Is God Able To regenerate sinners before their faith in Christ?

[Martin Marprelate]

God has never, nor will He ever, regenerate anyone, until that one repents of the attitute of not desiring to be born of the Spirit, and changes their attitude to one of acceptance of, and desire for that new birth through faith and faith alone..

Pelagius would be proud of this! What about Rom 3:11? 'For there is none who understands; there is none who seeks after God.' If God waited for folk to repent and 'desire' the New Birth, then no one would ever be saved. Fortunately, '....It is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy' (Rom 9:16).

Steve

 

[convicted1]

Pelagius would be proud of this! What about Rom 3:11? 'For there is none who understands; there is none who seeks after God.' If God waited for folk to repent and 'desire' the New Birth, then no one would ever be saved. Fortunately, '....It is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy' (Rom 9:16).

Steve

Okay Brother, how long can a baby live outside of the mother's womb, i.e. atmosphere? What I am driving at is this: How long can a new born baby live outside the womb after this "new birth"?

That's what is getting pushed around in here. Y'all are saying that regeneration(new birth) precedes being born again/born from above(new life). How long does it take a new born baby to come alive after it leaves the mother's birthing canal? Is it seconds, minutes, days, months, or years?

 

[Martin Marprelate]

No one will come to God until He first draw them. Jesus spoke with many, and though they were sinners, He healed them of their infirmities. This is how they are saved.

Jesus spoke with all sorts of people when He was on the earth, but only a few responded. We ourselves may preach to thousands, but unless God opens their hearts to respond, they will not do so. They're dead, you see, and dead people don't respond, due to their unfortunate condition of death.

The hour is coming, and now is, that the dead shall hear the voice of God [sic], and they that hear, shall live."

It is the voice of the Son of God that the dead will hear, but let that pass.

Jesus did not say that the living shall hear and live, which is completely backwards of what He said. But most on here hold this as an absolute truth, which is absolutely false.

You are missing the point spectacularly. Dead people do not hear. They don't do anything. They're dead, you see. They will not repond to our preaching, our tract distribution, wayside pulpits, well-placed Gideon Bibles, nothing at all. But when the Lord Jesus Christ calls, He and He alone gives life to dead sinners. Like Lazarus, they repond to His life-giving call.

Just because one is spiritually dead, doesn't mean their soul is a lifeless corpse.

Er...yes it does. What else can it mean? That is why the Bible calls them dead. It could have said that they were ill, or jolly unwell, in trespasses and sins, but it doesn't. It says they are dead. 'The dead know nothing at all' (Eccl 9:5). And the spiritually dead will not respond at all to spiritual things (1Cor 2:14 again!), just because they are spiritually dead. Christ, and He alone, breaks through that, and the dead are raised to spiritual life. :jesus:

Steve


Steve

 

[Iconoclast]

Iconoclast...

Now you are slandering me. Congratulations.

I clearly said in my 1st post...



...and you respond to that by calling me a gnostic.

Please stop it. Behave like an adult.

Thank you.

As I suspected,,,,no scripture once again. Your quote was error,No one sees it as you said....you claim you have come to this from scripture.
You offer no scripture because this idea you posted cannot be supported by scripture....it is unbiblical....

here is your error once again;

Originally Posted by Alive in Christ
God has never, nor will He ever, regenerate anyone, until that one repents of the attitute of not desiring to be born of the Spirit, and changes their attitude to one of acceptance of, and desire for that new birth through faith and faith alone..

you put conditions upon God'

God has never, nor will He ever, regenerate anyone, until

God does whatsoever he pleases......He makes the unwilling, willing in the day of His power. I know that you cannot offer a verse.....so...of course I am not being adult , as you say. sure aic.....

 

[OldRegular]

.He makes the unwilling, willing

Don't know whether you have heard the discussion between Patterson and Mohler on election but Mohler uses a phrase similar to the above in his discussion!

 

[Alive in Christ]

Iconoclast...

Here is some excellant material for you. And besides what I am posting, if you click the link you will find much much more...some of wich is in numerous PDF files.

Calvinists clearly add to what Scripture states regarding humanity’s depravity and God’s grace. Although unregenerate people are indeed, “dead in [their] trespasses and sins,” hundreds (if not thousands) of scriptures clearly state or imply that spiritually dead people can choose to humble themselves and repent, especially while they are under the influence of the gracious drawing of God’s Spirit.

God’s drawing, however, never forces anyone to repent, nor does it change anyone’s will apart from the consent of his heart.
Although Scripture repeatedly decries the sinful state of humanity, at the same time it calls on all people to repent; thus it is obvious that all spiritually dead people still have the capacity to repent. For example, Paul publicly proclaimed, “Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all everywhere should repent” (Acts 17:30, emphasis added).

If Paul believed that people were so depraved that they had no capacity to repent, he would not have said that God was calling all people everywhere to repent, unless he was a deceiver. Moreover, if it were impossible for spiritually dead people to repent, God would be unrighteous to expect all of them to do what they are incapable of doing and then hold them guilty for not doing it.


Like Paul, John the Baptist, Jesus, and all the other apostles preached the gospel, calling on all people to repent (see Matt.3:2; 4:17; 11:20; Mark 6:12; Luke 5:32; 13:3, 5; 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 11:18; 20:21; 26:20; Rom. 2:4: 2 Pet. 3:9). Several times in the book of Revelation, John is amazed that unregenerate people don’t repent while suffering God’s judgments (see Rev. 9:20-21; 16:9, 11). Jesus pronounced woe upon all the people of Chorazin and Bethsaida because they didn’t repent, obviously indicating He believed they had the capacity to repent (see Matt. 11:21).

He also declared that the wicked people of Tyre and Sidon, who didn’t repent, would have repented if they had seen miracles like the people of Chorazin and Bethsaida had seen! In both cases, Jesus believed that those who didn’t repent had the capacity to repent and should have repented, in contrast to Calvinists, who believe unregenerate people have no capacity to repent outside of God changing their wills and forcing them to repent (which He only does for some). Thus, Calvinism portrays Jesus as a liar and a deceiver, because Jesus gave all indication that people could do what He knew full well they couldn’t do. This also makes God the Father a liar, as Jesus only spoke His words (see John 12:49).

http://www.heavensfamily.org/ss/calvinism/calvinism-total-depravity-and-irresistible-grace

 

[OldRegular]

Y'all are saying that regeneration(new birth) precedes being born again/born from above(new life). How long does it take a new born baby to come alive after it leaves the mother's birthing canal? Is it seconds, minutes, days, months, or years?

Regeneration is the "new birth", the "born from above", the "born again".

 

[JesusFan]

Iconoclast...

Here is some excellant material for you. And besides what I am posting, if you click the link you will find much much more...some of wich is in numerous PDF files.





http://www.heavensfamily.org/ss/calvinism/calvinism-total-depravity-and-irresistible-grace

Do you deny that we ALL are found in Adam by God, that we have imputed towards our account His sin/curse/judgement, and that ONLY by being found in Christ can have spiritual life again?

 

[Alive in Christ]

Do you deny that we ALL are found in Adam by God, that we have imputed towards our account His sin/curse/judgement, and that ONLY by being found in Christ can have spiritual life again?

Of course I do not deny that. That is a perfectly true statement.


Where I have problems with Calvinism is the teaching that men and women have no inherant ability to choose God/Jesus/the Gosple...and all of the false teachings that naturally flow from that faulty starting point.

The idea that God gives saving faith in Christ the "lucky" ones, while choosing to withhold it from the "unlucky" ones turns all of us into robots.

The scriptures make clear that men and women have a choice to make regarding salvation/loss of salvation

 

[Iconoclast]

Iconoclast...

Here is some excellant material for you. And besides what I am posting, if you click the link you will find much much more...some of wich is in numerous PDF files.





http://www.heavensfamily.org/ss/calvinism/calvinism-total-depravity-and-irresistible-grace

AIC,
Thanks for posting the quote and the link....this is a much better attempt at a response than what was previously posted. I will read it over and respond.

 

[Iconoclast]

Don't know whether you have heard the discussion between Patterson and Mohler on election but Mohler uses a phrase similar to the above in his discussion!

ORB....
Yes... psalm 110:3 is a most wonderful truth.....I am the last person who would have been willing to believe.......but God who is rich in mercy!

Al Mohler has never failed to sound a clear trumpet sound of the gospel.
He stands in the public arena, Tv , radio, and does not shrink back from the issues! I do not know everything he teaches...but everytime I hear him so far, I like how he presents the claims of Christ to a dying world...

 

[Iconoclast]

AIC,
I am looking over the first article and at first i was hopeful that maybe the writer would offer some biblically sound ideas...but before long i found much that needed correction......than i found this :

In summary, the Calvinist makes God a lying, deceiving, bigoted, malicious, unjust, confused hypocrite who is responsible for the world’s evil and who creates people for the expressed purpose of torturing them forever. If any man did the things Calvinists say God does, every person on the earth would rightly consider that man worthy of immediate execution, and certainly not worthy to be worshiped. Who is really robbing God of glory? Is it the non-Calvinist who says that man must yield to God’s Spirit using his God-given free will in order to be saved, or is it the Calvinist, who turns God into a monster?

This is pathetic....as well as most of the first article. I have saved this to my favorites file as an example of biblical ignornace and rebellion against God.
This man and any others who deride the God of the bible ,,,dismissing Him as the calvinist God.....are in danger of perishing in unbelief....

Look how he describes God

a lying, deceiving, bigoted, malicious, unjust, confused hypocrite who is responsible for the world’s evil and who creates people for the expressed purpose of torturing them forever

who turns God into a monster?

[/QUOTE]
This wicked filth can only be cleansed if God in mercy saves this person.
There is alot on this site.....but I can only handle so much wickedness at one time...I feel like I need to shower after reading this disgusting article by this mis-lead person.
To unravel all of it would have to be done in person with open bibles..I type too slow to correct all of his vile ideas.

 

[Alive in Christ]

Iconoclast...

I have not read the parts you quoted.

Apparently, he definetly speaks his mind, doesnt he! (reminds me of a few biblical passages, btw)


Considering the subject matter he is critiquing, its probably warranted

 

[psalms109:31]

Matthew 4:4
Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.’ ”

Jeremiah 23:
16 This is what the LORD Almighty says:

“Do not listen to what the prophets are prophesying to you;
they fill you with false hopes.
They speak visions from their own minds,
not from the mouth of the LORD.
17 They keep saying to those who despise me,
‘The LORD says: You will have peace.’
And to all who follow the stubbornness of their hearts
they say, ‘No harm will come to you.’
18 But which of them has stood in the council of the LORD
to see or to hear his word?
Who has listened and heard his word?
19 See, the storm of the LORD
will burst out in wrath,
a whirlwind swirling down
on the heads of the wicked.
20 The anger of the LORD will not turn back
until he fully accomplishes
the purposes of his heart.
In days to come
you will understand it clearly.
21 I did not send these prophets,
yet they have run with their message;
I did not speak to them,
yet they have prophesied.
22 But if they had stood in my council,
they would have proclaimed my words to my people
and would have turned them from their evil ways
and from their evil deeds.

1 Peter 1
22 Now that you have purified yourselves by obeying the truth so that you have sincere love for each other, love one another deeply, from the heart.[Some early manuscripts from a pure heart] 23 For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God. 24 For,

“All people are like grass,
and all their glory is like the flowers of the field;
the grass withers and the flowers fall,
25 but the word of the Lord endures forever.”[Isaiah 40:6-8 (see Septuagint)]
And this is the word that was preached to you.
1 Peter 2

1 Therefore, rid yourselves of all malice and all deceit, hypocrisy, envy, and slander of every kind. 2 Like newborn babies, crave pure spiritual milk, so that by it you may grow up in your salvation, 3 now that you have tasted that the Lord is good.

Deuteronomy 32
47 They are not just idle words for you—they are your life. By them you will live long in the land you are crossing the Jordan to possess.”

Proverbs 4:4
Then he taught me, and he said to me, “Take hold of my words with all your heart; keep my commands, and you will live.

Jeremiah 26:
12 Then Jeremiah said to all the officials and all the people: “The LORD sent me to prophesy against this house and this city all the things you have heard. 13 Now reform your ways and your actions and obey the LORD your God. Then the LORD will relent and not bring the disaster he has pronounced against you.

 

[Alive in Christ]

Iconoclast...

Look how he describes God

Quote:
a lying, deceiving, bigoted, malicious, unjust, confused hypocrite who is responsible for the world’s evil and who creates people for the expressed purpose of torturing them forever

Quote:
who turns God into a monster?

Well, you slandered me earlier, and now you slander him.

You are on a roll.

That writer DID NOT say those things about God, and you know it.

He was clearly saying that in his view that is how CALVINISM depicts God.

 

[marke]

How can you make someone spiritually alive who is still dead in all their trespasses and sins?

Your sins are not forgiven until you believe. Therefore you can not be spiritually alive until you first believe. It is sin itself that makes you spiritually dead, the wages of sin is death. Until your sins are removed through faith you cannot possibly be spiritually alive.

If Jesus does not give them light, then there is no hope for them. The good news is that Jesus the True Light that lightens everyone (John 1). The bad news is that everyone does not believe and receive the light they have clearly seen (Rom. 1), but whosoever will believe and receive the Light will be given the power to become the sons of God (John 1 & 3).

 

[convicted1]

Jesus spoke with all sorts of people when He was on the earth, but only a few responded. We ourselves may preach to thousands, but unless God opens their hearts to respond, they will not do so. They're dead, you see, and dead people don't respond, due to their unfortunate condition of death.

It is the voice of the Son of God that the dead will hear, but let that pass.
You are missing the point spectacularly. Dead people do not hear. They don't do anything. They're dead, you see. They will not repond to our preaching, our tract distribution, wayside pulpits, well-placed Gideon Bibles, nothing at all. But when the Lord Jesus Christ calls, He and He alone gives life to dead sinners. Like Lazarus, they repond to His life-giving call.


Er...yes it does. What else can it mean? That is why the Bible calls them dead. It could have said that they were ill, or jolly unwell, in trespasses and sins, but it doesn't. It says they are dead. 'The dead know nothing at all' (Eccl 9:5). And the spiritually dead will not respond at all to spiritual things (1Cor 2:14 again!), just because they are spiritually dead. Christ, and He alone, breaks through that, and the dead are raised to spiritual life. :jesus:

Steve


Steve

Context, son, context. If the soul is dead the same way a lifeless corpse is, then that person is "flat-lined". The soul is what keeps our physical body alive, you know, heart beating, lungs inhaling/exhaling, brain doing it's work, etc. The physical body dies when the soul leaves, but the soul itself is never dead(or better yet, non-functioning). Here is something I read this evening that will prove my point of the dead hearing:

John 5:28,29
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.


Jesus' voice is so powerful, that the bodies of those that have been dead for centuries will hear His voice when He calls them out of the grave. So if the lifeless corpse/pile of dust, can hear His voice, then the unregenerated soul can as well.

Question for you? Is there life outside of Jesus Christ?

 

[convicted1]

Regeneration is the "new birth", the "born from above", the "born again".

Two questions for you, Brother.

Can someone be regenerated and Not saved?

Is there life outside of Jesus Christ?

 

[Iconoclast]

Iconoclast...




Well, you slandered me earlier, and now you slander him.

You are on a roll.

That writer DID NOT say those things about God, and you know it.

He was clearly saying that in his view that is how CALVINISM depicts God.

AIC....
The calvinist worships the God of the bible. His wicked denial of God cloaked under his supposed study is a direct attack upon the true and living God.

In other words......this writer and several people on BB have declared this same wicked idea.......it comes down to this.....they say...I could not worship a God who does what you say he does.....If God has elected some...I could not and would not worship such a God. that means they invent their own little god who does what they want, rather than the biblical God who has revealed Himself.
I believe any who make such a statement need to repent.
The fact that you did not even read the article you yourself linked, shows a low regard for truth.
So.....again....I thought you were trying, but this article is a ruse to avoid answering the other post s where I asked you to back your statements with scripture.....you cannot...so again...I am at fault ....sure AIC.....
How can you expect to taken seriously in a discussion if you do not even read your own link? very lame.

 

[convicted1]

Okay Brother, how long can a baby live outside of the mother's womb, i.e. atmosphere? What I am driving at is this: How long can a new born baby live outside the womb after this "new birth"?

That's what is getting pushed around in here. Y'all are saying that regeneration(new birth) precedes being born again/born from above(new life). How long does it take a new born baby to come alive after it leaves the mother's birthing canal? Is it seconds, minutes, days, months, or years?

Will someone/anyone please address this???