Is God Able To regenerate sinners before their faith in Christ?

Well brother, I'm glad to hear that you're not yelling because that would be impolite. wouldn't it?

Let's look at these texts in their proper size. They're easier to read that way.

Isaiah 55:3 Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David.

John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

Now how do dead people come to life? Well, generally speaking, they don't, do they? Look, Lazarus is dead (John 11). He's been in the tomb four days. How are we going to bring him back to life. Well, we can preach to him. We can tell him how dreadful it is to be dead and how much nicer it is to be alive. We can warn him of the consequences of not coming to life. We can shout at him, we can plead with him, we can jump up and down. But it won't do any good. He's dead you see. And to quote Long John Silver's parrot, Dead men don't bite. Nor do they hear, nor do they do anything else. They're dead.

It's actually even worse than that. Between you and me, Lazarus is a bit of a stinker (John 11:39). He's in a bad odour with God; he's not just dead, but dead in trespasses and sins. He is, 'By nature [a child] of wrath' (Eph 2:3).

So how is Lazarus going to come back to life? You and I can't make him and he surely can't do it himself. Nothing else but the Almighty power of God can bring him out of his tomb, when the Lord Jesus Christ cries, "Lazarus, Come forth!" That is how the dead hear the voice of the Son of God; when God Himself opens the dead hearts of sinners to hear that voice, and when they hear, they believe and are saved.

I could put this text in great big letters, but I won't. I'm sure you can read it without.

'But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we wre dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ' (Eph 2:4-5). We didn't make ourselves alive. God made us alive. 'For we are His workmonship' (v10); not our own.

Steve

 

Jesus did not say the living shall hear his voice, and they (the living) that hear shall live. That wouldn't even make sense.

No, Jesus said the DEAD shall hear his voice, and they (the dead) that hear SHALL live.

The spiritually dead are not like a lifeless corpse as you compare them. The rich man in hell in Luke 16 could see, feel torments, and HEAR. He carried on a conversation with Abraham who was over in paradise. And this is where Lazarus was after he physically died, he was in "Abraham's bosom" which was the paradise section of hell at that time. When Jesus cried for Lazarus to come forth, Lazarus heard Jesus and returned to his dead body.

The dead can hear, they are not like a corpse. Their body is lifeless, but their soul is very functional.

 

Spiritual death is not the same as physical death. What is death? It is seperation. Here's proof. Physical death is the soul's departure from the body. Spiritual death is us seperated from God because of our sins.

Now, if our soul is dead spiritually, the same way our physical body is dead with the soul leaves it, then we are dead. Our soul within us is what causes our heart to beat, our lungs in deflate/inflate, our brain to keep functioning. As soon as the soul leaves the body, the heart stops, the lungs quit breathing, and the brain ceases to function. So, if our soul is dead identically as our physical body is, then it's dead, gone, outta here, flatlined, etc. Even the rich man in hell, it was still alive/functioning, because he could feel the torment of the flames, he could Lazarus in Father Abraham's bosom, and he could hear Father Abraham speak to him. And apparently he could taste, because he desired just one little drop of water. He was/is dead, but he could hear.

As I showed you in those previous verses in my last post, hearing is what brings life, not life brings hearing.

 

Though my last post is a wee bit lengthier than yours, Bro. Winman, our posts are almost verbatim.

Brother Steve, I pray that you took no offense to the big bold words......

 

Howbeit that [was] not first which is spiritual, but that which (1) is natural; and afterward that which (2) is spiritual.

What does is natural mean in that verse?
What does is spiritual mean in that verse?

And as we have (3) borne the image of the earthy, we shall also (4) bear the image of the heavenly.

What is the image of the earthy spoken of in that verse?
What is the image of the heavenly spoken of in that verse?

For this (5) corruptible must put on (6) incorruption, and this (7) mortal [must] put on (8) immortality.

A. That which is born of the flesh is flesh;
B. That which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Which numbers above correspond to A.?
Which numbers above correspond to B.?


Was Jesus the Christ born of the flesh as in corruptible flesh and blood?
Is Jesus the Christ today, corruptible flesh and blood or is he
flesh and bone incorruptible?

Does he today have the sure mercies of David? When were they given to him?

 

I would venture to say that Jesus is speaking about Him going to the cross to die(the Jews, and satan, would rejoice in thinking they had destroyed Jesus, and the Disciples would be sad due to His death), and that when He was risen that third morning, He would accomplish the Father's will(woman giving birth to her baby, NT church), and the Disciples would rejoice when they saw Jesus alive again.

 

The natural is our flesh, the spiritual our soul.

Adam and Jesus.

Here is where the mortal flesh becomes a spiritual being, in the fashion of Jesus' most glorious body.

Jesus was born in the flesh, which is correct. But was it corruptible? I am not sure how YOU would define corruptible. Sure, He experienced pain, anguish, hunger, thirstiness, etc, just like us. But there was no sin in His flesh.

When He came out of the tomb, He defeated satan, death and grave. What do you mean about the sure mercies of David? He is seated on the right hand of the Father now, if that's what you call the Mercy seat. Please elaborate on this post of yours some more, and maybe I can give you more deatil, okay??

 

It is more helpful to understand the context of your quotations than to write them in big letters. No offense taken, however.

John 6:52. 'The Jews therefore quarrelled among themselves, saying, "How can this man give us His flesh to eat?"'

John 6:60, 65-66. 'Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this, said, "This is a hard saying. Who can understand it?".......And He said, "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father." From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more.'

These people could not understand our Lord's words because they were spritually dead. Even those who were initially attracted to Him turned away from His teaching because they had not got ears to hear. 'But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned' (1Cor 2:14). The Jews of our Lord's day could not understand, know, receive the things that He spoke because they were spiritually dead.

Yes, faith comes by hearing; of course it does. But unless God, by His Almighty power, gives ears to hear, no one will do so. "Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given" (Matt 13:11).

Steve

 

They were following a crowd like most people they were not listen and learning from the Father through the words of Jesus from the beginning of their following Jesus they were just following the crowd. We are all spiritual dead rejecting the words of Jesus.

It is only those who listen and learn not listen only and reject His words.

Luke 10:21
At that time Jesus, full of joy through the Holy Spirit, said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this is what you were pleased to do.

John 6:45
It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.

John 6:63
The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit and life.

John 14:24
Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.

Romans 10:17
Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ.

1 Peter 1:23
For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

John 6:68
Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.

1 John 1:1
[ The Incarnation of the Word of Life ] That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched—this we proclaim concerning the Word of life.2 The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us. 3 We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ. 4 We write this to make our[Some manuscripts your] joy complete.

Without the words of Jesus you have no life in you, following a crowd does not mean you have life.

 

Still at it I see Winman. Will you always grieve the Holy Spirit?

 

Welcome back Old Regular. Yes, I am still defending what I believe is scriptural truth. The scriptures NEVER teach that a person is made spiritually alive in order to have the ability to believe, the scriptures teach the exact opposite, that if we receive Jesus and believe on his name, then and only then does God give us the power to BECOME a son of God (Jn 1:12).

If a person is regenerated before faith, that person would be a born again SINNER, as we are justified by faith. It is impossible to be spiritually alive while we are still in all our trespasses and sins.

We had a fellow post about two weeks ago that he was born of the Spirit LONG BEFORE (his words) he ever heard the gospel and believed on Jesus. This would mean he was a born again SINNER, still spiritually dead in all his sins for a long period of time. Sproul also teaches this is possible. This is impossible, and doesn't even make sense.

You cannot be spiritually alive until you believe and your sins are forgiven. Regeneration follows faith, not precedes it as Calvinism falsely teaches.

 

Still begging the question?

 

I would say you are correct. When he died they would be very sad. And after the third day they would rejoice for his resurrection would be as that of a new baby for he would be the firstborn from the dead.

Jesus the prophet himself was comparing his resurrection to a birth.

Jesus the natural, earthy,subject to corruption,made a little lower than the angels, flesh and blood, living soul as was his figure/type, Adam, died and his disciples were sad and after three days and three nights of death he became the firstborn from the dead, a quickening spirit.
The first born of woman to be born again of Spirit.

His regeneration allowed his shed blood to wash away our sins. For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: And if Christ be not raised, your faith [is] vain; ye are yet in your sins. 1 Cor. 15:16,17

 

Yes he does-------at his resurrection

The sure mercies of David given to the Christ his seed.
Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. His soul was not left in hell and neither his flesh did see corruption; though he was subject to it.
Acts 13:34 And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David.

 

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by percho View Post
Howbeit that [was] not first which is spiritual, but that which (1) is natural; and afterward that which (2) is spiritual.

What does is natural mean in that verse? natural birth, water broke came forth flesh
What does is spiritual mean in that verse? spirit birth come forth as spirit

And as we have (3) borne the image of the earthy, we shall also (4) bear the image of the heavenly.

What is the image of the earthy spoken of in that verse? Born in the image of the first man Adam.
What is the image of the heavenly spoken of in that verse? Shall be born in the image of the last Adam the resurrected Jesus, conformed to his image

For this (5) corruptible must put on (6) incorruption, and this (7) mortal [must] put on (8) immortality.

A. That which is born of the flesh is flesh;
B. That which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Which numbers above correspond to A.? 1, 3, 5, 7
Which numbers above correspond to B.? 2, 4, 6, 8


Was Jesus the Christ born of the flesh as in corruptible flesh and blood? yes
Is Jesus the Christ today, corruptible flesh and blood or is he
flesh and bone incorruptible? flesh and bone incorruptible spirit

Does he today have the sure mercies of David? When were they given to him?
Yes he does-------at his resurrection

The sure mercies of David given to the Christ his seed.
Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. His soul was not left in hell and neither his flesh did see corruption; though he was subject to it.
Acts 13:34 And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David.

 

I realize the following is a late response but the answer to your question is clearly presented in Scripture.

Not only can He but He must. Study Ephesians 2:1-10, John 3:3f, Romans 8:28-30.

 

"If I am to preach the faith in Christ to a man who is regenerated, then the man, being regenerated, is saved already, and it is an unnecessary and ridiculous thing for me to preach Christ to him, and bid him to believe in order to be saved when he is saved already, being regenerate. Am I only to preach faith to those who have it? Absurd, indeed! Is not this waiting till the man is cured and then bringing him the medicine? This is preaching Christ to the righteous and not to sinners."

Charles Spurgeon

 

Do we really know what faith is?

FAITH, WHAT IS IT?

WHAT IS THIS FAITH concerning which it is said, "By grace are ye saved, through faith?" There are many descriptions of faith; but almost all the definitions I have met with have made me understand it less than I did before I saw them. The Negro said, when he read the chapter, that he would confound it; and it is very likely that he did so, though he meant to expound it. We may explain faith till nobody understands it. I hope I shall not be guilty of that fault. Faith is the simplest of all things, and perhaps because of its simplicity it is the more difficult to explain.
What is faith? It is made up of three things—knowledge, belief, and trust. Knowledge comes first. "How shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard?" I want to be informed of a fact before I can possibly believe it. "Faith cometh by hearing"; we must first hear, in order that we may know what is to be believed. "They that know thy name shall put their trust in thee." A measure of knowledge is essential to faith; hence the importance of getting knowledge. "Incline your ear, and come unto me; hear, and your soul shall live." Such was the word of the ancient prophet, and it is the word of the gospel still. Search the Scriptures and learn what the Holy Spirit teacheth concerning Christ and His salvation. Seek to know God: "For he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him." May the Holy Spirit give you the spirit of knowledge, and of the fear of the Lord! Know the gospel: know what the good news is, how it talks of free forgiveness, and of change of heart, of adoption into the family of God, and of countless other blessings. Know especially Christ Jesus the Son of God, the Saviour of men, united to us by His human nature, and yet one with God; and thus able to act as Mediator between God and man, able to lay His hand upon both, and to be the connecting link between the sinner and the Judge of all the earth. Endeavour to know more and more of Christ Jesus. Endeavour especially to know the doctrine of the sacrifice of Christ; for the point upon which saving faith mainly fixes itself is this— "God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them." Know that Jesus was "made a curse for us, as it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree." Drink deep of the doctrine of the substitutionary work of Christ; for therein lies the sweetest possible comfort to the guilty sons of men, since the Lord "made him to be sin for us, that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." Faith begins with knowledge.
The mind goes on to believe that these things are true. The soul believes that God is, and that He hears the cries of sincere hearts; that the gospel is from God; that justification by faith is the grand truth which God hath revealed in these last days by His Spirit more clearly than before. Then the heart believes that Jesus is verily and in truth our God and Saviour, the Redeemer of men, the Prophet, Priest, and King of His people. All this is accepted as sure truth, not to be called in question. I pray that you may at once come to this. Get firmly to believe that "the blood of Jesus Christ, God's dear Son, cleanseth us from all sin"; that His sacrifice is complete and fully accepted of God on man's behalf, so that he that believeth on Jesus is not condemned. Believe these truths as you believe any other statements; for the difference between common faith and saving faith lies mainly in the subjects upon which it is exercised. Believe the witness of God just as you believe the testimony of your own father or friend. "If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater."
So far you have made an advance toward faith; only one more ingredient is needed to complete it, which is trust. Commit yourself to the merciful God; rest your hope on the gracious gospel; trust your soul on the dying and living Saviour; wash away your sins in the atoning blood; accept His perfect righteousness, and all is well. Trust is the lifeblood of faith; there is no saving faith without it. The Puritans were accustomed to explain faith by the word "recumbency." It meant leaning upon a thing. Lean with all your weight upon Christ. It would be a better illustration still if I said, fall at full length, and lie on the Rock of Ages. Cast yourself upon Jesus; rest in Him; commit yourself to Him. That done, you have exercised saving faith. Faith is not a blind thing; for faith begins with knowledge. It is not a speculative thing; for faith believes facts of which it is sure. It is not an unpractical, dreamy thing; for faith trusts, and stakes its destiny upon the truth of revelation. That is one way of describing what faith is.
Let me try again. Faith is believing that Christ is what He is said to be, and that He will do what He has promised to do, and then to expect this of Him. The Scriptures speak of Jesus Christ as being God, God is human flesh; as being perfect in His character; as being made of a sin-offering on our behalf; as bearing our sins in His own body on the tree. The Scripture speaks of Him as having finished transgression, made an end of sin, and brought in everlasting righteousness. The sacred records further tell us that He "rose again from the dead," that He "ever liveth to make intercession for us," that He has gone up into the glory, and has taken possession of Heaven on the behalf of His people, and that He will shortly come again "to judge the world in righteousness, and his people with equity." We are most firmly to believe that it is even so; for this is the testimony of God the Father when He said, "This is my beloved Son; hear ye him." This also is testified by God the Holy Spirit; for the Spirit has borne witness to Christ, both in the inspired Word and by divers miracles, and by His working in the hearts of men. We are to believe this testimony to be true.
Faith also believes that Christ will do what He has promised; that since He has promised to cast out none that come to Him, it is certain that He will not cast us out if we come to Him. Faith believes that since Jesus said, "The water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everasting life, it must be true; and if we get this living Water from Christ it will abide in us, and will well up within us in streams of holy life. Whatever Christ has promised to do He will do, and we must believe this, so as to look for pardon, justification, preservation, and eternal glory from His hands, according as He has promised them to believers in Him.
Then comes the next necessary step. Jesus is what He is said to be, Jesus will do what He says He will do; therefore we must each one trust Him, saying, "He will be to me what He says He is, and He will do to me what He has promised to do; I leave myself in the hands of Him who is appointed to save, that He may save me. I rest upon His promise that He will do even as He has said." This is a saving faith, and he that hath it hath everlasting life. Whatever his dangers and difficulties, whatever his darkness and depression, whatever his infirmities and sins, he that believeth thus on Christ Jesus is not condemned, and shall never come into condemnation.
May that explanation be of some service! I trust it may be used by the Spirit of God to direct my reader into immediate peace. "Be not afraid; only believe." Trust, and be at rest.
My fear is lest the reader should rest content with understanding what is to be done, and yet never do it. Better the poorest real faith actually at work, than the best ideal of it left in the region of speculation. The great matter is to believe on the Lord Jesus at once. Never mind distinctions and definitions. A hungry man eats though he does not understand the composition of his food, the anatomy of his mouth, or the process of digestion: he lives because he eats. Another far more clever person understands thoroughly the science of nutrition; but if he does not eat he will die, with all his knowledge. There are, no doubt, many at this hour in Hell who understood the doctrine of faith, but did not believe. On the other hand, not one who has trusted in the Lord Jesus has ever been cast out, though he may never have been able intelligently to define his faith. Oh dear reader, receive the Lord Jesus into your soul, and you shall live forever! "He that believeth in Him hath everlasting life."

Source: “All of Grace” Charles H Spurgeon

I do not mind repeating Spurgeon so many come and go and come back.

 

Spurgeon on Regeneration or "The New Birth"

And now we must say, that regeneration consists in this. God the Holy Spirit, in a supernatural manner—mark, by the word supernatural I mean just what it strictly means; supernatural, more than natural—works upon the hearts of men, and they by the operations of the divine Spirit become regenerate men; but without the Spirit they never can be regenerated. And unless God the Holy Spirit, who "worketh in us to will and to do," should operate upon the will and the conscience, regeneration is an absolute impossibility, and therefore so is salvation. "What!" says one, "do you mean to say that God absolutely interposes in the salvation of every man to make him regenerate?" I do indeed; in the salvation of every person there is an actual putting forth of the divine power, whereby the dead sinner is quickened, the unwilling sinner is made willing, the desperately hard sinner has his conscience made tender; and he who rejected God and despised Christ, is brought to cast himself down at the feet of Jesus. This is called fanatical doctrine, mayhap; that we can not help; it is scriptural doctrine, that is enough for us. "Except a man be born of the Spirit he can not see the kingdom of God; that which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." If you like it not, quarrel with my Master, not with me; I do but simply declare his own revelation, that there must be in your heart something more than you can ever work there. There must be a divine operation; call it a miraculous operation, if you please; it is in some sense so. There must be a divine interposition, a divine working, a divine influence, or else, do what you may, without that you perish, and are undone; "for except a man be born again, be can not see the kingdom of God." The change is radical; it gives us new natures, makes us love what we hated and hate what we loved, sets us in a new road; makes our habits different, our thoughts different, makes us different in private, and different in public. So that being in Christ it is fulfilled: "If any man be in Christ he is a new creature; old things are passed away, behold all things are become new."

Charles Spurgeon: http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/0130.htm

 

Spurgeon gets right to the point:

"Only God can work this miracle, but mark you this, there never was a soul, yet, that truly believed in Christ, but at the same time it underwent the change called the new birth or regeneration. Christians have often been asked about which is first, faith or regeneration, belief in Christ or being born again. I will tell you, when you answer me this question—When a wheel moves, which spoke moves first? “Oh, they all start together!” you say. So these other things all start together, whether it is the hub of the wheel, which is regeneration, or the spokes of the wheel, which are faith, repentance, hope, love and so on—when the wheel moves, it all moves at once!" —"Despised Light Withdrawn"