Silverhair
Well-Known Member
How can you say that calvinist comes to God of his own free will when you hold to "Irresistible Grace" and "Unconditional Election" are you telling us that you could refuse to come to God?
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Is God not sovereign in a Christan's life after we are saved?
- Thread starter Revmitchell
- Start date
How can you say that calvinist comes to God of his own free will when you hold to "Irresistible Grace" and "Unconditional Election" are you telling us that you could refuse to come to God?
My belief of free will is very close to yours.
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
Yes, I believe we have discussed this before?
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
You can quit saying that I do not believe man has free will, because that isn't true.
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
I’ve explained this several times and you have yet to be able to acknowledge my position accurately, but I will try again.
I believe scripture teaches (see Roman’s 1-7) people have human will that is enslaved to sin. As such, there is no such condition as “freewill”.
God Holy Spirit intervenes in the lives of the elect (conviction, drawing, and regeneration) which frees the person’s will from the enslavement of sin and enables them to comprehend and embrace the gospel of Jesus Christ with God given faith. Such intervention results in a person coming to salvation (a right relationship with God) 100% of the time.
If you have a specific question about what I believe; without claiming I believe people are saved without faith (false accusation) or that people are robots (false accusation); I’m happy to elaborate.
Peace to you
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
Exactly. And that is why I make a distinction between free will in reality, and absolute free will. What @Silverhair wants is absolute free will but he doesn't want to call it that because he realizes it is absurd and doesn't actually exist but that would destroy his position so he digs in.
ALL of us chose to do that before God saved us!
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
But according to you calvinists man does not have a free will, except to sin. So how can you freely come to God? Your own theology denies that possibility.
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
See post #25. It it explains how a person comes to God without freewill. It is a supernatural work of God Holy Spirit.
That a human being comes into a right relationship with God is one of the greatest miracles God does.
peace to you
CalTech
Active Member
Greetings,
This is a very good question. My response will be directly to the Lord's word.
However, one thing I do desire to state is I don't know what "Reformed soteriological" teaching stands for, and I truly do not care at this point in time. I have been taught by the Lord and His Holy Spirit. I for many decades have not read anything from "Reformed Theology" or any "other" theologies that are out there.
Just me and the Lord's Word & Holy Spirit. It's all very simple really. I have learned not to run to every man for answer's, very similar to Paul's living experience with His God.
Now to the verses I do think answer's the question, The Lord's sovereignty is there from the beginning of our Faith walk with Him to the end of our walk in Him.
Php_1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:
Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
Now regarding to be kept from false doctrine here is a promise directly from the Lord:
Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
Joh 16:14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
Joh 16:15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
Jesus has promised that "Anything which keeps us "pre-occupied" from following Him in life, He shall bring about "chastisements" so He may deal with all our "little Idols" that stand in the way. He has promised to cleanse us, and He is a keeper of His Promises:
Eze 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
Eze 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Eze 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
So our Lord promises to instruct us in the way which we shall go.....He will guide us with His eye.
Psa 32:8 I will instruct thee and teach thee in the way which thou shalt go: I will guide thee with mine eye.
Psa 32:9 Be ye not as the horse, or as the mule, which have no understanding: whose mouth must be held in with bit and bridle, lest they come near unto thee.
This was a very good posting....
The Lord bless you.
In His Love....
This is a very good question. My response will be directly to the Lord's word.
However, one thing I do desire to state is I don't know what "Reformed soteriological" teaching stands for, and I truly do not care at this point in time. I have been taught by the Lord and His Holy Spirit. I for many decades have not read anything from "Reformed Theology" or any "other" theologies that are out there.
Just me and the Lord's Word & Holy Spirit. It's all very simple really. I have learned not to run to every man for answer's, very similar to Paul's living experience with His God.
Now to the verses I do think answer's the question, The Lord's sovereignty is there from the beginning of our Faith walk with Him to the end of our walk in Him.
Php_1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:
Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
Now regarding to be kept from false doctrine here is a promise directly from the Lord:
Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
Joh 16:14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
Joh 16:15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
Jesus has promised that "Anything which keeps us "pre-occupied" from following Him in life, He shall bring about "chastisements" so He may deal with all our "little Idols" that stand in the way. He has promised to cleanse us, and He is a keeper of His Promises:
Eze 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
Eze 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Eze 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
So our Lord promises to instruct us in the way which we shall go.....He will guide us with His eye.
Psa 32:8 I will instruct thee and teach thee in the way which thou shalt go: I will guide thee with mine eye.
Psa 32:9 Be ye not as the horse, or as the mule, which have no understanding: whose mouth must be held in with bit and bridle, lest they come near unto thee.
This was a very good posting....
The Lord bless you.
In His Love....
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
You really should not put your ideas on other people. As I said only God has "absolute free will" man has a God given free will. Your the one that is attached to this "absolute free will" idea.
Free will in reality has been shown to you a number of times but you just ignore those verses.
Closing your eye to the truth does not change the truth.
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
Ok so please, define "God Given Free Will"
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Your own words show you believe that the person is saved without faith. "(conviction, drawing, and regeneration) which frees the person’s will from the enslavement of sin and enables them to comprehend and embrace the gospel of Jesus Christ with God given faith."
regeneration is called the new birth Webster
The action of saving or being saved from sin, error, or evil
Oxford English Dictionary
So you have the person saved before they have faith.
Joh 16:8 "And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment;
Joh 16:9 concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me;
This is the one of two times that regeneration is used in the bible. Here we see Paul writing of the renewing of a persons soul. The other is Christ Jesus speaking of the renewing of creation. Mat_19:28
The washing of regeneration G3824 (paliggenesía) refers to the spiritual rebirth of the individual soul. The Complete Word Study Dictionary
Thayer Definition:
1) new birth, reproduction, renewal, recreation, regeneration
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
What word do you not understand?
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
How about just answer the question? How do YOU define "God Given Free Will?"
atpollard
Well-Known Member
Before we were ‘born again’, we were ‘dead’ to the things of God. Spiritual truths were unbelievable’foolishness’ to our ‘blind’ spiritual eyes. We had no ‘free will’ because our ‘natural Will’ was enslaved to sin and the world. Therefore, God had to act FIRST to draw those He loved to His Son.
Once ‘saved’ (born again or from above), we have ‘free will’ for the first time in our lives. We have an old nature (flesh) at war with a new nature (spirit). We have a Holy Spirit to lead us into ‘Truth’ … not all at once, but as God is pleased to reveal it to accomplish His purposes (like Ephesians 2:10 and Philippians 2:13). So it is our distinct ‘mind’ (that which makes us, US) and our unique HS teaching and our different stages along a journey of ‘sanctification’ that yields different doctrinal conclusions.
We “once were blind” and now we “see through a mirror, dimly”. Different opinions about what we ‘see’ are to be expected. God’s sovereignty is revealed in His ability to lead all of His sheep safely home (irrespective of their theological perfection or flaws).
That is the mark of a genuine born-again Christian, that we not only accept Jesus as our Savior but also as our Lord. As Paul said in Romans we will continue to sin but by the Grace of God we will recognize that and repent. Saved Christians will be recognized by their fruit and their love for each other and all their neighbors even their enemies.
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
My own words do no such thing.
I will type this very slowly so maybe you can comprehend…
I DO NOT. BELIEVE. A PERSON. IS. SAVED. WITHOUT FAITH!!!!!
Don’t gaslight like a troll
peace to you
George Antonios
Well-Known Member
The issue goes far beyond blessing here. A non-Calvinist believer is a heretic and heresy brings judgment. God has soverrrrrreingly determined for most of his sons therefore to be heretics worthy of judgment (I did not say that the judgment is loss of salvation). How do you explain that?
You completely avoided his question and implication.
That is precisely the core of Calvinism when you think it through. A person's mind is completely controlled by God in regard to the things of God (as all Calvinists must at least admit) which things are the subject of our discussions.
It is simply cognitively dissonant to your mind that men should be automatons, thankfully, because of the Holy Ghost in you and the scriptures, but yes, in Calvinism, all men are, in fact, less than automatons, technically.
George Antonios
Well-Known Member
When we speak of "free will" we are speaking of a lost man innate ability to believe the gospel.
When you veer away the discussion concerning free will to other matters you are obfuscating the issue.
The reality, when plumbed, is that Calvinists must logically end up believing that men are robots in all things (when not talking out of both sides of their mouth).
But for now, when it comes to believing the gospel, you teach that men are automatons.
That is not a misrepresentation at all.
When you veer away the discussion concerning free will to other matters you are obfuscating the issue.
The reality, when plumbed, is that Calvinists must logically end up believing that men are robots in all things (when not talking out of both sides of their mouth).
But for now, when it comes to believing the gospel, you teach that men are automatons.
That is not a misrepresentation at all.