Is God just?

[Herald]

The word "just" has to do with being morally right or good. The word "justice" is acting in accordance with being just; in other words doing that which is morally right or good. In a past thread a veteran poster on this board suggested that Calvinists ignore the justice of God. This is not a Calvinist debate thread; rather it is a discussion on whether God is just and practices justice.

In the Pentateuch we see the word "justice" most commonly used in a legal context. Some examples:

Exodus 23:6 "You shall not pervert the justice due to your needy brother in his dispute."

Deuteronomy 16:19-20 "You shall not distort justice; you shall not be partial, and you shall not take a bribe, for a bribe blinds the eyes of the wise and perverts the words of the righteous. Justice, and only justice, you shall pursue, that you may live and possess the land which the LORD your God is giving you."

Deuteronomy 24:17 "You shall not pervert the justice due an alien or an orphan, nor take a widow's garment in pledge."

God will always do that which is right or just. He will reward the innocent and punish the guilty. It is no different in salvation. The innocent are those who have been born again. The guilty are those who die in their sins. God will reward those who have been born again with eternal life. The guilty will be punished in the lake of fire for eternity. That, my friend, is God's justice.

 

[convicted1]

The word "just" has to do with being morally right or good. The word "justice" is acting in accordance with being just; in other words doing that which is morally right or good. In a past thread a veteran poster on this board suggested that Calvinists ignore the justice of God. This is not a Calvinist debate thread; rather it is a discussion on whether God is just and practices justice.

In the Pentateuch we see the word "justice" most commonly used in a legal context. Some examples:

Exodus 23:6 "You shall not pervert the justice due to your needy brother in his dispute."

Deuteronomy 16:19-20 "You shall not distort justice; you shall not be partial, and you shall not take a bribe, for a bribe blinds the eyes of the wise and perverts the words of the righteous. Justice, and only justice, you shall pursue, that you may live and possess the land which the LORD your God is giving you."

Deuteronomy 24:17 "You shall not pervert the justice due an alien or an orphan, nor take a widow's garment in pledge."

God will always do that which is right or just. He will reward the innocent and punish the guilty. It is no different in salvation. The innocent are those who have been born again. The guilty are those who die in their sins. God will reward those who have been born again with eternal life. The guilty will be punished in the lake of fire for eternity. That, my friend, is God's justice.

Is God just? Absolutely. But remember, justice only demands one thing, the lake of fire. If all of us got justice, we'd all be punished eternally. We everyone deserve justice. But grace, that's something entirely different. God is just when He judges this world in righteousness, and renders every man according to the deeds done in the body.

 

[Tom Bryant]

I don't think you can call the saved "innocent". We are all guilty before God. We have been justified because of the death and resurrection of Christ.

 

[kyredneck]

It goes beyond innocence, 'the saved' are as righteous as Christ Himself.

 

[Herald]

I don't think you can call the saved "innocent". We are all guilty before God. We have been justified because of the death and resurrection of Christ.

I use innocent in the context of a right standing before God.

 

[Herald]

It goes beyond innocence, 'the saved' are as righteous as Christ Himself.

Absolutely! We are clothed in Christ's righteousness. When the Father sees us He sees His Son:

Colossians 3:3 For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God.

 

[Herald]

Is God just? Absolutely. But remember, justice only demands one thing, the lake of fire. If all of us got justice, we'd all be punished eternally. We everyone deserve justice. But grace, that's something entirely different. God is just when He judges this world in righteousness, and renders every man according to the deeds done in the body.

Willis, I do not disagree. The only justice we all deserve is damnation. The grace of God steps in, and through Christ's blood, makes us clean. But once we are clean it is as though we have never sinned. Since we are now in Christ, and clothed with His righteousness, the Father's just response is to lavish His favor upon us; still all of grace, for we deserve nothing apart from Christ.

 

[The Biblicist]

It is no different in salvation. The innocent are those who have been born again. The guilty are those who die in their sins. God will reward those who have been born again with eternal life. The guilty will be punished in the lake of fire for eternity. That, my friend, is God's justice.

The saved are never referred to as "innocent" and that is why we should never refer to them as such. Indeed, they are saved sinners. Remember Paul speaking in the present tense said "I am the cheif of sinnners" rather than "I am innocent." The "innocent" do not need justification or mercy or grace.

Neither are we as if we had never sinned. That is not our condition only our legal position.

 

[Van]

Innocent is used in some translation versions (NASB and ESV) to translate "akeraios" which means pure. So be innocent is to be pure or uncorrupted. As fallen men, we could not be uncorrupted, but as children of God, with our body of sin removed, we are made perfect, uncorrupted, as a new creation. Thus born again believers are "innocent." Thus we are holy and blameless (Ephesians 1:5) and blameless and innocent (Philippians 2:15).

Another word, sometimes translated (by NIV, ESV and NASB) as innocent, is hagnos which also means clean, immaculate or pure. Here the idea of being "cleaned" or made pure from fault, immaculate is found. Thus born again believers, washed by His blood are hagnos. And if we do not defile ourselves and strive to follow Christ, then we are said to be innocent or pure (hagnos) concerning our attitudes and actions, 2 Corinthians 7:11.

Thus born again believers are "innocent" and should act that way!

 

[go2church]

God is love.

 

[Herald]

The saved are never referred to as "innocent" and that is why we should never refer to them as such. Indeed, they are saved sinners. Remember Paul speaking in the present tense said "I am the cheif of sinnners" rather than "I am innocent." The "innocent" do not need justification or mercy or grace.

Neither are we as if we had never sinned. That is not our condition only our legal position.

I respectfully disagree with you.

Philippians 2:15 so that you will prove yourselves to be blameless and innocent, children of God above reproach in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you appear as lights in the world.

When Paul said in 1 Timothy 1:15, "It is a trustworthy statement, deserving full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, among whom I am foremost of all" he was not commenting on his positional state as a saint (1 Corinthians 1:2). Paul was referring to the nature of his past sins and his role in persecuting the Church.

The fact is that positionally we are innocent. Forensically we are innocent. Practically we are still sinners, but that is not how the Father views us. The Father sees us as "in the Light" and cleansed from sin.

1 John 1:5-7 This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth ; 7 but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.

The word "cleanse" in the above passage means to make clean or pure. When a sinner becomes a Christian he is made clean in the sight of God. Pure. He is innocent of sin judicially, although not pratically.

 

[Iconoclast]

5 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.

6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, The Lord Our Righteousness.

As He is perfectly just He would now use His church to reflect that just standard in the earth as law keepers[10 commandments}....That is why the law is now in our hearts,as the standard of that just condition.

 

[The Biblicist]

I respectfully disagree with you.

Philippians 2:15 so that you will prove yourselves to be blameless and innocent, children of God above reproach in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you appear as lights in the world.

Again, this verse distinguishes between what they are by condition verus position or else they would not have to "prove" anything.

When Paul said in 1 Timothy 1:15, "It is a trustworthy statement, deserving full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, among whom I am foremost of all" he was not commenting on his positional state as a saint (1 Corinthians 1:2). Paul was referring to the nature of his past sins and his role in persecuting the Church.

He does not use the past tense "was" but the present tense "am." John says you are deceived if you think you are presently without sin (1 Jn. 1:8-10). Paul in Romans 7:14 speaking of the carnal aspect of his nature said in present tense "I AM carnal(fleshly) sold under sin" and then clarifies exactly what he refers to by the personal pronoun "I" in verse 18 "that is in my flesh". I don't think you understand the more closely you walk with the Lord the more clearly you see your own shortcomings in the Light of His holiness. That is why those who walk with the Lord are more humble in regard to themselves - "I am THE CHIEF of sinners" is the expression of a godly man who sees his CONDITION in contrast to the holiness of God.

The fact is that positionally we are innocent. Forensically we are innocent. Practically we are still sinners, but that is not how the Father views us. The Father sees us as "in the Light" and cleansed from sin.

You are just repeating what I said. I said we are sinners by condition but not by position (foresnically).

1 John 1:5-7 This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth ; 7 but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.

He is not claiming we are cleansed from the presence of sin (vv. 8-10) or from the indwelling nature of sin or from the sin of omission as even when we "walk in the light" we still "come short" of sinless perfection. Indeed, as we walk in the light we can more clearly see the drastic contrast between our condition and God's holiness which humbles us.

The word "cleanse" in the above passage means to make clean or pure. When a sinner becomes a Christian he is made clean in the sight of God. Pure. He is innocent of sin judicially, although not cognitively.

Not pure from indwelling sin! Not pure from the presence of sin. Pure from the commission of sin that we confess (v. 9).

 

[Iconoclast]

God is love.

Yes he is.We also read this-

2 Speak unto all the congregation of the children of Israel, and say unto them, Ye shall be holy: for I the Lord your God am holy.

or this;
28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:

29 For our God is a consuming fire.

 

[Herald]

Again, this verse distinguishes between what they are by condition verus position or else they would not have to "prove" anything.



He does not use the past tense "was" but the present tense "am." John says you are deceived if you think you are presently without sin (1 Jn. 1:8-10). Paul in Romans 7:14 speaking of the carnal aspect of his nature said in present tense "I AM carnal(fleshly) sold under sin" and then clarifies exactly what he refers to by the personal pronoun "I" in verse 18 "that is in my flesh". I don't think you understand the more closely you walk with the Lord the more clearly you see your own shortcomings in the Light of His holiness. That is why those who walk with the Lord are more humble in regard to themselves - "I am THE CHIEF of sinners" is the expression of a godly man who sees his CONDITION in contrast to the holiness of God.

You are just repeating what I said. I said we are sinners by condition but not by position (foresnically).



He is not claiming we are cleansed from the presence of sin (vv. 8-10) or from the indwelling nature of sin or from the sin of omission as even when we "walk in the light" we still "come short" of sinless perfection. Indeed, as we walk in the light we can more clearly see the drastic contrast between our condition and God's holiness which humbles us.



Not pure from indwelling sin! Not pure from the presence of sin. Pure from the commission of sin that we confess (v. 9).

You are looking for a fight where one does not exist. As Christians we are innocent before God in regards to our sin. That is the point. We are righteous because of Christ. That was my point from the first mention of the word "innocent". There really is no need to take this down a rabbit trail that detracts from that fact.

 

[Herald]

Speaking as a minister of the Gospel, let me tell you that nothing offers the saint as much hope and encouragement then the fact that they are able to stand before God clothed in Christ's righteousness. Even though the remnant of sin remains (inasmuch as our minds still suffer the corruption of sin), the Father views us being just as righteous as His Son. I minister to a flock of people who live in the world, just as each of you does. The world is vile, evil, and opposed to our God. Many times we fall prey to the wiles of the devil and our own sinful lusts (c.f. the remnants of sin). But greater is He who in us then he who is in the world! We need that remainder constantly because the world and the devil will never stop trying to remind us otherwise.

The Father dealt justly with our sin by placing it on His Son, so that we may become without sin:

2 Corinthians 5:21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

How was the Father's act of placing the penalty for sin on His Son just? The justness of the Father's actions was in requiring payment for sin (Nahum 1:3; Ezekiel 18:20). Praise God that our sin has been removed from us and it exists no more.