLIGATED" to call all.

 

[webdog]

I would suggest that you study Scripture until you arrive at the correct doctrine of the Sovereignty of God in Salvation. I have found that it is next to impossible to change anyone's mind regarding their doctrine of Salvation.

So from such a statement, let me be the first to congratulate you on your "arrival" of unwavering truth :applause:

I'm glad you now have it all figured out!