Is God Able To regenerate sinners before their faith in Christ?

[psalms109:31]

I believe we might be saying the same thing. Yes "faith" is a noun, but there is no such thing as faith without there being an exercise of faith. It is like the word "hunger", that is also a noun, but hunger doesn't exist unless one is hungry.

Does that make sense?

So, you can't simply possess faith unless you are exercising faith, just as you can't possess hunger without being hungry.

You cannot have something without knowing you have a need, Faith a noun that comes from God through Jesus Christ. The faith we have put our trust and belief in can't happen without first knowledge that comes from God through the words of Jesus. I did not wake up one day and had faith in God through Jesus, faith come as an object through the words about Jesus. I exercised belief and trust in this faith.

 

[Winman]

Well, then, I'm a rogue Calvinist because my answer would be the same as Paul's. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. The same as Paul's on Mars Hill. Repent. The same as Peter's on Pentecost Day. Repent.

I don't believe my answers conflict with Calvinism. My marching orders are not to seek out the elect. They are to declare the terms of entry into the kingdom. As Jesus said, "my sheep hear my voice." Those whom the Father has given to the Son will come to Him.

God does not save independently of the gospel.

If this puts me at odds with Calvinism, so be it. I don't think it does.

Acts 2:39 For this promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Peter was speaking to a large audience, 3000 were saved that day. Could you tell a large crowd that God's promise applied to every one of them as Peter did?

Does God mock men by promising to save them if they believe, when only he can determine who believes? Is this a sincere promise?

That would be like telling a man he is free to leave his jail cell when only I have the key and have no intention of unlocking it. All he has to do is walk out. That would be nothing but cruelty and mockery.

 

[Winman]

You cannot have something without knowing you have a need, Faith a noun that comes from God through Jesus Christ. The faith we have put our trust and belief in can't happen without first knowledge that comes from God through the words of Jesus. I did not wake up one day and had faith in God through Jesus, faith come as an object through the words about Jesus. I exercised belief and trust in this faith.

No, you had knowledge of Jesus. You did not have faith until you chose to trust him.

This is why Jesus said those, who have heard, learned and been taught (knowledge) by the Father come (believe/faith) to him.

Jesus always used action words to describe saving faith. He said it is coming to him, he said it is drinking the water, it is opening the door, it is calling upon him, it is taking the water of life... I could go on and on. You cannot have saving faith until you exercise it.

Jesus didn't say he that simply has belief shall be saved, he said whosoever believeth (verb) shall be saved.

Now, AFTER a person came to Jesus and believed (verb), then Jesus said thy faith (noun) hath saved thee.

 

[psalms109:31]

No, you had knowledge of Jesus. You did not have faith until you chose to trust him.

This is why Jesus said those, who have heard, learned and been taught (knowledge) by the Father come (believe/faith) to him.

Jesus always used action words to describe saving faith. He said it is coming to him, he said it is drinking the water, it is opening the door, it is calling upon him, it is taking the water of life... I could go on and on. You cannot have saving faith until you exercise it.

Jesus didn't say he that simply has belief shall be saved, he said whosoever believeth (verb) shall be saved.

Now, AFTER a person came to Jesus and believed (verb), then Jesus said thy faith (noun) hath saved thee.

You are emphasizing one thing I believe about faith and saying I am wrong, go back and read Spurgeon of what faith is.

 

[Winman]

You are emphasizing one thing I believe about faith and saying I am wrong, go back and read Spurgeon of what faith is.

I did read Spurgeon, he said that saving faith is trusting (verb) Jesus, it is casting (verb) ourselves upon him. Go back and read for yourself.

Simply believeing a doctor can remove your brain tumor will not save you, you must actually trust him by allowing him to put you asleep and operate on you to save you.

And salvation is similar, Jesus compared himself to a physician. The lepers had to come to Jesus before he healed them, they had to exercise faith. If they allowed him to walk by and did not come to him, they would not have been healed.

Biblical faith is not agreeing to a fact, it is trusting Jesus to save you.

The lepers being healed represents regeneration. They had to first believe (verb) to be healed.

 

[psalms109:31]

I am trying to make myself clearer to you as i did in my last post we do not exersize faith with a noun that we have gotten through the words of Jesus and words about Him, we exersize in this faith in Jesus by belief and trust.

I can't make it any clearer may God bless you,

 

[Winman]

I am trying to make myself clearer to you as i did in my last post we do not exersize faith with a noun that we have gotten through the words of Jesus and words about Him, we exersize in this faith in Jesus by belief and trust.

I can't make it any clearer may God bless you,

And I am trying to show you that you cannot have faith in a vacuum, just as you cannot have hunger unless you are hungry. You cannot have desire unless you want something. You want to argue over nouns and verbs, unless you believe (verb) on Jesus you will not be saved.

 

[psalms109:31]

I believe in three stages of faith as Spurgeon as said.

If I never hear the Gospel of my salvation to exercise belief and trust in the faith, the saving faith I will be condemned also.

May God bless you

 

[OldRegular]

Believe what you want Old Regular, time will tell.

You cannot respond can you Winman? I have shown Scripture that you said did not exist, Scripture that I have shown many times in the past.

I have posed a question on logic that you cannot answer. The incarnation and the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ for sinful man defies man's logic, and that is the truth. Of course the "BIG I" believing somehow that he is deserving of salvation will assert that everything is logical.

Finally Winman, if I could believe what I wanted I would; and I did at one time believe the "BIG I" had a part in my salvation. At one time in my Christian walk the "BIG I" believed much like you do. However, Scripture properly understood, and with submission to and guidance by the Holy Spirit, will no longer permit me to believe as I once did and as you now do.

Salvation is only by the Grace of God and He will bring all His elect to salvation in His own time and in His own way! I will praise Him now and in eternity for His Grace!

 

[Winman]

Old Regular, Ephesians 2 refutes you and supports me, but you will not accept this.

Vs. 1 says God quickened us when we were dead in trespasses and sins. Do you believe that this is teaching you were walking around as a quickened, born again sinner before you believed? Absurd.

No, vs. 5 says we were quickened "with Christ". You cannot be "in Christ" until you believe.

You just don't get it, until you believe you are dead in trespasses and sins. Even Calvinists admit we are justified, forgiven our sins by faith.

You cannot be quickened, spiritually alive, born again while you are still dead in your trespasses and sins. Only after you believe and your sins washed away can you be spiritually alive.

It's not that I can't refute you with scripture, I easily can. But I already know from the past that you are "sold out" to Calvinism and will not listen. It is a waste of time and energy.

 

[Winman]

I believe in three stages of faith as Spurgeon as said.

If I never hear the Gospel of my salvation to exercise belief and trust in the faith, the saving faith I will be condemned also.

May God bless you

It is true you cannot believe in Jesus unless you have knowledge of him, I have always said this. But this is not faith, many atheists know the Bible says Jesus is the Son of God, died for our sins and rose again and mock it. They have knowledge, but they don't apply faith toward it. This is exactly what Hebrews warns about. These folks were "enlightened", but they fell away in unbelief.

Faith is an action, it is a choice to trust something or someone. You may "believe" a bridge is safe to drive over, but that is not placing faith in the bridge. You have to actually drive over it to do that.

I understand what you are saying, but the faith that simply agrees with a truth will not save you, you have to come to Christ and personally trust him to be saved.

There are folks that will tell you they heard and understood the gospel for years, but were not willing to trust Jesus. This kind of faith won't save you, and I do not believe God considers it faith.

 

[OldRegular]

Old Regular, Ephesians 2 refutes you and supports me, but you will not accept this.

You are absolutely incorrect Winman. Ephesians 2 tells us that while we were still in our sins God made us alive through no action on our part. I realize the BIG I can't accept this but it is what Scripture teaches.

Vs. 1 says God quickened us when we were dead in trespasses and sins.

You read it correctly but the BIG I will not let you accept that truth.

No, vs. 5 says we were quickened "with Christ". You cannot be "in Christ" until you believe.

I make it a practice not to argue with Scripture.

You just don't get it, until you believe you are dead in trespasses and sins.

Winman, Can a person who is physically dead do anything? Neither can one who is spiritually dead!

Even Calvinists admit we are justified, forgiven our sins by faith.

Justification is not the same as forgiveness of sin!

You cannot be quickened, spiritually alive, born again while you are still dead in your trespasses and sins.

Winman, I refer you to Ephesians 2:1 which you referenced earlier. You see that you are disputing Scripture but that is the problem with devout Arminians, the BIG I group!

It's not that I can't refute you with scripture, I easily can.

You really can't Winman unless you throw certain passages out of the Bible. You understand that no one who believes Scripture as I do will discard any Scripture that deals with faith. Yet you are perfectly content to discard those Scripture that show regeneration is an act of God by Grace alone. With that regeneration man is given the gift of FAITH.

But I already know from the past that you are "sold out" to Calvinism and will not listen. It is a waste of time and energy.

Winman you must work hard at being wrong. I am not a Calvinist. I simply believe what Scripture teaches. If Calvin believed and taught the same truths then he is certainly blessed because he believed God!

 

[psalms109:31]

It is true you cannot believe in Jesus unless you have knowledge of him, I have always said this. But this is not faith, many atheists know the Bible says Jesus is the Son of God, died for our sins and rose again and mock it. They have knowledge, but they don't apply faith toward it. This is exactly what Hebrews warns about. These folks were "enlightened", but they fell away in unbelief.

Faith is an action, it is a choice to trust something or someone. You may "believe" a bridge is safe to drive over, but that is not placing faith in the bridge. You have to actually drive over it to do that.

I understand what you are saying, but the faith that simply agrees with a truth will not save you, you have to come to Christ and personally trust him to be saved.

There are folks that will tell you they heard and understood the gospel for years, but were not willing to trust Jesus. This kind of faith won't save you, and I do not believe God considers it faith.

I am glad and praise God that you trusted and believed in Jesus your faith and I do not disagree for us having to that, but trust and belief is an action faith is the noun the object of our belief and trust. Faith is not a action a verb.

We can play tennis with this, but i do not think it will accoplish nothing if we don't see faith the same way.

 

[Winman]

I am glad and praise God that you trusted and believed in Jesus your faith and I do not disagree for us having to that, but trust and belief is an action faith is the noun the object of our belief and trust. Faith is not a action a verb.

We can play tennis with this, but i do not think it will accoplish nothing if we don't see faith the same way.

Well, I don't think you read Spurgeon carefully enough. I will show excerpts from that sermon you posted.

1. Let us begin, then, at the beginning. The first thing in faith is knowledge. A man cannot believe what he does not know. That is a clear, self-evident axiom.

But if you read along, he shows this is not faith.

2. But a man may know a thing, and yet not have faith. I may know a thing, and yet not believe it. Therefore assent must go with faith: that is to say, what we know we must also agree unto, as being most certainly the verity of God.

This is what I tried to tell you. Knowledge is not faith. But wait, assent to the truth is not faith either, read on.

3. But a man may have all this, and yet not possess true faith; for the chief part of faith lies in the last head, namely, in an affiance to the truth; not the believing it merely, but the taking hold of it as being ours, and in the resting on it for salvation. Recumbency on the truth was the word which the old preachers used. You will understand that word. Leaning on it; saying, "This is truth, I trust my salvation on it." Now, true faith, in its very essence rests in this—a leaning upon Christ. It will not save me to know that Christ is a Saviour; but it will save me to trust him to be my Saviour.

This is what I tried to tell you. Believeing a fact about Jesus is not faith in the biblical sense. Biblical faith is trust, it is leaning upon, trusting upon, depending upon Jesus alone to save you. If you have not done this, you do not have true faith in Jesus.

 

[Iconoclast]

You are absolutely incorrect Winman. Ephesians 2 tells us that while we were still in our sins God made us alive through no action on our part. I realize the BIG I can't accept this but it is what Scripture teaches.

You read it correctly but the BIG I will not let you accept that truth.


I make it a practice not to argue with Scripture.



Winman, Can a person who is physically dead do anything? Neither can one who is spiritually dead!

Justification is not the same as forgiveness of sin!

Winman, I refer you to Ephesians 2:1 which you referenced earlier. You see that you are disputing Scripture but that is the problem with devout Arminians, the BIG I group!

You really can't Winman unless you throw certain passages out of the Bible. You understand that no one who believes Scripture as I do will discard any Scripture that deals with faith. Yet you are perfectly content to discard those Scripture that show regeneration is an act of God by Grace alone. With that regeneration man is given the gift of FAITH.


Winman you must work hard at being wrong. I am not a Calvinist. I simply believe what Scripture teaches. If Calvin believed and taught the same truths then he is certainly blessed because he believed God!

Bravo Old regular...:applause::applause::applause::thumbsup:

 

[psalms109:31]

I have not disagreed for the nessesity of our belief and trust in faith.

This faith all comes in one object Jesus and every word that comes from His mouth. I am to believe and trust in Jesus who is my faith, before Him I had no object of saving faith.

Faith isn't what we do, it isn't an action, but a noun a object.

We first get the knowledge then we believe and trust in the one who brings us our faith, trust lean on the finished work of Jesus.

I have listened to what he said, but we know faith is the most simpilist thing that men try to confuse it is most important that we trust and depend on Jesus. He is the object of my knowledge, belief and trust, knowledge that comes from Jesus and His word and belief and trust that comes from us to His word. God does not need to believe and trust in Himself.

 

[psalms109:31]

C.H. Spurgeon once said:

"It is ever the Holy Spirit's work to turn our eyes away from self to Jesus; but Satan's work is just the opposite of this, for he is constantly trying to make us regard ourselves instead of Christ. He insinuates, “Your sins are too great for pardon; you have no faith; you do not repent enough; you'll never be able to continue to the end; you have not the joy of His children; you have such a wavering hold on Jesus.” All these are thoughts about self, and we will never find comfort or assurance by looking within. But the Holy Spirit turns our eyes entirely away from self: He tells us that we are nothing, but that “Christ is all in all.” Remember, therefore, it is not your hold on Christ that saves you — it is Christ; it is not your joy in Christ that saves you — it is Christ; it is not even faith in Christ, though that be the instrument — it is Christ's blood and merits; therefore, look not so much to your hand with which you are grasping Christ, as to Christ; look not to your hope, but Jesus, the source of your hope — look not to your faith, but to Jesus, the author and finisher of your faith. We will never find happiness by looking at our prayers, our doings, or our feelings; it is what Jesus is, not what we are, that gives rest to the soul. If we would at once overcome Satan and have peace with God, it must be by “looking unto Jesus.” Keep your eye simply on Him; let His death, His sufferings, His merits, His glories, His intercession, be fresh on your mind; when you wake in the morning look to Him; when you lie down at night look to Him. Oh! let not your hopes or fears come between you and Jesus; follow hard after Him, and He will never fail you."

 

[percho]

I have not disagreed for the nessesity of our belief and trust in faith.

This faith all comes in one object Jesus and every word that comes from His mouth. I am to believe and trust in Jesus who is my faith, before Him I had no object of saving faith.

Faith isn't what we do, it isn't an action, but a noun a object.

We first get the knowledge then we believe and trust in the one who brings us our faith, trust lean on the finished work of Jesus.

I have listened to what he said, but we know faith is the most simpilist thing that men try to confuse it is most important that we trust and depend on Jesus. He is the object of my knowledge, belief and trust, knowledge that comes from Jesus and His word and belief and trust that comes from us to His word. God does not need to believe and trust in Himself.

You are correct 109. Faith is a noun. And there was a time when the faith was not and then was. The Faith came when the seed of promise the seed of Abraham the Christ DIED and received the inheritance of the promise. Abraham died not having received the promise and is still dead. Jesus died was resurrected and the faith came.

That is faith the Galatians heard of by which they received the Spirit.

The resurrected Jesus the Christ is the Faith that was revealed?

Someone can correct me if I am wrong but I believe that is what Gal. 3:2-24 says.

26-29 says that by having received the Spirit by the hearing of Faith we are baptized into Christ, having put on Christ, being begotten of God and made heirs as the seed of Abraham through Christ.

As I said correct me where I am wrong.

 

[psalms109:31]

You are correct 109. Faith is a noun. And there was a time when the faith was not and then was. The Faith came when the seed of promise the seed of Abraham the Christ DIED and received the inheritance of the promise. Abraham died not having received the promise and is still dead. Jesus died was resurrected and the faith came.

That is faith the Galatians heard of by which they received the Spirit.

The resurrected Jesus the Christ is the Faith that was revealed?

Someone can correct me if I am wrong but I believe that is what Gal. 3:2-24 says.

26-29 says that by having received the Spirit by the hearing of Faith we are baptized into Christ, having put on Christ, being begotten of God and made heirs as the seed of Abraham through Christ.

As I said correct me where I am wrong.

:applause: :thumbsup:
I think what you wrote here is beautiful.

Psalm 62:
5 Yes, my soul, find rest in God;
my hope comes from him.
6 Truly he is my rock and my salvation;
he is my fortress, I will not be shaken.
7 My salvation and my honor depend on God[Or / God Most High is my salvation and my honor];
he is my mighty rock, my refuge.
8 Trust in him at all times, you people;
pour out your hearts to him,
for God is our refuge.

Matthew 11:29
Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.

 

[agedman]

Is it impossible for the Arminian thinker not to hold "faith" as something they generate?

Is not ultimate end of the Arminian thinking complete rejection of the Christ of the cross, the blood atonement, and everlasting hell in favor of self righteousness?

For the Calvinist, it is God that gives the "measure of faith" and not a man generated expression.

For the Calvinist, the scriptures clearly teach that man in his natural state cannot even receive anything of the character and nature of God.

The natural man, upon hearing the teachings and preachings of the Scriptures, will have NO desire other than what is nature driven such as:

> for peace (if family or friends pressure a decision),

> or business (if joining and acting out in agreement will bring further business contacts),

> or self interest (if making a decision will mean gaining power),

> or any of the many other reasons someone is "saved" and yet will spend eternity in hell.